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Archive 2012 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique

  
 
eSchwab
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p.2 #1 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


And to offer advice or critique; 1, 2, and 4 show nothing of interest. In sports photography timing is absolutely essential. Moment and emotion trump almost everything else. They are more important than proper lighting and color balance. Work on your timing and then start to worry about white balance and lighting. If you have lightroom, learn how to use it. Learn how to use the first section of the develop tab and it'll be enough to get you started.


Feb 06, 2012 at 01:52 PM
P Alesse
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p.2 #2 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


eSchwab wrote:
Everyone has to start somewhere. If your work speaks for itself then you shouldn't be worried about some newb stealing work from you. In this day and age everyone has a camera and tons of people have DSLR's. The people that aren't willing to pay $250 aren't going to pay $30 either. They're going to grab a blurry shot with their cell phone and for them that's good enough. If people aren't willing to pay for your prints/CD, it's either because they don't see the value in it or because they don't see a difference that sets it apart.


Eric... I'm not arguing that everyone needs to start somewhere nor do I think this is work quality issue. I don't have a problem with competition as long as all the professionals competing are on the same level playing field.

A true professional needs to assess many factors before "starting". The business is 10% taking pictures and 90% everything else under the umbrella of CODB which includes customer service, insurance, gear costs, etc. The problem is that newbies don't consider this. They just throw out a price with little to no regard to that other 90%... "Wow I making $30 for what I love."

And my point still remains... that's all fine and dandy. It's going on all over the place. But, don't come here looking for advice from professionals either.

Edited on Feb 06, 2012 at 02:11 PM · View previous versions



Feb 06, 2012 at 02:06 PM
zSCOTTz
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p.2 #3 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


I totally understand what your saying Paul. Im not sure on pricing, I am just guessing right now, we don't have sports shooters in my area that I can compare pricing too. The senior pics and the family pics, I looked at websites of photographers in town, and that is comparable to what they are charging around my area, so that is what I went by. I have no experience doing this, but since I have alot of requests from people to pay me, its kind of hard to turn down. Tim's right, I am only going to do it for friends until I learn the buisness and do whats right. Its not easy using this camera with no knowledge of it at all when I purchased it. Thats the main reason I am on this board, is to learn to use this camera and produce quality pictures so I can charge accordingly and be comfortable doing it. When I do a CD, I might only have 10 pictures on it. I wouldnt be comfortable charging $250 dollars for a CD knowing what I know right now, and putting a bunch of grainy out of focus pictures on it. I figured $30.00 to come out and shoot for an hour, and put about 10 to 15 pics on a CD was ok. Over time, I will learn alot from this board, alot more than I learn in my camera club, and any advice you can give me will be appreciated, but if you don't want too, no harm no foul lol. I am listening to everything you guys tell me, as I have said before, I have zero expericence.


Feb 06, 2012 at 02:10 PM
P Alesse
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p.2 #4 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


zSCOTTz wrote:
I totally understand what your saying Paul. Im not sure on pricing, I am just guessing right now, we don't have sports shooters in my area that I can compare pricing too. The senior pics and the family pics, I looked at websites of photographers in town, and that is comparable to what they are charging around my area, so that is what I went by. I have no experience doing this, but since I have alot of requests from people to pay me, its kind of hard to turn down. Tim's right, I am only going to do it
...Show more

I do commend your positive attitude and will to learn.



Feb 06, 2012 at 02:13 PM
Caleb Williams
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p.2 #5 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


zSCOTTz wrote:
yeah they came out big for some reason, I printed a couple of those in 8 x 10 for my brother and they didnt print out that noisy, I am going to re do them

I don't know whether you are just using Lightroom or also Photoshoto (even Photoshop Elements), but in general, the maximum size you should post here is 900 pixels on the longest end of your photo. If your photo is vertical, then the photo should be 900 pixels high. If they photo is horizontal, then 900 pixels wide.

In Photoshop, you may size photos by going to the Image menu and selecting Image Size. See this tutorial for more:



zSCOTTz wrote:
#4 was shot with a rebel t2i. I did shoot RAW in photos 1 - 3. Im not fully understanding white balance as of yet, so correcting it in lightroom 3 I am just guessing when I mess with the settings as there are alot of custom settings in lightroom.


To put it scientifically, the human eye can see a range of light wavelengths as white, but a camera sees only one wavelength (at a time) as white. White balance is the Kelvin Temperature representation of those wavelengths of light.

In many light sources used in everyday lighting, the white balance stays the same all the time. For instance, if you went to an office building which uses florescent lighting in the entire building and uses the same type of florescent bulbs throughout, you could take a custom white balance reading at one end of the building and use it the whole way through (so long as nothing else changes, like the addition of outside lighting, so in this example, there are no windows). Take a look at https://www.google.com/search?q=Custom+WB+Canon+7D to see a multitude of videos on how to set a custom white balance on your 7D.

