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Archive 2012 · Nikon D800 announced

  
 
alundeb
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p.12 #1 · Nikon D800 announced


Jman13 wrote:
I guess we will. I can't imagine what distance you're looking at these prints from where you would actually think that looks bad, but perhaps your eyes see things mine do not, or you are just innately more bothered by a lack of insane detail at all viewing distances. There's nothing wrong with that, but I guess I can't understand where you're really coming from, and we'll have to leave it at that. I did try this morning, though to see if I was just fooling myself.



Not trying to continue the discussion, but since you have explained your view in a way I can understand and accept, I may owe you a better explanation of where I am coming from.

Prints with medium resoltuion, in the order of 180 ppi, really bring out to me all the detail there is in an image. I don't need to go really close to see every detail. And if I go close, I don't see more detail, just that there isn't more to see. Prints of the same size with high resolution, 360 ppi, give that very satisfactory feeling that the prints still has more to give. To you, it may be a waste of fine detail, to me it is a qualitative bonus.

Besides, even at normal viewing distance, prints with detail beoynd what we can readily discern, givel another quality to textures than prints where you can see all the details. To check if I fool myself, I downloaded that full size sample from the Nikon website, the one with the model wearing a purple/violet top, and with the leopard. I printed at 360 ppi, which gives approximately 21x14" size. Then I downsampled to 16 MP, which gives a 240 ppi print at the same size. When printing at either 240 or 360 pp with my printer driver options set to "finest detail" there is no interpolation before the raster processor in the printer. They were also sharpened only with a small radius, but different radius for both sizes, so that the acutiy of both prints became equal.

From a normal distance, the leopard fur does look more harsh with the 240 ppi print. If I go closer, I don't see any less detail in the fur at 240 ppi, just that it is a tad more "crunchy". The violet top looks more silky smooth with the 360 ppi. The 240 ppi print from a distance actually seems more detailed, more textured. When going close, I see that some of the true detail have been lost, and in some spots there is a false pattern created by the insufficient resoltuion. This false pattern gives the illusion of more detail, and does not render the feel you would get from looking at that fabric in reality.

These differences may seem silly to care about, but if I can get that little extra bit of quality into my prints without moving to medium format, I am happy about that.



Feb 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM
wiseguy010
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p.12 #2 · Nikon D800 announced


Today I had the chance to use the D800 and D800E for a short time. I surely want to buy one. The Nikon-representative advised me to buy the D800. The D800E is intended for just a small group of people he told me.

Edited on Feb 11, 2012 at 09:56 PM · View previous versions



Feb 11, 2012 at 04:44 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.12 #3 · Nikon D800 announced


wiseguy010 wrote:
Today I had the chance to use the D800 and D800E for a short time. I surely want to but one. The Nikon-representative advised me to buy the D800. The D800E is intended for just a small group of people he told me.


Were you able to compare images from both? If so, I'm just curious what your impressions were.

I would guess the "small group of people" might include many on this forum.



Feb 11, 2012 at 04:48 PM
wiseguy010
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p.12 #4 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Were you able to compare images from both? If so, I'm just curious what your impressions were.

I would guess the "small group of people" might include many on this forum.


No, I was only able to handhold the cameras for a few minutes and take some random pictures (and not able to transfer them to my own memory-cards).

The small group the Nikon-representative was talking about can surely be some people here (highly knowledgeable people that know the ins and outs of moire and anti aliassing).



Feb 11, 2012 at 04:53 PM
mshi
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p.12 #5 · Nikon D800 announced


I am confident that we can remove most of moire in Photoshop in a very quick fashion if we have 14-bit raw files to work with in the first place. Just remember Nikon samples are in 8-bit jpegs. I went back to my original and applied another 30-second quick global fix and here is the result of the golden strips

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7040/6857649379_5d80873a6f_b.jpg



Feb 11, 2012 at 05:17 PM
Lotusm50
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p.12 #6 · Nikon D800 announced


Talking about removing moire, how well does Capture One deal with it? Presumably since the Phase One (P1) back don't have AA filters, they should have got pretty good at it a software solution. You don't hear many P1 users complaining about it.




