fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Landscape Posting Guidelines
  

FM Forums | Landscape Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              14       15       end
  

Archive 2012 · Peter Lik Comedy image

  
 
Alex Nail
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · Peter Lik Comedy image


How this can be passed off as a photograph baffles me. This kind of thing is nothing new of course, but it certainly is funny (apart from the fact that it reflects poorly on hard working photographers)

http://www.lik.com/media/catalog/category/WG858.jpg
http://www.lik.com/bella-lina.html

How this can be considered photography is beyond me. How is it that one of the worlds most famous photographers doesnt understand lighting?

Here's a more subtle one:
http://www.lik.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/g/wg648_dark_side_of_the_moon_1.jpg
Who can tell me why this one can't be?

Alex



Jan 29, 2012 at 08:47 AM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Alex I'm curious what don't you like about the first photo. I am not sure what you mean by passed off as phtography.


Jan 29, 2012 at 09:08 AM
Ektar25
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Real photographs are shot on film.


Jan 29, 2012 at 09:27 AM
Alex Nail
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Bruce Sawle wrote:
Alex I'm curious what don't you like about the first photo. I am not sure what you mean by passed off as phtography.


The moon has been added to the image, it was never there. You can tell because the shadow of the moon is never darker than the sky, it is impossible. The stars have also been added.


I dont personally take issue with image editing, as long as the content represents reality. I take less of an issue with colour and contrast adjustments because that comes down to interpretation. Adding a moon to a scene is not interpretation at all, its just creating something entirely artificial.



Jan 29, 2012 at 09:43 AM
hashbaz
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Alex Nail wrote:
http://www.lik.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/g/wg648_dark_side_of_the_moon_1.jpg
Who can tell me why this one can't be?


I'm still a noob at photography, but even I know that the full moon is always on the exact opposite side of the sky from the sun.

Some things do look really artificial when you think about them for even just a little.



Jan 29, 2012 at 09:48 AM
jcw1982
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Maybe that is how he wanted to look. Many photographers manipulate their images, some more than others.


Jan 29, 2012 at 10:24 AM
D. von Briesen
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · Peter Lik Comedy image


as much as i agree with you about the comedy of lik's errors (and i've been pointing people toward "darkside of the moon" for years as an example of egregious image compositing), posting his images here without permission is probably not a great idea for fred or you. it might even stimulate a good discussion about landscape photography philosophy and 'art' but it can't end well.


Jan 29, 2012 at 10:31 AM
ckcarr
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · Peter Lik Comedy image


I predict this thread will get deleted.
Sooner is better than later IMO.



Jan 29, 2012 at 10:32 AM
Zeph
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · Peter Lik Comedy image


As long as people are buying, it won't matter whether it's real or not.


Jan 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Ektar25 wrote:
Real photographs are shot on film.


Ha! Real photographs are shot on glass. After you mix the chemicals yourself and coat the plate in your wagon.

Dan

Edited on Jan 29, 2012 at 02:20 PM · View previous versions



Jan 29, 2012 at 11:05 AM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Alex Nail wrote:
The moon has been added to the image, it was never there. You can tell because the shadow of the moon is never darker than the sky, it is impossible. The stars have also been added.

I dont personally take issue with image editing, as long as the content represents reality. I take less of an issue with colour and contrast adjustments because that comes down to interpretation. Adding a moon to a scene is not interpretation at all, its just creating something entirely artificial.



Although I do find the image interesting and almost surreal. In a scifi way. I do agree with your point on the integrity of the photo. Especially after reading his blurb on how he captured this image.

This shot has eluded me my entire photographic career. I have spent years trying to perfect this image, there are so many variables you don't even think about. It's a really touchy image, but when it all lines up, the result is out of this world… literally. I have drawers full of transparencies that I have shot over decades that just didn't cut it. I tried all the variables--different lenses, exposures, compositions, times, then much to my frustration the results back from the lab were always disappointing.

The remoteness of Kodachrome Basin in Utah was an obvious choice to finally nail this elusive image; remote, clean air, and a selection of cliff tops to shoot from. I had been watching the phase of the moon and tonight the moon was close to full. I had a specific composition in my mind and I searched for days to line up this classic tree with the moon. Tonight I hope it all comes together. It was a long night but I knew at some point my perseverance would be rewarded.