Unfortunately, many indoor arenas use lights which "cycle" meaning that the wavelength of light emitted (while it still looks white all the time to the human eye) cycles. I may changes from red to green or yellow to green or something like that, but it makes setting a White Balance that works for the gym all the time a nightmare.

What's worse: some gyms use mixed lighting and have lights that cycle. That is to say, the main lighting in the arena cycles (so every shot is different, WB-wise), but the background is light by florescent lights, so no matter what what the other lights are doing, these lights stay at the same wavelength. Now, you have to correct an image that is red in the foreground and green in the background.

If you want to read more about cycling lights, professional photographer Guy Rhodes has a writeup here: http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873

zSCOTTz wrote:
I have a question about bumping my ISO up to 3200. I get alot of noise at 2000, so with 3200 won't the noise be even worse, and if so, is it correctable in lightroom to make the picture look good? I value all the comments I receive on here, and am really grateful for all the feedback and help I receive on here. I really want to learn as I have a passion for sports and photography, and I want to combine the two.

If you look at noise on a linear scale, then yes, the noise gets worse the higher you set the ISO. What mkchang says above rings true: there are more important things in your image than noise. You can get a Pulizer Prize winning photo with lot's of noise where everything else is correct about the image, but if you're worried about noise and the picture is all blurry and out of focus, then you won't get that Pulizer Prize.



Feb 06, 2012 at 02:14 PM
jakita33
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p.2 #6 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


Is it wrong to ask for advice on this forum if you are not a professional sports photographer or aspire to be one? Unfortunately, I am a lawyer, and I just started taking pictures of my 5-year-old son playing flag football and basketball. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and was planning on posting some pics and asking for help but then I read this thread. The reason that I am not so sure now is that I often share the pics I take with other parents on the team. At the end of the year I will give them some action shots of their kids. Last season another parent and I put together a photobook for all the coaches. I don't charge any money for the pics and give them to the other parents becuase we have become friends over the course of the season. As far as I know there aren't any professional photographers taking pictures at these games, but even if there was, I don't know how that would affect my thoughts on this.

While I would like to get help from all the great photographers on this board, I don't want to feel like I am pulling the wool over anyone's eyes asking for help because I give some of my photos away. If you think that this is a problem, I can just remain a lurker.



Feb 06, 2012 at 02:35 PM
zSCOTTz
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p.2 #7 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


Thanks alot guys, Ive learned alot just in todays post. And Paul, you can bash me anytime about anything I do, its the only way I am going to learn, I have thick skin. I dont mind any bashing or critiquing I get from any member, its just fuels me to learn and get even better. About the pricing, I understand what your saying now. I work in a factory, where, I make one amount, because I have been there 18 years. If we hire someone to do the same job as me, they make alot less for the same job, because they are just starting. I was looking at my pricing from that angle, I understand what your saying now. I am only going to shoot for friends at my current prices until I feel I am ready. I can do that, because these friends I do this for, come over to help me roof my house for free, or help me with drywall for free, so its a trade off, only I am making money though, what little it is lol. I can tell you I have learned more today, on here, than I have being in a camera club for the last 8 months. I cant wait to go out and shoot the High School basketball games this week and apply what I have learned today, to my shooting. Thanks for everyones advice and help on here.


Feb 06, 2012 at 02:39 PM
BillP57
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p.2 #8 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


The WB setting compensates for the quality of the light you were shooting with and that is generally measured as the Temperature of the light source. So the Temp slider in LR would adjust WB. This will have to be adjusted in combination with the Tint slider and getting the color correct will take some practice.

As mentioned above the noise will (generally) be much worse if you brighten a dark photo than if you increased the ISO an got the exposure right in camera. I regularly shoot basketball with a Canon 7D at ISO 6400, SS1/500, f 2.2 and get usable photos processed in LR. I have not found a HS gym around me that would let me get anywhere near ISO 2000 (I think I'd need sunglasses).



Feb 06, 2012 at 02:52 PM
mkchang
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p.2 #9 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


Couple more suggestions:

1) Shoot center point focus only
2) Put auto focus on the back button (in your case *, I think)
3) Shoot in manual mode.



Feb 06, 2012 at 03:45 PM
Caleb Williams
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p.2 #10 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


jakita33 wrote:
Is it wrong to ask for advice on this forum if you are not a professional sports photographer or aspire to be one? Unfortunately, I am a lawyer, and I just started taking pictures of my 5-year-old son playing flag football and basketball. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and was planning on posting some pics and asking for help but then I read this thread. The reason that I am not so sure now is that I often share the pics I take with other parents on the team. At the end of the year
...Show more
I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much, but please remember that people send their 40-hour work week (yes, I know that photographers don't punch at at 40 hours and call it a week).

