Let's say you do very well at mkting and designing albums
Let's say that you know you can make $1K in one day in album design
So you need 6-8 togs where they have shoot rights and you have album rights
$150K for 150 days of album design and then play golf
Second shooting can be lucrative because someone else is doing the work
If they are driven to shoot, they'll take the advice and become one of your 6-8 photographers, because fear of not being able to shoot a wedding on their own or getting sick where the team can bail them out
Some interesting advise going on back and forth between Yes and No. I have a question for all. Go back in time and remember HOW you started in this business? How YOU struggled to get work. Who helped you get better? How many times did you ask yourserf "why am I doing this?" or "I wish I could get someone to show me or help me?" I do understand the dilema about putting ones good pictures for someone else to shoot. Whey you where starting out in the business, did you have the same issue "what if they want to use my pictures?"
If you and the other person are TRUELY friends and want to stay friends (either way) be honest with the person. You stated you are like a mentor, then be one or not. Don't stand in the middle and use it as an excuse.
I will probably get flamed for this, by "who are you and what gives you the right to question us?" and you are 10000000% correct. I know that wedding photographer is not the same as a soccer coach. But the concept is the same. I consider myself a very good coach, a very good coach trainer and have done pretty well in our soccer community. When I see coaches struggle with thier attempts, I can either bitch at how "BAD" they are and walk away. Or I can pass on my knowledge and educate them. I chose the latter and both the coach and kids benefit from it.
Sorry to throw my OUT OF BOUNDs thoughts, but that is from my perspective
sboerup wrote:
Just say no...........to requests that undermine your value.
I guess I do not understand why doing this would undermine a person's value. If 1) your name is not attached to the work (apart from any of the work you decide to put on your site), 2) you are there operating under someone else's name and not your own, and 3) no one has a flippin' clue (or cares) who you are since you are the (supposedly) silent second...I am not sure what harm would be in helping a person out.
qwyjibo wrote:
Frankly, I think the bigger question is around what sort of advice you need to give to your friend/mentee.
+1000
What if the lady logged onto FM and posted this:
"Hi I'm Sally. I finally got a nice paid wedding gig and I'm a little nervous. I have a Nikon D40 and a couple really nice kit lenses. Shooting in .jpg makes editting in PS Elements soooooooo much easier. I actually just prefer to deliver my pics right from the camera though since editting really isn't my thing.
I have a friend here that I really want to 2nd shoot for me. He hasn't told me yes or no. He's been really helpful to me...kinda like a mentor. I'd love it if he'd show me the ropes on this wedding and I offered him $300 for his help. I'm not sure if he wants to do it. How can I convince him to come along? I've been told even my family sessions are pretty bad, so I don't want to ruin this couple's wedding."
After 5 pages of putting this lady's head on a stick, the thread would finally be locked. And there are those still recommending he should do it.
joelconner wrote:
I guess I do not understand why doing this would undermine a person's value. If 1) your name is not attached to the work (apart from any of the work you decide to put on your site), 2) you are there operating under someone else's name and not your own, and 3) no one has a flippin' clue (or cares) who you are since you are the (supposedly) silent second...I am not sure what harm would be in helping a person out.
You clearly forget this is the "Red Flag & No" forum.
FWIW I TOTALLY agree with you. When I've second shot I offer my first name up at the most... I certainly don't mention my own business, etc. etc.
Besides... as usual there's the "howmuchyourebooked" bias. If you're booked solid and turning people away... in a way you're kind of like that highly hairstyled dude who wanted to make a $10,000 bet and said he made a small income of $350K doing speeches. Your experience might not parallel that of peeps whose calendar has bigger holes
"Hi I'm Sally. I finally got a nice paid wedding gig and I'm a little nervous. I have a Nikon D40 and a couple really nice kit lenses. Shooting in .jpg makes editting in PS Elements soooooooo much easier. I actually just prefer to deliver my pics right from the camera though since editting really isn't my thing.