Feb 11, 2012 at 05:36 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.12 #7 · Nikon D800 announced


mshi wrote:
I am confident that we can remove most of moire in Photoshop in a very quick fashion if we have 14-bit raw files to work with in the first place. Just remember Nikon samples are in 8-bit jpegs. I went back to my original and applied another 30-second quick global fix and here is the result of the golden strips

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7040/6857649379_5d80873a6f_b.jpg


Maybe you are not seeing the real moire problem I do. Here is a section of the golden stripe area blown up showing a terrible "Maze" like digital moire pattern. How do you remove this after the fact in software beyond just blurring the heck out of it? The only solution I can think of is to not record it in the first place (stopping the lens down to F11 for instance on the D800E).

http://www.gibranstudio.com/moire.jpg



Feb 11, 2012 at 06:10 PM
carstenw
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p.12 #8 · Nikon D800 announced


The maze artifacts are still strongly there. For someone who really cares about textiles, this is not a solution...


Feb 11, 2012 at 06:11 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.12 #9 · Nikon D800 announced


To add to the confusion - and what I was trying to figure out earlier with regard to the NIkon Kimono Moire example - here is a 100% crop from the official NIkon D800E sample of the Geisha wearing the Kimono posted on their site. No color moire but more importantly, no maze artifact. File info shows F8 with a NIkkor 50 1.4. So what gives? Is it just a matter of a different angle, different F-stop (the shot is different) OR did Nikon not even use the actual D800E for the shot in their comparison which shows the severe moire? Any ideas?

Edit: I cropped the wrong area. This is the correct area but it still shows no moire.

http://www.gibranstudio.com/moire3.jpg

Here is a 50% reduction of the whole area in question:

http://www.gibranstudio.com/moire4.jpg



Feb 11, 2012 at 06:24 PM
theSuede
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p.12 #10 · Nikon D800 announced


The "moire example shot" was shot at F4.5 and from a greater distance (another target scale) according to someone at Nikon I talked to earlier (not confirmed, but plausible). I'd say that's the main difference... If you'd take the F8.0 shot from the same distance as the moire example shot you'd be right on the edge of getting some nasty stuff included in your scene.

The interpolation engine in CO handles moire a lot better than some other interpolation schemes, the modified AHD algorithm in LR2 was the worst I've ever seen for sensitive cameras. LR3 is better, but not "good" in this aspect. To bad CO sucks in so many other practical ways: I like the color correction tools, the sharpening and the interpolation algorithm - but you have to use something else for library keeping / archiving, and batch processing several batches in a row for different output scales and purposes is a right bother. I can't live with that.

Another comment:
I'd say that that "diffraction limited" F8 shot is pretty sharp. Plenty enough sharp, even if I can't really say I like the Capture NX sharpening "texture". It gets "gritty" very quickly if you're not careful.



Feb 11, 2012 at 08:19 PM
RustyBug
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p.12 #11 · Nikon D800 announced


Tariq Gibran wrote:

So what gives? Is it just a matter of a different angle, different F-stop (the shot is different) OR did Nikon not even use the actual D800E for the shot in their comparison which shows the severe moire? Any ideas?


This is kinda what I was talking about as to its unpredictability.

RustyBug wrote:
you can't fully predict whether or not it'll show up in a given subject.




Feb 12, 2012 at 12:59 AM
alundeb
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p.12 #12 · Nikon D800 announced


theSuede wrote:
The interpolation engine in CO handles moire a lot better than some other interpolation schemes, the modified AHD algorithm in LR2 was the worst I've ever seen for sensitive cameras. LR3 is better, but not "good" in this aspect. To bad CO sucks in so many other practical ways: I like the color correction tools, the sharpening and the interpolation algorithm - but you have to use something else for library keeping / archiving, and batch processing several batches in a row for different output scales and purposes is a right bother. I can't live with that.