There may be no professional photographers covering the games in which your son plays, but eventually whether it's your kid or someone else's, there will be a photographer later on and by giving work away for free now, you set up other parents to say: "Well, when my son was 5, I got photos for free, so when he's playing for the middle school team, why aren't your photos free. After all, you're just clicking a button."

One litmus test you can use to determine if you should be giving away work for free is to imagine yourself in your regular occupation and decide whether you would do that work for free for this organization.

For instance, if you are a lawyer, you give free legal advice or representation to a parent on your child's team. If the answer is no, then you should give away free photos either. If nothing else, at least pool the parents together to cover the cost of the book(s).



Feb 06, 2012 at 03:52 PM
zSCOTTz
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p.2 #11 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


I understand what the professional photographers are saying with the pay thing, but I have to tell you, its just not photography that is getting hurt. I work in a town where the auto industry is huge, and people that make 30 to 40 dollars an hour are now having to take pay cuts to 15 - 18 dollars an hour, and these are union jobs. I work in a factory, but make vinyl siding, so its not the auto industry, but we have laid off over 50 people, some of it due to automated machines we have recieved, and no longer need as many people to make the product. Thats just a fact of life. The digital camera reveloution has probably ruined photography careers for alot of people, as the technology has evolved and made taking quality pictures easier as you no longer need a dark room, and film, you can just churn em out with your computer, and get a decent looking product that alot of moms and dads are satisfied with. Wedding photography is probably the most expensive photography in our area, and I have people I work with whose children are getting married and they talk about they would never ever pay thousands of dollars to hire a photographer, that they can go without and just use their point and shoots to capture the wedding. Working class people who are facing cuts in pay and loss of jobs just arent going to pay alot of money for certain things anymore, everyone is tightening their belts. It would be nice to have those awsome wedding photos, but to them thats just a luxury they can't afford anymore.Caleb Williams wrote:
I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much, but please remember that people send their 40-hour work week (yes, I know that photographers don't punch at at 40 hours and call it a week).

There may be no professional photographers covering the games in which your son plays, but eventually whether it's your kid or someone else's, there will be a photographer later on and by giving work away for free now, you set up other parents to say: "Well, when my son was 5, I got photos for free, so when he's playing for the middle school team,
...Show more



Feb 06, 2012 at 04:23 PM
zSCOTTz
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p.2 #12 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


Jakita, as a former little league baseball coach, I think putting a photo album together for the coaches is a great idea. You have to remember, were not getting paid to go out their and teach your kids the sport of baseball, and the fundementals, and put up with certain parents who think their kids are going to go pro, and why arent they playing more. We volunteer our time, and its alot of time and work to do this, so giving a free photo album of action shots during the season to a coach is alright in my book, I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated.jakita33 wrote:
Is it wrong to ask for advice on this forum if you are not a professional sports photographer or aspire to be one? Unfortunately, I am a lawyer, and I just started taking pictures of my 5-year-old son playing flag football and basketball. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and was planning on posting some pics and asking for help but then I read this thread. The reason that I am not so sure now is that I often share the pics I take with other parents on the team. At the end of the year
...Show more



Feb 06, 2012 at 04:37 PM
gschlact
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p.2 #13 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


Some additional comments to add for the OP.
I agree that the photos are somewhat soft. But realize I am not saying OOF (out of focus). Several items mentioned above could contribute to the softness- high cropping, poor downsampling, noise/or it's reduction (NR), shutter speed where 1/300 can work, but 1/640 is sharper.

A couple of things not mentioned is lens quality (I can't see exit from this iPad). Was it L glass, did you turn IS off? Another important thing not yet mentioned is shooting technique. Make sure you are not rushing the shutter press- make sure you continue to track the game so that you are ready to shoot, otherwise you find youself potentially shooting as you are still moving or stabilizing the camera. So remember to follow the action, be ready, and keep the camera stable and body still and balanced.

Best of luck on your journey.

Guy



Feb 06, 2012 at 11:12 PM
Scott Sewell
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p.2 #14 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


eSchwab wrote:
Everyone has to start somewhere. If your work speaks for itself then you shouldn't be worried about some newb stealing work from you. In this day and age everyone has a camera and tons of people have DSLR's. The people that aren't willing to pay $250 aren't going to pay $30 either. They're going to grab a blurry shot with their cell phone and for them that's good enough. If people aren't willing to pay for your prints/CD, it's either because they don't see the value in it or because they don't see a difference that sets it apart.




I don't get it. Assuming the work of two different photographers is virtually indistinguishable to the normal client and one (Photog A) is offering a shoot/burn CD at $250 and the other (Photog B) is offering the same thing for $30. Do you really not believe that will not affect Photo A's business? Heck, I'd venture to say if Photog B's work was half as good as that of Photog A's, that the pricing difference would have an affect on sales for Photog A.

