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Archive 2012 · Strobist

  
 
ukphotographer
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p.5 #1 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
One of the reasons I first started using a towel instead of a flat target to determine overall range is for the exact problem you point out. It is difficult to photograph a flat glossy target square to the camera without glare using centered fill. I also use towels because a 2D target will not show the balance of rim and frontal key light in the same way as you see it here on the 3D white towel. The towel solves both of those problems. What part of using a 3D target to evaluate and set lighting for 3D objects
...Show more

Using a 3D target makes sense, only reflecting your lights off a calibrated measure doesn't make sense at all since you cannot integrate the calibration into anything as it is spoiled by the reflection. Angling the card to avoid the reflection would make it useful.



Jan 21, 2012 at 01:18 PM
erichard
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p.5 #2 · Strobist


See my response to RDKirk. It seems to me you two are exposing as though this were film almost. What I think is advisable is to expose until you see *actual subject* clipping, subject meaning any portion of the scene where you theoretically want to preserve data, texture, whatever. It may or may not look gray at first blush when you open the file, but that is irrelevant because hopefully you are shooting RAW. The key is, you have the max data you could obtain. From there, it's an easy move to adjust the sliders or curves. From that vantage point the world is your oyster. Very easy to get a black cat there with the absolute minimum of noise.

cgardner wrote:
If you were to actually try it you would find that not to be the case.

What causes flat results in photos in "non contrasty" lighting such as overcast sky is the fact the scene range winds up being shorter than the sensor's. When exposure is adjusted for the accurate rendering of the highlights so much light reflects from dark objects before the shutter closes that they are rendered lighter than they actually are or appear to be by eye. The same thing will occur with artificial lighting if the shadows are overfilled.

That's actually a good thing in terms of
...Show more



Jan 21, 2012 at 01:35 PM
cgardner
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p.5 #3 · Strobist


The new improved version to address your concerns.... Again thanks for the feedback.

http://super.nova.org/TP/TargetNew.jpg


ukphotographer wrote:
Using a 3D target makes sense, only reflecting your lights off a calibrated measure doesn't make sense at all since you cannot integrate the calibration into anything as it is spoiled by the reflection. Angling the card to avoid the reflection would make it useful.




Jan 21, 2012 at 01:37 PM
cgardner
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p.5 #4 · Strobist


If possible I try to record the full scene with detail but that is usually not possible on sunny days.

In the US at 1:30 in the afternoon this time of year the sun will be in the SW part of the sky. If you pointed an incident meter at the sun set to ISO 100 and 1/100th the meter would read at or near f/16. If you turned the meter 180° and point it at the sky opposite the sun it will read at or near f/5.6. Any day, every day, anywhere. That's "Sunny 16" and it's flip side "Shady 5.6" a three stop difference — sunny side 8 x brighter than shaded side. In terms of lighting ratio where sky fill = 1 its an 8:1 ratio. High contrast light.

Today at 1:30 it was cloudy and ovecast. The sun, hidden by clouds, was in same place but when I metered the sunny side I got f/5.6 / EV 11.8 and when I measured 180° at the sky I got f/5.6 / EV 11.6. There was only a .2 stop difference. The lighting was as low contrast as it gets.

Shooting at nothing in particular I bracketed exposure from the point nothing was clipping in the brightest snow to the point where there was a lot of clipping in the snow — on the camera display. I opened the files in RAW - ProPhoto 16 bit as I normally do and selected the exposure where the brightest snow was just under clipping the the RAW. I made no corrections.

In the RAW file, in the flat light, with the exception of the shadows in the tree on the right no shadows were clipping. In that flat overcast light my 50D sensor was able to capture detail everywhere. I opened it in CS5, resized to 900 x 600 and converted 8 - bit JPG sRGB as I normally do for forum images.

http://super.nova.org/TP/OvercastDay.jpg

Checking with Levels using the Opt key presses to check clipping I found that some highlights in the snow and the red and green channels in the fireplug were now clipping and there was more loss of detail in the shadows than showed in the RAW clipping warning. That's due to the conversion from 16bit resolution and a very wide editing gamut to smaller 8-bit Gamut.

