canerino wrote:
If she is truly your friend, do it. At the end of the night, when she goes to pay you, refuse the money and tell her to invest it into her business.
I will only add that if she proceeds to take back the $300, then she was not really a friend after all and you will know for next time
Photos are only as good as the retouching job. Things look more cohesive if processed similarly, no matter the photographer.
If the mentor is expected to take a primary role instead and cover all the key things, then a crash-and-burn probably won't happen during the wedding. The concern will then be the end processing.
a couple years ago, someone on FM asked me to come second shoot for them in CA. Then they told me that they
were excited to be able to add my work to their portfolio.
I quickly took back my offer.
I don't want my work featured on anyone else's website and called their own. Thats why the common etiquette of
blogs is to throw your second shooters name on the post so people understand that there was a collaborative effort
and due credit is given.
You've really made her out to be a piss-poor photographer. (eg: "even the family photo edits are horrible", "she can't cull/edit 1000 images", etc.)
If she is THAT bad and she looks up to you as a mentor, then as a friend and teacher your obligation is to tell her to pass this on to another photographer until she's ready for prime time.
If she has $300 to pay you, she's probably taken good money from the couple to do this wedding. That gives the couple the right to expect professional results. It doesn't sound like she has the experience (or equipment) to do this correctly. Odd to think you'd co-sign this disaster-waiting-to-happen by offering to 2nd.
If you were a random guy she contacted and the $$ was the only consideration, I'd say go for it. But she's a friend and you're both going to end up with egg on your faces.
She most likely does not have insurance so if things goes bad you will be part of the mess. It is also a case of guilt by association. Others will think any assistant photographer is part of the business. They don't care about you being totally independent. You will be only as good as the worst image or customer service given.
the more I think about it, I dont think she will be able to process my files. I have been telling her to buy LR but she refused. Last time I check she shoots JPG. The only raw software she has is whatever comes with the NIKON. I wonder if that software can edit my canon files? It is done deal. I told her I got a wedding already.
Robin Usagani wrote:
the more I think about it, I dont think she will be able to process my files. I have been telling her to buy LR but she refused. Last time I check she shoots JPG. The only raw software she has is whatever comes with the NIKON. I wonder if that software can edit my canon files? It is done deal. I told her I got a wedding already.
She can always download Picasa. Use the "I feel lucky" button and voila! Instant post processed wedding pix by Google. I think this feature can be used in Batch mode too.
Err.... this is not my experience of course. I heard that from a friend's cousin's whose facebook grandmother knows alot about photography because she just bought a Nikon D5000.
Inku Yo wrote:
What if she delivers 650 of your shots and 50 of hers and them books more and better weddings all thanks to her $300 "investment?"
I wouldn't be too concerned with that, I'd be more focused on whether or not it can further my business..
Here's my take... she may deliver 650 of his and 50 of hers, but its not likely that will bring her tons of business. Almost all of our business is referral, but rarely does the second couple see what we actually delivered to the first couple... they are coming to us based on the blog. She might even use Robin's shots there.. but as long as he can also use them, he's still ahead of the game.
This is all assuming its a place that is cool and he wants to work at... if not that its not worth it.
Whenever I've hired second shooters I've ALWAYS tried to hire photographers whose work I thought was better than mine. I didn't end up delivering 650 of theirs and 50 of mine. I ended up delivering MORE of mine, and mine were MORE SOLID than they would have been if I didn't have the pressure of knowing someone who kicked ass was on the job with me.
If someone asks me to second shoot for them and offers to pay me $300.00 to do so (it's a little low actually... well unless it's a shortish wedding) then frankly the thought process goes something like this:
1. Am I available?
2. Am I willing to sacrifice the time?
3. Is the money worth the actual work that will go into it?
4. Can I expect that they will NOT use my photos in their portfolio and that I'm allowed to use the photos on my blog and my portfolio? (If the answers to those are not "YES, YES, YES" then I will at the very least expect a higher compensation
5. Bonus question - is there something about this wedding that is particularly interesting to me (this is honestly only something I'll care about if I'm looking at being paid less than I'd expect to be paid).
6. Is the photog that wants to hire me a friend, cool, interesting (again... only something that is relevant to my choice if the pay isn't high enough)
I'm not sure why I would care about the "other" stuff. So what if I'm better than the primary? If I can teach them something then great! Heck I share stuff I know here for free without a problem, why would I suddenly be stingy with someone who is paying me for my services? If I make them look better than they would have looked if I weren't there? I call that a bonus. It's called Goodwill. Whenever people have made me look great (be it with epic work, or with amazing personalities) I've appreciated that and done whatever I could to then help them out...