I was white-knuckled as I set up the mammoth lens, filling the viewfinder with this balanced scene, the tree framed amongst the rocks and the low lying clouds added to the tension… this had to work. The desert silence was stunning, my pulse raced, I could hear the blood running through my veins. Then, I saw the horizon starting to glow. The golden sphere slowly rose in front of me. I was totally stunned. I couldn't believe it. So connected to this lunar giant that I was trembling. Such an impact on my life. I pressed the shutter, a feeling I'll never forget. The moon, tree, and earth.

I hope to share with you this amazing connection I had on this special evening with the moon, that affects our lives. It certainly affected mine.

Peter Lik
Master Photographer – AIPP, PPA; FBIPP, FRPS



Jan 29, 2012 at 11:07 AM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Alex Nail wrote:
The moon has been added to the image, it was never there. You can tell because the shadow of the moon is never darker than the sky, it is impossible. The stars have also been added.

I dont personally take issue with image editing, as long as the content represents reality. I take less of an issue with colour and contrast adjustments because that comes down to interpretation. Adding a moon to a scene is not interpretation at all, its just creating something entirely artificial.



Although I do find the image interesting and almost surreal. In a scifi way. I do agree with your point on the integrity of the photo. Especially after reading his blurb on how he captured this image.

This shot has eluded me my entire photographic career. I have spent years trying to perfect this image, there are so many variables you don't even think about. It's a really touchy image, but when it all lines up, the result is out of this world… literally. I have drawers full of transparencies that I have shot over decades that just didn't cut it. I tried all the variables--different lenses, exposures, compositions, times, then much to my frustration the results back from the lab were always disappointing.

The remoteness of Kodachrome Basin in Utah was an obvious choice to finally nail this elusive image; remote, clean air, and a selection of cliff tops to shoot from. I had been watching the phase of the moon and tonight the moon was close to full. I had a specific composition in my mind and I searched for days to line up this classic tree with the moon. Tonight I hope it all comes together. It was a long night but I knew at some point my perseverance would be rewarded.

I was white-knuckled as I set up the mammoth lens, filling the viewfinder with this balanced scene, the tree framed amongst the rocks and the low lying clouds added to the tension… this had to work. The desert silence was stunning, my pulse raced, I could hear the blood running through my veins. Then, I saw the horizon starting to glow. The golden sphere slowly rose in front of me. I was totally stunned. I couldn't believe it. So connected to this lunar giant that I was trembling. Such an impact on my life. I pressed the shutter, a feeling I'll never forget. The moon, tree, and earth.

I hope to share with you this amazing connection I had on this special evening with the moon, that affects our lives. It certainly affected mine.

Peter Lik
Master Photographer – AIPP, PPA; FBIPP, FRPS



Jan 29, 2012 at 11:07 AM
kurt765
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · Peter Lik Comedy image


A guy named David Bruce Dickson on Peter's facebook page outlined the problems with the first image , "Bella Luna"

1. When it's near full moon, the moon is opposite the setting sun (not in the same direction.) 2. The shadowed bit of the moon has to point away from the sun (and it doesn't in this image.) 3. In the image, the Moon is rotated relative to the orientation it can have in Utah (Tycho, the bright crater at the bottom of the moon has to be inclined about 45deg relative to the horizon.) 4. The relative scale is all wrong.... Much of PL's work is wonderful but this is so fake it's worse that IBM's elephant eggs...

My own observations:
1. The shadow sign of the moon is darker than the sky through which you are seeing it. This is not possible.
2. The moon is literally on top of the clouds.
3. He admits there are two exposures, though he doesn't admit to using vastly different lenses to combine a scene that could never exist.


I had a huge thread on this on another forum. It didn't really go well. I argue that with landscape photography it should be about capturing a scene that actually happened, actually exists and you are just showing your interpretation of it. Others feel you can add a sky from a photo in Iceland to a landscape in Death Valley and still say it was a Death Valley photo. Many other people say that criticism of Peter Lik by anyone just means you're jealous of his success, or that Lik's success trumps anything else. I just think it's a poorly executed composite that is perhaps a niece of art according to some but is not a photograph in my book. To each his/her own I guess.

-K



Jan 29, 2012 at 11:16 AM
Milan Hutera
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · Peter Lik Comedy image


So will this be another million dollar image?


