corposant wrote:
Wow, 1,500 euros... body only. It comes with a breathtaking price. I guess it's meant to compete with the NEX 7?
No, according to Fuji it is meant as a "premium class camera" (falsly the Fuji guy said "SLR", which it isn't) which - in terms of IQ - will compete with FF cameras.
So if the sensor is that good - and it seems to be a new type of sensor - 1500 is not much.
alba63 wrote:
No, according to Fuji it is meant as a "premium class camera" (falsly the Fuji guy said "SLR", which it isn't) which - in terms of IQ - will compete with FF cameras.
So if the sensor is that good - and it seems to be a new type of sensor - 1500 is not much.
Bernie
If it meets these criteria/ expectations, I would gladly pay around $1500 for the body, depending on the cost - and range - of the lenses.
With all due respect, it has not yet happened that an APS-C sensor delivered better IQ than equivalent-generation FF sensors, nor that a MFT sensor delivered better IQ than an equivalent-generation APS-C sensor, and so on. To make such a claim is just foolish on Fuji's part. All it would take to prove it wrong is to use the same sensor technology in a FF camera, and *bam*.
On the other hand, if Fuji would use their Super-CCD technology, or something equivalent for CMOS, then we might have an APS-C sensor with more dynamic range than most FF sensors. They will have to either figure out how to do live view with their CCD sensor, or port the large-pixel/small-pixel architecture to CMOS though, neither of which is easy, I would guess. Probably the only downside to such a camera would be Fuji's tendency towards heavy AA filters, and this could be offset at least partly by high resolution, but high ISO would suffer. The colours could be really great, if they match the S2/S3 rather than the X100.
carstenw wrote:
With all due respect, it has not yet happened that an APS-C sensor delivered better IQ than equivalent-generation FF sensors, nor that a MFT sensor delivered better IQ than an equivalent-generation APS-C sensor, and so on. To make such a claim is just foolish on Fuji's part. All it would take to prove it wrong is to use the same sensor technology in a FF camera, and *bam*.
On the other hand, if Fuji would use their Super-CCD technology, or something equivalent for CMOS, then we might have an APS-C sensor with more dynamic range than most FF sensors. They will have to either figure out how to do live view with their CCD sensor, or port the large-pixel/small-pixel architecture to CMOS though, neither of which is easy, I would guess. Probably the only downside to such a camera would be Fuji's tendency towards heavy AA filters, and this could be offset at least partly by high resolution, but high ISO would suffer. The colours could be really great, if they match the S2/S3 rather than the X100....Show more →
IF Fuji has developed a new groundbreaking - and proprietary - sensor technology (as indicated with the organic sensor patent), all bets are off with regard to prior history and APS v FF, since in those comparisons the technology was basically the same. The only thing we can say at the moment for certainty is that a FF sensor would have less dof at a given aperture vs APS and run into less issues with diffraction at a given F-stop, both simply due to the size difference.
If there is no equiv generation FF sensor on the market yet then when Fuji's likely APS-C sized sensor comes to market then their claims would be correct.
Certainly seems that it could easily be surpassed when new tech does get scaled up, but I don't know of any products that haven't one day been on top only to later no longer be correct.
Canon 1Ds was once claimed by Canon to be the highest resolution DSLR on the market for example, then it was surpassed, but was Canon foolish to make that claim when it came out ?
Could Fuji's claim really only hold true for a short time ? Sure, but given the typical production cycles of modern digital cameras and the speed at which people upgrade et al, certainly would seem more foolish not to market with that angle.
I mean really, if you've got best thing going (supposedly) even for a short period of time wouldn't you capitalize on it ?
carstenw wrote:
With all due respect, it has not yet happened that an APS-C sensor delivered better IQ than equivalent-generation FF sensors, nor that a MFT sensor delivered better IQ than an equivalent-generation APS-C sensor, and so on. To make such a claim is just foolish on Fuji's part. All it would take to prove it wrong is to use the same sensor technology in a FF camera, and *bam*.
