BTW -- I married to a lawyer. My advice has nothing to do with "lawyer clients are bad", it just doesn't make good business sense to take on this particular client.
You said yourself, "at the client interview I got the feeling that they were a little difficult". Initial instincts are usually correct.
Finally, the real deal breaker for me would be the insistence on binding arbitration. You should never agree to binding arbitration in any contract, especially when you are running a business. It completely strips away your full access to the court system should something go wrong.
I actually agree with Beau on this one. Id simply respond back stating how I'd like to retain the image copyrights, and see what happens from there. No need to throw away $2500.
If he is still adamant about keeping the copyright after that though, simply stand your ground and tell him you arent the photographer for him.
It's funny how quick they change their mind after that.
Brian Virts wrote:
I was very happy to find out that you have no intention to sell the wedding photos or to use for commercial purpose other than the promotional purpose; in this case, it is much simpler to transfer the copyright ownership to the CLIENT in order to prevent any usage that can be harmful to the CLIENT.
Holy crap that is a ballsy rights grab.
vawill84 wrote:
I actually agree with Beau on this one. Id simply respond back stating how I'd like to retain the image copyrights, and see what happens from there. No need to throw away $2500.
If he is still adamant about keeping the copyright after that though, simply stand your ground and tell him you arent the photographer for him.
It's funny how quick they change their mind after that.
In that scenario the bride may kick back at her overprotective father if she still wants you which might work.
keithdunlop wrote:
Finally, the real deal breaker for me would be the insistence on binding arbitration. You should never agree to binding arbitration in any contract, especially when you are running a business. It completely strips away your full access to the court system should something go wrong.
Yes, it's funny how binding arbitration is always brought up by the giant company with the team of lawyers or the guy with the law degree.
Hey Brian, I've actually met a few "difficult" clients in the past but guess what .. they turn out to be one of my best clients!
If they are lawyers, this could be the first offer! counter what was written to you with something down the middle of the road that can satisfy both parties!
example, as for privacy .. say something like, I do understand each clients want for privacy, so what I can do is use only max of 10 images instead of my normal 50 images and I would not tag their names.
Of course this is just me, but it doesn't hurt to try .. at least at the end if you guys can't come to an agreement, you wont look difficult by just flat out saying "NO"
Pay your lawyer for an hour of his/her time to read this over. Ask them to compare your contract and these demanded revisions. He/she will inevitably find a few things that aren't best for you and make suggestions on how to change it. However, some these changes may actually be good and useful going forward, so your contract may be stronger, but still in your favor, next time you run across Mr./Mrs. Counsel Client.
HOWEVER, you send this response no matter what your lawyer says:
Client,
I can certainly appreciate that you have a deep understanding of contract law and that you want to ensure you are protected in a way that comforts you regarding your wedding images. However, it looks as though it may be in our best interest to part ways. As you know, my images put food on my table. While I have no immediate intentions of selling images from your wedding, it is definitely possible in the future. Suppose your wedding images turn out fantastic, and a national publication seeks me out and offers me a four-digit commission to feature some of them. Or what if a few of them represent my brand so well I want to run an ad using them? Wedding photography is a unique art in that the final product involves the client. However, it is the industry standard that the images are the property of the photographer, for reasons such a those listed above.
Nevertheless, I'm confident you will find someone willing to forfeit their full copyright to you, adjust their payment terms, etc. I would suggest searching Craigslist. I the meantime, I'm off to book a client on your date that will continue to benefit my business long after final payment..
Sincerely,
----
Okay, I made it thru the first paragraph semi-serious, and maybe you can green something from that. But man, how sweet would it be to send the whole thing.... Seriously tho, run away, but in the most self respecting and cordial way.
keithdunlop wrote:
BTW -- I married to a lawyer. My advice has nothing to do with "lawyer clients are bad", it just doesn't make good business sense to take on this particular client.
You said yourself, "at the client interview I got the feeling that they were a little difficult". Initial instincts are usually correct.
Yeah, thanks for all the feedback. I'm struggling with the balance of constructing a counter offer and just walking away. You know, I just start to glaze over when things get this far out there. I know there is probably opportunity here to come to some type of agreement, but I'm not giving away my art, and I'm not forfeiting my legal posture.
This is all very interesting. I've been debating spending some money to have a lawyer look over my contract as the one I've been using is probably full of holes I can't even begin to imagine.
One of the last couples I met with was in law school and started to look deep at the fine print. Haven't received any major changes to the contract such as this yet though.
EVERY experience I have had with clients (or potential clients) that are Lawyers werent good!
As you can tell they want everything in black and white but will exploit the gray areas to their benefit. Rewriting a contract proves that they believe that the contract is NOT in their best interest but yours and they want to make sure THEY have the upper hand, not you.
I would send an email that says you have been commissioned for another job on their requested day and thank them for their time.
keithdunlop wrote:
Walk away. Give up all rights to your images for $2,500? Plus, why would you want clients that are setting you up to be sued the second you appear to violate even the tiniest aspect of "his" contract.
I would reply something like this: "Dear ________, while I fully appreciate the time and energy that went into crafting the various alterations to my contract that you suggest, I regret that I cannot agree to these changes. I believe that you would be better served by another photographer for your daughter's wedding. Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you, and my best wishes for a terrific wedding day. Sincerely, [you].
The dad is clearly a litigator, so don't get into to much detail in your message. Just politely say "thank you for your time" and move on....Show more →
Brian, I'd go with Keith's suggestion here. If you even try to negotiate in reply to this, they're going to push harder. Probably now, and definitely later. Hold your own and if they come back there might be very small negotiations, but on your terms and with a large fee added in for your lawyer (which would also include the extra work for yourself).
WOWSER...!!! RUN DON'T WALK TO THE NEAREST EXIT. SERIOUSLY, If you negotiate do so with your lawyer's help. These folks are playing for keeps. Don't Bring A Knife To A Gunfight....
Another way you may be able to politely decline is to tell them you don't neccesarily agree with their changes and you would only feel comfortbable making any changes by having your own lawyer look at it. The additional charge and inconvenience of having to go through all that is not going to be worth it(even if you don't intend to do that). Your contract doesn't have to be take it or leave it but the extent that they disagree with your terms is alarming. I agree with whoever mentioned it but the moment something isn't exactly right I would expect you will end up in court. Thanks but no thanks...for me at least.
Mohaimen Kazi wrote:
Wow dude, uhh unless you really need the money I wouldn't do it.
On a separate note, I had a client of mine re-write my contract. For the good actually. Her job is to write contracts for patients so the wordings were AMAZING! So pretty much a free deal for me. I couldn't thank her more!
Sorry you gotta go through this w/ your client though man.
Problem is patients = clients, doctors/hospital = photographer, so your contract may be re-written favorably for the clients