Something I'm very aware of from my reproduction background is that file values change during processing. I know if I expose my highlights at clipping in the RAW that as here by the time I make my JPG for display some highlights will clip. To find up at the end of the workflow with highlights in my JPG that are not clipping I would need to start with a RAW file that in the RAW editor and in my CS5 "Master Edit" copy is underexposed by about 1/3 stop in the highlights.

By way of analogy its like marking a board with a cut line then allowing for the width of the blade. The first step in the workflow — capture in the camera — must anticipate how normal file conversion will clip highlights and shadows in the final JPG conversion step.

Putting the CF card back in the camera I looked at the same file #6562 in the playback. The same areas that are clipping in the reduced JPG copy shown below with a screen shot of the Opt>Levels check are clipping in same place in the camera playback...

http://super.nova.org/TP/OvercastJPGClip.jpg

That makes perfect sense because the camera playback clipping warning is based on the JPG the camera makes for the display. Style and other settings on camera can change the display but I never change them. So for me as you can see there is a very accurate correlation between what I see while shooting in my clipping warning and what will happen not in the RAW, which as more headroom, but in the last most "lossy" step in my workflow. That dear friends is why I expose just below clipping in the camera based on the clipping warning.

The scene out of camera while almost matching the sensor with no assistance looks flat because the light was flat and overcast. My perceptual remedy for that isn't to clip the highlights or lighten the shadows. Instead I do what I learned to do making halftones 35 years ago at National Geographic — I adjust the midtone values with the middle slider of Levels, not the ends of the tonal range.

http://super.nova.org/TP/OvercastLevels85.jpg

What moving the middle slider does is make the midtones darker without changing the end points. Move the center slider left and it will reduce contrast and make the image look "flatter" overall. Move it right as I did and it adds "snap" by making the midtones darker. The before (top) and after (bottom) is shown below:

http://super.nova.org/TP/Overcast85.jpg

Here's an extreme example. It's not something I normally do.....

This is a backlit shot on a sunny day where there is a 3 stop sun/shade (8:1) incident difference:

http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5034_Zones.jpg

Here's the same file with the Levels middle slider pushes way-y-y-y left:
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5034_Levels.jpg
It makes the shaded side look more "normal" but amplifies the noise in the deep shadows were there was no detail in the camera capture. The same net effect with a bit less noise can by achieve by adjusting the brightness slider in ACR before opening in CS5:
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5034_ACRedit.jpg
Another technique I will used on a sunny cross lit scenic shot is adjustment layers...
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5034_AdjustLayer.jpg
There I didn't push it as far as in the exaggerated Levels and ACR examples. If you look at the mask icons in the Layers window you can see where I lightened the shaded areas but also darkened the highlights. Perceptually that has the same effect as an overcast day — lower overall contrast between highlights and shadows in the photos.

A "trick" I will sometimes used in a scenic the sensor can't handle the range of is put a person or something interesting large in the foreground lit with flash, which makes the viewer focus less on the background and not notice loss of shadow detail when I expose for the highlights as is my preference. That's what I had in mind when taking this shot at Longwood Gardens in PA a few years ago:

http://super.nova.org/TP/Longwood1.jpg
Here's the test shot with a flash lit foreground.
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5035.jpg
The problem with that flash strategy, to the extent there is one is that exposing the sunny highlights on the back of the towel winds up underexposing everything beyond the range of the flash by about 2-3 stops. Why? It still exceeds the sensor range as in the ambient only shot before flash is added.

In most shots I'll use a combination of these methods: flash to control the foreground, then to the extent I need more detail in the background I will use adjustment layers or if I'm in a hurry dupe the layer, adjust the dupe layer middle-left in levels to lighten, apply NR, then blend the lighten shadows into the original with a mask similar to how two HDR shots are blended. I rarely use HDR because I don't shoot many scenics and rarely use a tripod.

