jneilosu wrote:
Pay your lawyer for an hour of his/her time to read this over. Ask them to compare your contract and these demanded revisions. He/she will inevitably find a few things that aren't best for you and make suggestions on how to change it. However, some these changes may actually be good and useful going forward, so your contract may be stronger, but still in your favor, next time you run across Mr./Mrs. Counsel Client.
This.
I wouldn't agree to these contract changes without legal advice. A tweak here and there, maybe, but not this.
sivrajbm wrote:
If you negotiate do so with your lawyer's help. These folks are playing for keeps. Don't Bring A Knife To A Gunfight....
This is good advice imho. This guys sounds like he knows contract law, or at least how to turn a contract in his favor. The contract should be fair and protect both parties. If on the off chance you decide to negotiate, i would consider they have brought their lawyer to the table and you should bring yours. As others have stated this is just the opening offer he is making and likely expects you to counter.
Chris Cooke wrote:
As you can tell they want everything in black and white but will exploit the gray areas to their benefit. Rewriting a contract proves that they believe that the contract is NOT in their best interest but yours and they want to make sure THEY have the upper hand, not you.
I would send an email that says you have been commissioned for another job on their requested day and thank them for their time.
For this reason and the copyright changes I would decline.
Honestly, I don't see this as a lot of money to deal with this type of potential client. With that said, I would do as the others stated and counter with a much more expensive offering with the changes they requested. In other words, allow them to have it their way (if it isn't hurting you), but charge them for it.
I would tell them that my contract is not open to negotiation, take it or leave it. I have been open to keeping images private upon request but no changes were made to the actual contract. It's great when you have clients who trust you will keep your word about what you will and won't do with their images.
EVO088 wrote:
Hey Brian, I've actually met a few "difficult" clients in the past but guess what .. they turn out to be one of my best clients!
Hey Brian, I've actually met a few "difficult" clients in the past but guess what .. they turned out to be even bigger PITAs than I imagined!
Yes, I did have some good experiences with clients where we started off on the wrong foot, but the good to bad outcome ratio wasn't working in my favor. I got to the point that I trusted my instincts. Wedding photography was not my main income stream so I was in a situation that I could walk away with little economic impact. Since I was turning away wedding business, I could usually fill the slot with less difficult clients. If the slot went unfilled, that was OK too since I was working too many weekends anyway.
Ummmm, I've had a handful of lawyer clients and none of them have ever asked to edit my contract (first of all, it sounds like your contract doesn't state some basic things that it should)... But as soon as I read the dollar amounts in question, I thought 'really, this is a large, profitable situation?' ... No way would I alter my contract like that for someone.
If you show any halfway decent lawyer any contract they will have an opinion on the strengths and weaknesses of the contract and suggest changes. Law is more of an art than a science and open to interpretation, that's what judges are for!... Looks like he found some loopholes to question, you could consider yourself lucky that he didn't exploit them to his advantage, but told you about them so you could change them if needed.
I see that you said "I'm not giving away my art", ok then put a price on it!
Counter offer and see what they say. Would 2x the fee make you happier?
What is the value to you, are you going to license the pics to DeBeers or the Acme Wedding Dress Co? Are they valuable for stock sales?
Don't most photographers include a disc with rights to make prints anyhow, so the copyright thing is not restricting prints? I understand how copyright works in advertising and corporate and editorial work but not so much about the wedding world...
Maybe he's a SOB, PITA lawyer that you don;t want to work with anyway.
Maybe he saw that you had a holey contract written by an Uncle Bob or cobbled together from various internet websites. Maybe that's helpful I dunno.
Sounds like you made up your mind but it's a interesting scenario.
Brian Virts wrote:
Anyone care to write a perfect, eloquent NO response email to this?
"Regarding your request to make changes to the contract, we do not alter our contract. If you are still interested in having us for your photographer, your date is still open at this time. BV."
OR
"After having a look at your requested changes to the contract, we feel that our company would not be a good fit to handle your photography needs. Best of luck to you in the future. BV."
marti.g3 wrote:
To give up your copyright and then to have to get permission from them so you can use your own images for simple promotional purposes is not something I would agree to for what they are paying. If they want copyright ownership then they should have to pay additionally for that right.
I understand the attachment we have to our pictures, but what use do the vast majority of us have after the wedding is over and pictures are delivered besides promotional?