I have a friend here that I really want to 2nd shoot for me. He hasn't told me yes or no. He's been really helpful to me...kinda like a mentor. I'd love it if he'd show me the ropes on this wedding and I offered him $300 for his help. I'm not sure if he wants to do it. How can I convince him to come along? I've been told even my family sessions are pretty bad, so I don't want to ruin this couple's wedding."
After 5 pages of putting this lady's head on a stick, the thread would finally be locked. And there are those still recommending he should do it. ...Show more →
Your argument does nothing to explain why the heck one would say no. It just speaks to the ridiculousness of a board that:
1. is largely fixated in finding red flags and reasons to say no
2. tells inexperienced noobs that they should second shoot before shooting primary
3. tells noobs that want to second shoot that it's not in their interest to train their competition, so no second shoot opportunity
etc.
Please let me understand the logic here....
Assume you are AVAILABLE and you CAN USE THE MONEY. Also assume that you're either capable of shooting JPG or you have software that can convert from RAW to JPG easily quickly therefore not creating a burden for you. Please don't get fixated on the ridiculous differentiation between RAW and JPG.
1. You got a call and a client said "I'd like you to shoot this event for me, X hours, I'd prefer if you shoot JPG and just deliver unprocessed images. Would you do it, and how much would you charge me?"
2. You get a call and it's another photographer who says "I'd like you to shoot this event with me, X hours, I'd prefer if you shoot JPG and just deliver unprocessed images. Would you do it, and how much would you charge me?"
In case 1, presumably you answer YES and provide a quote.
Why is it that in case 2 you suddenly need to know the level of expertise of the photographer in order to decide if they are worthy to pay you an amount of money you're happy with for you to spend the same X hours working for them?
There is a lot more to shooting a wedding than just shooting a wedding. Maybe some of her skills could use some refinement but I am sure that is true of all of us. Everybody was a beginner once. I agree, if she is a friend do it just make sure there are provisions in place to protect your name, etc. If she has all the marketing and people skills that others don't and is able to do a decent job photographically, she will likely probably find a niche and find some amount of success. Probably more success than someone with better skills photographically, but without the people and marketing skills.
lisy78 wrote:
Your argument does nothing to explain why the heck one would say no. It just speaks to the ridiculousness of a board that:
1. is largely fixated in finding red flags and reasons to say no
2. tells inexperienced noobs that they should second shoot before shooting primary
3. tells noobs that want to second shoot that it's not in their interest to train their competition, so no second shoot opportunity
etc.
Please let me understand the logic here....
Assume you are AVAILABLE and you CAN USE THE MONEY. Also assume that you're either capable of shooting JPG or you have software that can convert from RAW to JPG easily quickly therefore not creating a burden for you. Please don't get fixated on the ridiculous differentiation between RAW and JPG.
1. You got a call and a client said "I'd like you to shoot this event for me, X hours, I'd prefer if you shoot JPG and just deliver unprocessed images. Would you do it, and how much would you charge me?"
2. You get a call and it's another photographer who says "I'd like you to shoot this event with me, X hours, I'd prefer if you shoot JPG and just deliver unprocessed images. Would you do it, and how much would you charge me?"
In case 1, presumably you answer YES and provide a quote.
Why is it that in case 2 you suddenly need to know the level of expertise of the photographer in order to decide if they are worthy to pay you an amount of money you're happy with for you to spend the same X hours working for them?...Show more →
The point isn't if he should 2nd. The larger issue you're ignoring is whether she should be shooting 1st. The answer is clearly no. All this talk about him diluting his image, ruining his rep, etc., etc. is irrelevant. I mentioned in my very first post that if she was some random asking for him to shoot, then $300 probably makes plenty of sense if there wasn't anything better to do.
The point is...she's not a random...she's his friend. And he knows just how bad her work is. From his own description, SHE has no business shooting this wedding. So as her friend and teacher, he needs to tell her so. Not saying otherwise or worse...2nd shooting this disaster...is not the answer.
Your first three points don't have anything to do with this scenario. The primary is the inexperienced noob, not the OP. So it's not a matter of discouraging him from acting as 2nd. It's a matter of his obligation to discourage her to act as a 1st.