.


I am one of those who have chosen to live with CaptureOne, since version 5 Pro.

The library keeping / archiving really sucks, but I have arranged the storage of RAW and TIFF/jpg images on different physical storage units in such a way that the burden of having all images through C1 implicitly creates one level of RAW backup for all images I have processed. Not a perfect solution, but kind of using the extra burden for something else useful.

I don't have any trouble with running different batch recipes (only supported by the Pro version) in a row, but the method for image selection is slow and the output naming and directory must be re-entered for each batch. I guess that is what you mean.

Back to topic: In case you get moire in a few cases only, if you have the RAW file, you say that C1 can be worth a try to rescue as much as you can. It is nice to hear. I don't have any expierence with AA-less files.



Feb 12, 2012 at 03:52 AM
Bifurcator
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p.12 #13 · Nikon D800 announced




At about 00:11:00 into it they show the difference between the 800 and the 800E for people wondering still what that's like.

And about it's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=coqqDJhzico



Feb 12, 2012 at 04:57 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.12 #14 · Nikon D800 announced


Lotusm50 wrote:
Talking about removing moire, how well does Capture One deal with it? Presumably since the Phase One (P1) back don't have AA filters, they should have got pretty good at it a software solution. You don't hear many P1 users complaining about it.



Here is a demonstration of the Capture One Moire tool:




Edit: The Capture One Moire tool will not get rid of a nasty, "maze" pattern such as shown in the Nikon Kimono example that I can see. I don't think there is any post processing way around the worst moire issues...but I would love to be wrong about that.



Feb 12, 2012 at 10:03 AM
carstenw
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p.12 #15 · Nikon D800 announced


Hmm, a 30MP 5:4 shooting mode is interesting. I already have that with my D3, but since I have only 12MP I didn't want to use it. The 1.2x crop and DX modes are also interesting. It seems that even for people for don't want 36MP all the time, there are some interesting options with this camera.

At this time, I am kinda thinking that the D3x is the sweet spot for what I want to do, but the smaller form factor combined with 100% view and video keeps beckoning...



Feb 12, 2012 at 02:33 PM
carstenw
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p.12 #16 · Nikon D800 announced


One question for anyone who knows the answer: the new Lv button/lever is a nice change, but does the D800/E now avoid flipping up and down the mirror all the time?


Feb 12, 2012 at 05:10 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.12 #17 · Nikon D800 announced


Does the D800 have the equivalent of "movie mode" shooting like 5d2 (not sure what it is called since I have a 1ds3) where you can take individual shots while Liveview is enabled so you can focus a lens which might have focus shift stopped down instead of wide open?


Feb 12, 2012 at 05:20 PM
sebboh
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p.12 #18 · Nikon D800 announced


carstenw wrote:
One question for anyone who knows the answer: the new Lv button/lever is a nice change, but does the D800/E now avoid flipping up and down the mirror all the time?


i was wondering about that too.



Feb 12, 2012 at 06:09 PM
snapsy
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p.12 #19 · Nikon D800 announced


sebboh wrote:
i was wondering about that too.


The D7000 doesn't flip the mirror for LV exposures (vs the D90 which did), so I suspect the D800 wont flip it either.



Feb 12, 2012 at 06:14 PM
carstenw
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p.12 #20 · Nikon D800 announced


wayne seltzer wrote:
Does the D800 have the equivalent of "movie mode" shooting like 5d2 (not sure what it is called since I have a 1ds3) where you can take individual shots while Liveview is enabled so you can focus a lens which might have focus shift stopped down instead of wide open?


Can't you hit the depth of field preview while in Lv mode, for focusing?



Feb 12, 2012 at 06:16 PM
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