On the other hand, if Fuji would use their Super-CCD technology, or something equivalent for CMOS, then we might have an APS-C sensor with more dynamic range than most FF sensors. They will have to either figure out how to do live view with their CCD sensor, or port the large-pixel/small-pixel architecture to CMOS though, neither of which is easy, I would guess. Probably the only downside to such a camera would be Fuji's tendency towards heavy AA filters, and this could be offset at least partly by high resolution, but high ISO would suffer. The colours could be really great, if they match the S2/S3 rather than the X100....Show more →
alba63 wrote:
If the sensor really delivers as they claim, APS-c should be enough...
I don't really care all that much about the sensor's performance. Performance equivalent to the sensor of the M9 or even the old 5D would be enough for me (provided that it would work well with rangefinder lenses). Full FOV coverage >>> sensor performance.
AhamB wrote:
I don't really care all that much about the sensor's performance. Performance equivalent to the sensor of the M9 or even the old 5D would be enough for me (provided that it would work well with rangefinder lenses). Full FOV coverage >>> sensor performance.
Is that just because you intend to use your existing FF lenses and/or that you prefer a shallower dof for a given F-stop?
As some people (denoir, I believe) have expressed it: by cropping the corners/borders, you lose a lot of the character of FF lenses. So yes, it's because I want to be able to use FF lenses fully. The shallower DOF can be nice too (although it's kind of a disadvantage for macro).
AhamB wrote:
As some people (denoir, I believe) have expressed it: by cropping the corners/borders, you lose a lot of the character of FF lenses. So yes, it's because I want to be able to use FF lenses fully. The shallower DOF can be nice too (although it's kind of a disadvantage for macro).
One man's "character" is another man's "soft corners" or excessive vignetting or (insert optical defect of your choice here) though.
Not to say that anyone is right or wrong, but just that for everyone that wants FF, I'm sure theres someone else who would be happy with a crop because of how it allows them to utilize certain lenses differently, or more in a manner they are used too.
My VC15mm for example, I just loved on the M8.2, was just an amazing 21mm equiv, optically great and very affordable. Went to the m9 then and hated it, way too wide, lots of color cast etc. Didn't want to spend a few grand for a 21mm either so in a way I could honestly say I prefered the smaller sensor size in that regard
millsart wrote:
If there is no equiv generation FF sensor on the market yet then when Fuji's likely APS-C sized sensor comes to market then their claims would be correct.
It hasn't even been announced yet, only rumoured, and both the 1DX and D800/D4 will be out soon, so whether or not this sensor will ever be the best is at the very least in doubt. Maybe it will be the best for a month, if they are lucky.
Really, it is just foolish to make such grandiose claims without complete control over the market, they just set themselves up for being laughed at. It would have been much wiser to phrase it differently. For example, saying that its performance will be at the level of current FF sensor is very impressive, but not nearly as pompous.
carstenw wrote:
Really, it is just foolish to make such grandiose claims without complete control over the market, they just set themselves up for being laughed at. It would have been much wiser to phrase it differently. For example, saying that its performance will be at the level of current FF sensor is very impressive, but not nearly as pompous.
It is only a problem if one attaches too much importance to such words. It is marketing, after all. And once the sensor should turn out to deliver gorgeous colour with good DR, good resolution (let's say something between 14 and 20MP), good low light performance, and all that in an elegant, stylish, reasonably small and light body with compact, high quality lenses for an affordable price, noone would have a problem with those marketing words. If the thing gives the classic Fuji look in a neat elegant package, I will be happy.
If camera dissappoints, they are fu****ed anyway, and of course there are still chances that they have that golden technology that renders images with a much more natural (less digital) look, supreme detail and sharpness - the organic continuous layer that collects the light can take extreme light angles and could result in a new (more analogue) type of look.
Some rumours mentioned a pixel count of roughly 40MP, based on earlier claims about experiments of the company. IF this should be the case, and IF those pixels are of good quality - then this little thing could wipe the floor with current FF technology, both Canon and Nikon :-)
But I don't really wait for this - a good Fuji camera would be enough for me...
millsart wrote:
One man's "character" is another man's "soft corners" or excessive vignetting or (insert optical defect of your choice here) though.