Your last two points don't have anything to do with this scenario because he's neither dealing with a prospective client nor a fellow photographer (assuming she's as bad as he says). He's dealing with a friend that by his own accord is in way over her head.
Obviously she trusts you and value your experience to ask you to 2nd shoot for her. Plus, it probably makes her feels a little safer knowing she has someone there to back her up. $300 may not be alot of money but it is $300 more than what you currently got. If you truly want to help her then help her.
If you're offended that she booked a wedding and asking you to be her 2nd then you need to get over yourself. I agree with lisy78, the bride has made her choice and whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. You can be a friend and help her out and that means beyond just telling her what to do.
If she's not worthy enough friend to help then just be straight up honest about your opinion.
Considering the time it takes to prep my 3 cameras, their custom settings, and operation, to charge the double a's and camera batteries, to prep the 30+ gig in cards, to get the lights ready and pack the bags and load the car-- that is to prep as if I' m shooting a 10 hour wedding on my own
$300 isn't worth getting in the car
I would do $500 + album residuals for just a few hours (2 - 3 at the most for that)
That is how I work with my seconds and it should be quid pro quo for pros
The only way I 'd help a friend for $300 with this is if I felt the friend was good enough to pay $500 + album residuals the next event
In this specific thread we are not seeing that possibility
So the answer is no
It is a lot of work to prep and have the shooting experience to do it solo if you had to and do it right
A friend is a friend, but $300 isn't the ticket I want to help a friend more than once, with a clear understanding that $300 is not enough, and a high probability that more would be provided at the next event
In other words, expect to receive what you expect to pay your seconds who are chosen because in a jam they can shoot the whole thing solo
marti.g3 wrote:
"Prep my cameras" ? Like a team meeting, change the tires, oil, lube, change the spark plugs, timing, new belts, etc......all of 5 minutes ?
Check operation, check CF functions, set C1,C2,C3, clean sensor, clean lens, charge camera batteries - 8, change radio popper batteries, charge 9 sets of double AA's, make sure you don't have a flat, check traffic, find best route to use separate from the primary
Oh, and sync time between the three cameras
5 minutes... . Good luck with that - you'll forget something like a receiver, umbrellas, flashlight, lens cleaner, lens, ...etc
Hah.. this has turned into quite a discussion! If I know she can handle weddings, of course I will second her. I just dont think she is capable. I rather not be involved. I think some of you don't understand how green she is.
MAC wrote:
Check operation, check CF functions, set C1,C2,C3, clean sensor, clean lens, charge camera batteries - 8, change radio popper batteries, charge 9 sets of double AA's, make sure you don't have a flat, check traffic, find best route to use separate from the primary
Oh, and sync time between the three cameras
5 minutes... . Good luck with that - you'll forget something like a receiver, umbrellas, flashlight, lens cleaner, lens, ...etc
I shoot all week long at my studio....that stuff is always done....lens cleaner ? Isn't that stuff in your bag always ? As well as the other minor items ? My bag always is ready to go on any job.....it's my studio in a bag. Overkill.
marti.g3 wrote:
I shoot all week long at my studio....that stuff is always done....lens cleaner ? Isn't that stuff in your bag always ? As well as the other minor items ? My bag always is ready to go on any job.....it's my studio in a bag. Overkill.
5min is under kill
I've been caught in 3 hr traffic jam. I study the google map. Every 2 months my 3 bodies fall out of sync in time- pj stories depend on sync. I also give thought to setting C1, C2,C3 depending on each shoot. So think about if you'll get caught in a short thinking situation
5min- how many would say that for there planning and packing
Anyway - to the Op - he got it right- too green - not ready for prime time - and not worth the dollars and headache or to be associated with a train wreck ready to happen
Don't prep properly and some day you'll hit that 3 hr train wreck
How about if you are truly her friend and mentor you have this discussion with her.
If you were my mentor, I think I would know you had a FM account and might even follow you. If my mentor said things like "horrible" about me I would be crushed and feel betrayed and lied to.
Tell her the truth. Tell her it is hard to say this but you are doing it because you are her mentor and want to see her succeed.