Sure, they should pay extra for the copyright, but a perpetual, non-exclusive usage right is an easy thing to put in the contract in return, so they don't decide later to not allow you to use the pictures.
SGallant wrote:
This is good advice imho ... i would consider they have brought their lawyer to the table and you should bring yours.
Man, why even BOTHER. Unless the original poster is really hard up for money, be thankful they showed their hand now before you got in too deep. Dump 'em!
Whoa. You do have a couple holes they pointed out, but this couple sounds a bit too difficult for me. I've had a few clients who were lawyers look over my contract. Twice I've been asked for privacy to change my copyright terms saying exactly what I could use the images for (portfolio, website, sample albums) and that any other use I would need to get written permission from the clients. That sounded acceptable to me, so I did it. And I have gone back to them to get permission for other use, and it turned out they were thrilled to let me. They just had an initial fear of the unknown things I could do, and I get that. But I would NEVER just hand over copyright. The only other thing I got asked to change by a lawyer client was that if hubby and I broke up, they could get out of the contract. That made me chuckle, but I did it. Whatever. Last year I got asked by a really annoying bride to change an entire list of things I wasn't comfortable with, and I backed out nicely, and she responded nicely. I had a bad feeling about the couple and I trusted my gut. I booked another wedding in it's place and went on with my life. Another time I didn't trust my gut and kept a difficult client, and I have regretted it deeply. I say go with your gut, they are either just a bit uneasy and need some reassurance, or they are crazy controlling difficult people that will only give you a headache and make you lose too much sleep worrying about them.
Some of you don't get that this is NOT from the actual COUPLE. It's from the PARENT.
After reading that email, I would not want the risk of working with such a FOB/G. While he may just be trying to put the fear of litigation in you, it's just not worth the risk if he's that anal IMO.
This following response is off to a good start. However, I would replace much of it with letting him know I was not declining based on fear, but rather concern of what could arise if one images is not exactly perfect in HIS eyes. Also, keep it short. A phone call (after gathering your thoughts) may be the best course of action.
jneilosu wrote:
Client,
I can certainly appreciate that you have a deep understanding of contract law and that you want to ensure you are protected in a way that comforts you regarding your wedding images. However, it looks as though it may be in our best interest to part ways. As you know, my images put food on my table. While I have no immediate intentions of selling images from your wedding, it is definitely possible in the future. Suppose your wedding images turn out fantastic, and a national publication seeks me out and offers me a four-digit commission to feature some of them. Or what if a few of them represent my brand so well I want to run an ad using them? Wedding photography is a unique art in that the final product involves the client. However, it is the industry standard that the images are the property of the photographer, for reasons such a those listed above.
Nevertheless, I'm confident you will find someone willing to forfeit their full copyright to you, adjust their payment terms, etc. I would suggest searching Craigslist. I the meantime, I'm off to book a client on your date that will continue to benefit my business long after final payment..
dmacmillan wrote:
I've actually met a few "difficult" clients in the past but guess what .. they turned out to be even bigger PITAs than I imagined!
Yes, I did have some good experiences with clients where we started off on the wrong foot, but the good to bad outcome ratio wasn't working in my favor. I got to the point that I trusted my instincts.
Agree with you here. In hindsight, the clients who were trouble later on, did give me some "concerns" at the initial contacts/consultations.
D. Diggler wrote:
Man, why even BOTHER. Unless the original poster is really hard up for money, be thankful they showed their hand now before you got in too deep. Dump 'em!
I couldn't agree more. In my position, based upon the initial meeting as it was described and the changes requested to the contract I would absolutely walk away from this without a second thought.
However, I am not sure of the OP's position. Perhaps the $2500 is needed, and if the OP decides to pursue negotiations I don't think they should be done without a lawyer at the point this is at.
Chris Cooke wrote:
As you can tell they want everything in black and white but will exploit the gray areas to their benefit. Rewriting a contract proves that they believe that the contract is NOT in their best interest but yours and they want to make sure THEY have the upper hand, not you.
If you're going to try to negotiate a compromise with your client, I fully agree with the advice to do it with a lawyer.
However, this will likely be at least a $500.00 expense for the consultation and contract re-write. And, who knows how much back and forth between your lawyer and your client will be involved.
So, is the cost associated with gaining this client really worth it?