Bottom line, in my book you made the wrong choice.
Even the whole thing about "she can't process my photos" that's just looking for excuses to say no... something that is VERY popular on this board (it should be renamed from Fred Miranda to "Red Flag & NO."
She can figure out how to process her images
OR
You can shoot JPG (you can shoot JPG, right? If that's what she wants?)
OR
You can charge her appropriately for the work to process them
OR
She can send them out and get them processed
whatever the solution to THAT problem.... it smells very much like "looking for a reason to say NO"
so yeah...
-1
:P
P.S. I've shot for a few poeple who were clearly not as experienced. Awesome experiences, great time with them, happy to help them out.
lisy78 wrote:
I see the decisions' already been made.
I disagree with the decision.
Whenever I've hired second shooters I've ALWAYS tried to hire photographers whose work I thought was better than mine. I didn't end up delivering 650 of theirs and 50 of mine. I ended up delivering MORE of mine, and mine were MORE SOLID than they would have been if I didn't have the pressure of knowing someone who kicked ass was on the job with me.
If someone asks me to second shoot for them and offers to pay me $300.00 to do so (it's a little low actually... well unless it's a shortish wedding) then frankly the thought process goes something like this:
1. Am I available?
2. Am I willing to sacrifice the time?
3. Is the money worth the actual work that will go into it?
4. Can I expect that they will NOT use my photos in their portfolio and that I'm allowed to use the photos on my blog and my portfolio? (If the answers to those are not "YES, YES, YES" then I will at the very least expect a higher compensation
5. Bonus question - is there something about this wedding that is particularly interesting to me (this is honestly only something I'll care about if I'm looking at being paid less than I'd expect to be paid).
6. Is the photog that wants to hire me a friend, cool, interesting (again... only something that is relevant to my choice if the pay isn't high enough)
I'm not sure why I would care about the "other" stuff. So what if I'm better than the primary? If I can teach them something then great! Heck I share stuff I know here for free without a problem, why would I suddenly be stingy with someone who is paying me for my services? If I make them look better than they would have looked if I weren't there? I call that a bonus. It's called Goodwill. Whenever people have made me look great (be it with epic work, or with amazing personalities) I've appreciated that and done whatever I could to then help them out...
Bottom line, in my book you made the wrong choice.
Even the whole thing about "she can't process my photos" that's just looking for excuses to say no... something that is VERY popular on this board (it should be renamed from Fred Miranda to "Red Flag & NO."
She can figure out how to process her images
OR
You can shoot JPG (you can shoot JPG, right? If that's what she wants?)
OR
You can charge her appropriately for the work to process them
OR
She can send them out and get them processed
whatever the solution to THAT problem.... it smells very much like "looking for a reason to say NO"
so yeah...
-1
:P
P.S. I've shot for a few poeple who were clearly not as experienced. Awesome experiences, great time with them, happy to help them out....Show more →
+1
Usually I don't agree with AlessandrA but this time he is spot on
+1 for Lisy and here is the $ and cents justification
$300 this time for 2 hrs
$500 next time for 2-3 hrs
No processing time
Get $150-250 added agreement if album
Work to get $750 for 2 -3 hrs if album
If she gets sick do the whole thing and get the whole amount as long as she has charged enough- if not, have the agreement you hand over the files and she takes it from there
Mkt it as you provide the fail safe if she gets sick
Being a second should be very profitable and less hrs
Say she gets a wedding on both Sat and on Sun
You get $750 for Sat for 2-3 hrs and $750 on Sun
$1500 to pay your golf club membership and play 36 holes that same weekend in the morning
The key is you can shoot it alone if she gets sick and she loves this and your work
I think that...quietly...lisy78 and I actually agree about something overall. I don't think that's ever happened before.
However, my general viewpoint is money = money, and I don't mind not displaying all of my shoots so I don't really care if I can use them for my own portfolio or not. I have probably 7-8 wedding shoots I did as second that I never posted my photos of on my website, and I don't really find any desire to. Not that they were poor quality work for me, I just don't need to show them. I am more detached, I suppose, since I have never sold prints except for when I just started taking pictures and being paid for them...with my rebel xt...