Not to say that anyone is right or wrong, but just that for everyone that wants FF, I'm sure theres someone else who would be happy with a crop because of how it allows them to utilize certain lenses differently, or more in a manner they are used too.
My VC15mm for example, I just loved on the M8.2, was just an amazing 21mm equiv, optically great and very affordable. Went to the m9 then and hated it, way too wide, lots of color cast etc. Didn't want to spend a few grand for a 21mm either so in a way I could honestly say I prefered the smaller sensor size in that regard ...Show more →
Yes, when it comes to lenses, so much depends on specific sensor/ lens combinations. I'm almost as excited to see what lenses Fuji introduces for the system as I am to see the camera and sensor tech. If they deliver a range of class leading 1.4 and 2.0 lenses for between $700 - 1K or so, I will be very happy.
alba63 wrote:
It is only a problem if one attaches too much importance to such words.
This thread wouldn't exist if no one attached too much importance to such words I guess all the Fuji lovers past are hoping for a world-beating camera, whereas in reality, we will just get another option with plusses and minuses.
Some rumours mentioned a pixel count of roughly 40MP, based on earlier claims about experiments of the company. IF this should be the case, and IF those pixels are of good quality - then this little thing could wipe the floor with current FF technology, both Canon and Nikon :-)
Unless Nikon release an 80MP D800 with better pixels, which is just about as likely. Let's stay in the real world here Many small pixels are not going to beat current FF cameras.
But I don't really wait for this - a good Fuji camera would be enough for me...
I guess you might get this, with a reasonable probability.
carstenw wrote:
It hasn't even been announced yet, only rumoured, and both the 1DX and D800/D4 will be out soon, so whether or not this sensor will ever be the best is at the very least in doubt. Maybe it will be the best for a month, if they are lucky.
Really, it is just foolish to make such grandiose claims without complete control over the market, they just set themselves up for being laughed at. It would have been much wiser to phrase it differently. For example, saying that its performance will be at the level of current FF sensor is very impressive, but not nearly as pompous....Show more →
meh, I say its worth marketing.
Look at car manufacturers... fastest 0-60, highest horsepower, most seating capacity, best fuel mileage, etc... lucky for them, cars come out once a year at best. Does that mean that they should refrain from saying their car has the most horsepower in its class when next year it gets trumped by some other car? by all means NO!
It just happens to be that with technology, what takes other industries years to improve, only takes months sometimes.
plus, you have to realize "the best sensor" is a subjective statement. A subjective statement is pretty much never *wrong* since its subject to whatever YOU make it out to be.
alba63 wrote:
But I don't really wait for this - a good Fuji camera would be enough for me...
carstenw wrote:
I guess you might get this, with a reasonable probability.
Yes. I think we can be fairly confident that Fuji will put out a good and quite respectable camera -- whether it is a world-beater or not. I'm pretty sure it won't be crap.
carstenw wrote:
This thread wouldn't exist if no one attached too much importance to such words I guess all the Fuji lovers past are hoping for a world-beating camera, whereas in reality, we will just get another option with plusses and minuses.
Unless Nikon release an 80MP D800 with better pixels, which is just about as likely. Let's stay in the real world here Many small pixels are not going to beat current FF cameras.
I guess you might get this, with a reasonable probability.
Well, if these crazy pixel count numbers come to be, everything will depend on the lenses. This is one area where I expect Fuji could easily trump just about anything Sony produces (including ZA's).
I don't know what MP the Fuji is supposed to be but the Nikon D800 is all but certain to use a 36MP Sony CMOS sensor and it's very likely the Canon 5DIII will be around the same. When these come out, I predict the playing field will be just about even with regard to image quality. Where Fuji will likely still maintain an advantage will be in the size/ compactness of the system.
In this regard, even if the IQ is close to whatever Canon/ Nikon DSLR is forthcoming, the Fuji could still be a "World-Beater".
I guess all the Fuji lovers past are hoping for a world-beating camera, whereas in reality, we will just get another option with plusses and minuses.
Many small pixels are not going to beat current FF cameras.