Jan 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM
Alex Nail
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · Peter Lik Comedy image


D. von Briesen wrote:
as much as i agree with you about the comedy of lik's errors (and i've been pointing people toward "darkside of the moon" for years as an example of egregious image compositing), posting his images here without permission is probably not a great idea for fred or you. it might even stimulate a good discussion about landscape photography philosophy and 'art' but it can't end well.


I don't think I need his permission to post his images for the purpose of critique? Are copyright laws different in the US? I think this falls under 'Fair Use'. Apologies if I do need his permission...

If we are talking about it not ending well for some inflammatory reasons then I can only say that I hope that doesnt happen. I see this as a subject for debate of constant importance for photographers and from a personal point of view I find people opinions on the matter interesting and varied.



Jan 29, 2012 at 12:20 PM
runamuck
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · Peter Lik Comedy image


It is Peter Lik's photo and he is free to do with it as he pleases within the framework of the law. You are free to criticize any way you wish within the framework of the law. I question your posting of the image here in light of copyright laws.

I do not see how it "...reflects poorly on hard working photographers." I find it to be a great example of what photographers are capable of using today's techniques.

Milan Hutera, I don't know if it will become "...another million dollar image." It is a striking image, and I wouldn't bet against it.



Jan 29, 2012 at 01:04 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Bruce Sawle quoted "master photographer Peter Lik," who wrote about his image:
This shot has eluded me my entire photographic career. I have spent years trying to perfect this image, there are so many variables you don't even think about. It's a really touchy image, but when it all lines up, the result is out of this world… literally. I have drawers full of transparencies that I have shot over decades that just didn't cut it. I tried all the variables--different lenses, exposures, compositions, times, then much to my frustration the results back from the lab were always disappointing.

The remoteness of Kodachrome
...Show more

In astronomical terms, it is, uh, a "challenge" to get front light from the sun to shine on the moon when the sunrise or sunset is behind the moon. As we all know from the well-known Ansel story about shooting the "Moonrise..." image or from our own attempts to photograph it at night, the moon at night is very bright subject. An exposure that retains some light in the night sky will result in a completely blown out moon, and an exposure that retains vivid detail in the moon itself will render the rest of a night scene essentially nearly or completely black. Feel free to test this yourself by shooting a nicely exposed photograph of the full moon that also includes pinpoint stars... and has no noise. I've also found that it is, ahem, tremendously difficult to get the moon to be in front of the clouds! ;-)

If anyone has figured out how to defy these realities in single exposures of the full moon, yours is a workshop that I'll pay for!

Just sayin' ;-)

What follows is not a comment on the image shown here, but on a more general issue that it brings up.

I'm fascinated and somewhat disturbed when photographers who produce images that are compelling and that affect viewers feel the need to answer untruthfully about their methods when asked, or who feel the need to claim as truth things that cannot possibly be truth about their work and their working methods. It is especially ironic that this, to be blunt, lie is often offered to strengthen their claim to honesty in their work!

Photographers who produce excellent work know without a shadow of a doubt that excellent photography virtually always involves skillful and expressive work in post, whether that post is film-based or digital or some combination of the two. (It also involves a lot of "processing" at the time of exposure, but that is a topic I'll leave alone for now.)

I was recently at a talk where a photographer presented some images and spoke about them (Lik was not the photographer in this story.) A few that I felt were most compelling and interesting obviously made use of certain standard post-processing techniques that I immediately recognized, including adjustments to curves, saturation, color balance, the burning down of some extraneous elements, and so forth. This was all done to very good effect and I felt that it was entirely appropriate for the specific photographs and that it was done with aesthetic sensitivity and technical skill. To put it simply, I liked the photographs.

At the end of the talk a person in the audience asked the photographer about the role post-processing techniques played in the creation of the work. It was not a hostile question at all, and the person asking clearly liked the photographs and the photographer. I was stunned when the photographer replied that the vast majority of the photographs (I believe the figure claimed was either 90% or 95%) were presented "just as they came from the camera" without any significant work in post because (to closely paraphrase) "I like to get it right in the camera" and "I'd rather make photographs than work at my computer."

Given that virtually all of us and virtually all significant photographers of the past century and a half do rely or have relied on what must be considered "manipulation" of images of the subject, I don't think we do ourselves or photography (or other photographers) any favors by continuing to persist in the tall tale of "no manipulation."