Who hasn't experienced this first-hand? I know I have. In fact, one local fauxtographer in particular (his initials happen to be the same as mine and he even has the same first name), always comes up to me when we're out and about and asks me for advice and tips. I've caught him trying to confuse people with his name--trying to get people to think my images are his--and he's undercut the market to the point that I've seen some affect. I gladly take the challenge, however, and have gone into "cock roach photography" mode, meaning I will do everything I can to outshoot, outlast and outsell him in the long run. Frankly, it's helped me step up my game and focus my efforts in one particular are of my photography, so I'm fine with that. But I'm not about to give the guy an ounce of advice or do anything to help him become a better shooter.

So, I agree with Paul on all points, but especially his point about giving away you work and coming here asking for C&C and other tips. It just doesn't fly. In this case, the OP seems to be taking this all in the positive vein it was intended and I hope it helps him (and others) somewhere down the road.



Feb 07, 2012 at 01:00 AM
John Patrick
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p.2 #15 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


jakita33 wrote:
Is it wrong to ask for advice on this forum if you are not a professional sports photographer or aspire to be one? Unfortunately, I am a lawyer, and I just started taking pictures of my 5-year-old son playing flag football and basketball. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and was planning on posting some pics and asking for help but then I read this thread. The reason that I am not so sure now is that I often share the pics I take with other parents on the team. At the end of the year
...Show more

Jason, feel free to post photos and ask for advice. The thing that's going on with the OP is that he's asking for advice, but he's also made it known (via his posts and weblink) that he charges for photos for others. If you're shooting your child or even your child's team, and want advice on that, no problem. Once you start selling yourself out as a "pro" photographer (whether you think of yourself as one or not, as soon as you charge, BAM!), to come in and ask for advice while severely undercutting the market is, well, rude.

It's kind of like saying "I like to work on cars in my spare time" and decide to charge $20 to change your friend's brakes. You only charge $20 because you've only done it a few times, it takes a bit longer, and besides, you have a day job already, so you really don't need the money.

A friend brings in a Fiat, and since you've never worked on one before, you head to your local professional mechanic and ask him for advice on what tools to use, how to do it, etc. You want him to give you--for free!--valuable advice that he uses to charge $200+ to replace brakes so you can charge only $20. It doesn't seem right, does it?

That's what's causing the non-hostile roasting right now. Amateurs can feel free to ask and get advice. Heck, stop me at one of my events and ask me for the shooting conditions, and I'll give you the WB and exposure. I've been known to set up cameras for parents as well. But if I find out that you're now selling those shots.... Oh, boy.

John



Feb 07, 2012 at 02:12 AM
Scott Sewell
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p.2 #16 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


John Patrick wrote:
Jason, feel free to post photos and ask for advice. The thing that's going on with the OP is that he's asking for advice, but he's also made it known (via his posts and weblink) that he charges for photos for others. If you're shooting your child or even your child's team, and want advice on that, no problem. Once you start selling yourself out as a "pro" photographer (whether you think of yourself as one or not, as soon as you charge, BAM!), to come in and ask for advice while severely undercutting the market is, well, rude.

It's
...Show more


And it's John Patrick FTW!!!



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:18 AM
sandman22
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p.2 #17 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


John you should have posted a few days ago and this thread would be alot shorter...great post!


Feb 07, 2012 at 09:34 AM
jakita33
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p.2 #18 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


John Patrick wrote:
Jason, feel free to post photos and ask for advice. The thing that's going on with the OP is that he's asking for advice, but he's also made it known (via his posts and weblink) that he charges for photos for others. If you're shooting your child or even your child's team, and want advice on that, no problem. Once you start selling yourself out as a "pro" photographer (whether you think of yourself as one or not, as soon as you charge, BAM!), to come in and ask for advice while severely undercutting the market is, well, rude.

It's
...Show more

Sounds great! I understand exactly what you are saying. 95% of my pictures are for me and the photobooks my wife makes, I mean asks, that I make her. Now that my son is playing more sports, I could use a little help, espicially with basketball shots. I will post some soon. Thanks again.



Feb 07, 2012 at 09:35 AM
John Patrick
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p.2 #19 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


sandman22 wrote:
John you should have posted a few days ago and this thread would be alot shorter...great post!


Sorry, the event this past weekend and the 60,000+ photos created then have kept me busy.

I'll try not to slack off, again.

John



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:39 AM
P Alesse
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p.2 #20 · New Sports Photographer needs Critique


John Patrick wrote:
Sorry, the event this past weekend and the 60,000+ photos created then have kept me busy.

I'll try not to slack off, again.

John


Oh and BTW John... there was also a little bit of a football game on Sunday night in case you didn't hear.



Feb 07, 2012 at 10:58 AM
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