Because of the way I adjust midtones to change contrast perceptually I rarely capture a file with solid objects clipping at capture, except by mistake. When I do opt to intentionally blow highlight detail I'll do it in editing when I do it selectively with adjustment layers and can clearly see what is happening in raw, psd and the final resized jpg.

As for the question of why not expose to the right when the darkest object is light gray you need to realize it will have specular highlights and subtle gradients around them that will be destroyed with that strategy. Smooth gradients of contrast are what make an object look rounded (shallow gradient) or angular (steep gradient). Say what you will about the towels but when I put the ball between those goalposts and record detail in them I know I've got all the detail in the scene. I don't trust that the camera feedback is showing me everything. I err on the side of not blowing highlights because in most of the photos I take the shadow detail isn't as important. If I lose 1/3 stop DR in shadows because I under expose the highlights 1/3 stop I view that as cheap insurance that I'll see detail in my highlights when I open the file on my computer. Then I decide if and how to fiddle with it.

Check out this link: http://www.cs.uga.edu/~maria/classes//4900-Spring-2011/4-workshop.html



Jan 21, 2012 at 02:26 PM
williamkazak
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p.5 #5 · Strobist


I am still into photography "for the love of the game". It is not any sort of competitive battle ground challenger series for me. I certainly admire certain photogs over history and also currently. Being beaten down occurs frequently on FM. That is why I rarely post pics anymore. Trolls follow threads and show their animosity toward those offering up their solutions. If trolls have no pics to critique, some go to the website and pull something out of there to complain about. Other antagonist's never offer up pics to help in the understanding of the "so called", discussion but instead, lay in wait to attack those that do offer up. This has been going on for years because I have noticed some follow certain posters to rip them again and again. Why do they do this? I am not seeking a critique session nor praise where other photogs say "Oh, that's great" and fanboy stuff like that they do in the wedding forum. Others seek a battle and I can just tell them; "I don't like lens flare" and I don't like the bride's face so soft that I don't recognize her but the groom is sharp in the same photo. I don't argue about what I prefer but simply state my preference, or problem. I am happy when I get a response to a photo problem, especially detailed, so that I may choose to use the technique or not. I do post, now and then, so that others may enjoy a pic that I am excited about. Or, I will sometimes show what I did with a particular lens. Weddings, as in a lot of outdoor candid photography, are a fluid situation. We get what we get and we try to improve for the next encounter and circumstance. The lighting is never the same for me. The more I learn, then "the next problem" appears, to seek a solution. I am happy when I get meaningful responses to photo problems. That might help me to become a better photographer by understanding the gear and seeing what others do. Lighting is so important at the "advanced levels" because we seek repeatable results in a variety of circumstances and I want my pictures to look great. I know that all of you want me to post my black cat pics, don't you?


Jan 22, 2012 at 12:37 PM
erichard
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p.5 #6 · Strobist


William, well you certainly upped the heat bringing in the "troll" term to the discussion, of course while disavowing any battleground urge. A bit disingenuous I'd say.

As far as my challenging Mr Gardner to pull off his fully exploited luminance curve while using the white towel to photograph his suggested black cat on coal, it is as much rhetorical as it is meant to call the bluff on what is patently not possible. All one has to do is think about it. If there are no bright whites in the photo scene, and you bring in a bright white towel to set the exposure, and you then take the towel out for the final shot, I can guarantee you there will be no far right data where there had been data while the towel was in the photo. The histogram will for sure end prematurely. It is by definition. For RDKirk, that may be his aim for a low key shot, and it may suit his purposes fine, and look more than acceptable, but it will not fill out the histogram to look like Mr Gardner's histograms while the towel is in the photo. If one thinks about it, there is no need to photograph this scene to know I am correct.

If you read up on exposure, you will find most of the data is not in the darks but in the brighter shades of any photo. If you expose to the right, meaning get your leading edge of data in the histogram to abut the right limit, you will pull more data, meaning detail and tones, etc., out of the dark shades *on capture*, which is key because once you get to photoshop you are limited to what data you have captured. In a photo of a black cat on black coal, this would seem to be a particular aim. It would still be relatively easy to get the low key photo that RDKirk aims for, probably at least as easy as doing the towel technique.