When asked whether you "manipulate" or post process images (as opposed to just "capturing and presenting them"), I believe that the photographer has essentially three choices:

1. Refuse to discuss it - Stand on (what might appear to be) principle and say something like, "It doesn't matter how I create my photographs. What matters is what they look like and how they affect you - in other words, their effectiveness as compelling visual objects." This is a fair reply I think, though it wouldn't be mine. It also could seem to be a bit evasive...

2. Be honest - My answer might be something like this. "Yes. No photograph is a 'capture' of objective reality. The camera does not see the way that we do. A photograph can convey the subjective reality that the photographer experienced. In some of my photographs I do little post-processing and in others I do quite a bit. For example..." Here is a good place to quote Ansel regarding the negative (raw file?) being the score and the print being the performance.

3. Lie - "My photographs are accurate and objective "captures" of reality exactly as it was and you would have seen exactly this if you had been there with me."

Imagining that producing a great photograph is actually just a matter of "capturing" the right subject and then presenting it "unaltered" is no less of a lie than imaging that a great chef simply picks stuff up at the best grocery store and presents it unaltered. "My dishes are pure and unaltered from what nature provided. All you must do is search out the perfect ingredients and assemble them together with the consummate skill that only I possess."

Right...

Remember, this is not about Lik. It is about photography as a genre.

Dan


Edited on Jan 29, 2012 at 03:41 PM · View previous versions



Jan 29, 2012 at 02:22 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · Peter Lik Comedy image


kurt765 wrote:
I had a huge thread on this on another forum. It didn't really go well. I argue that with landscape photography it should be about capturing a scene that actually happened, actually exists and you are just showing your interpretation of it. Others feel you can add a sky from a photo in Iceland to a landscape in Death Valley and still say it was a Death Valley photo. Many other people say that criticism of Peter Lik by anyone just means you're jealous of his success, or that Lik's success trumps anything else. I just think it's a poorly
...Show more

I think there are a bunch of ways to think about this. I occasionally create "impossible" photographs (as in a recent Death Valley photograph I posted here - and labeled as such) and I don't think there are any ethical limits on what techniques one wants to use. There is nothing fundamentally ethically wrong with compositing images or altering colors or anything else.

But...

I'm very, very uncomfortable (to say the least) when a photographer who does these things then outright states (or strongly implies) that he or she doesn't do them and/or that these images represent objective reality. While there is no rule that says that presenting landscapes (or other subjects) in ways that might be considered to be relatively realistic is the only way to present them, there are some ethical issues about lying...

I have a simple policy that works for me. If asked, I will speak honestly about any "manipulation" or post-processing techniques that I used in my photographs. I won't do anything that I would be embarrassed to admit to if asked. No skeletons in that closet.

When I do create a photographic image that significantly departs from what I call the "subjective reality" of the scene I will say so unless it is patently obvious such that I don't even have to say it.

This resolves a lot of ethical issues...

Dan

(And, yes, I understand the journalism photography is a different issue - which I'm steering clear of here. :-)



Jan 29, 2012 at 03:11 PM
toddlambert
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Good post Dan!


I posted this elsewhere, but the comedic value might apply here as well:



I've tried for years, to capture this shot. It has eluded me like a big cat in the bush, quietly slinking away, whenever I neared.

All of my attempts to capture this giant moon that I'd heard so much of, were never what I envisioned. Try after try, I came back with shots that just didn't look as impressive as I knew it could.

Finally, on this fateful evening, I'd found a spot out in an extremely remote location and I hunkered down waiting for the sleeping giant to rise. As I stood there with the camera in my hand, I became overwhelmed as the first glow broke the horizon. Tears began streaming down my face as I took in the sheer awesomeness of what I was seeing. I simply couldn't believe my eyes, so I quickly tripped my shuttah and lo and behold, I'd finally captured this elusive beast, right there on my sensor.

Whenever I look at this image, those same tears start to well up inside... I hope they do for you too.

Mentitore Moon



Limited Edition Prints Available: $5000.00



Jan 29, 2012 at 03:21 PM
redsoxdesign
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · Peter Lik Comedy image


Whenever I see Peter Liks name mentioned here I think "Here we go again....."
I'd rather be out taking photos........
cheers Andrew



Jan 29, 2012 at 03:54 PM
       2       3              14       15       end




FM Forums | Landscape Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              14       15       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account