Why do people challenge advice? Well if people like yourself are looking for advice, don't you want the correct advice? You know in Soviet Russia, you always get the 'correct' advice because no one is/was allowed to challenge the party line. This is why Russia is a doomed country.



Jan 22, 2012 at 01:32 PM
RDKirk
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p.5 #7 · Strobist


I would say, given your low key approach maybe that's fine, but my question would be, if that zone 8 white is no where to be seen in the photo (ie. nothing as reflective as that white plastic), then why not expose to the right without the card till you do see *actual* subject clipping (just under), shoot, and then in post pull back your brightness (or up the exposure end point/pull data away from the right 255 end point) to get your desired low key, or accurate, or pleasing rendition of the dark skinned subject.

The Zone 8 highlights in the subject might be much smaller--but are still incredibly pictorially important, and what I see in the viewfinder might not accurately be the Zone 8 tones. It's the same as using a gray card to determine the actual Zone V tone--what looks like Zone V gray in the viewfinder may or may not be a true Zone V gray. Got to start with a known standard at some point.



Jan 22, 2012 at 01:36 PM
cgardner
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p.5 #8 · Strobist


erichard wrote:
If you read up on exposure....

If you spend 41 years and still counting taking photographs starting with B&W film and everything made since, above and underwater, with everything from a Minox B to a 30" x 40" camera the size of your garage, every type of photographic light source (including carbon arc), gain intinctive situational awareness of light, master the zone system, shoot professionally with top pro, work in the National Geographic Labs, teach a college class on reproduction for photo lithography for five years, and manage a worldwide publishing enterprise for 28 years as I have you'll find there's more to this that you have read and assume.

But all really matters about that experience creating and reproducing full range life-like images is that it works of me in my photographs and the people who paid my salary for years to print theirs.

If you look at this image and think about it a bit you''ll realize a black and white cat sitting together either on a pile of coal or a snow drift will have exactly the same tonal range in the same light this target in the scene with them would have....

http://super.nova.org/TP/TargetNew.jpg

Reproduce the target as seen by eye and you wind up with a photo of the cats that looks the same as seen by eye. I can't bring that scene back into my office and compare it to the screen image and print to see how accurately I did that, but I can take the target and hold it next to the screen and print and do that comparing real to reproduction. That's why targets like that are used in reproduction for process control.

If you take a shiny black object and put it on black paper the objects are black, but what creates the illusion of 3D are the very subtle clues in the gradients from the 255 specular highlights to the darker tones. Creating that illusion of 3D requires fitting range to sensor..

http://super.nova.org/TP/Comp6black.jpg

The same is true on shiny white objects

http://super.nova.org/TP/Comp6.jpg

If that doesn't make sense you have free will, so do what works for you.



Jan 22, 2012 at 06:57 PM
williamkazak
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p.5 #9 · Strobist


"William, well you certainly upped the heat bringing in the "troll" term to the discussion, of course while disavowing any battleground urge. A bit disingenuous I'd say."

Is a reply required here? If so, open your own eyes. You fell right in.
There is always somebody to start a bitching contest, that is all I meant.

"Why do people challenge advice?"

One of the problems in "discussions" is that it is easy to sling the mud at people using printed words. Some posters just love to do that. Just explain, and show some examples, of what you do so we can learn from it. Leave your Wellies at your own doorstep.



Jan 22, 2012 at 11:06 PM
ukphotographer
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p.5 #10 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
If you spend 41 years and still counting taking photographs starting with B&W film and everything made since, above and underwater, with everything from a Minox B to a 30" x 40" camera the size of your garage, every type of photographic light source (including carbon arc), gain intinctive situational awareness of light, master the zone system, shoot professionally with top pro, work in the National Geographic Labs, teach a college class on reproduction for photo lithography for five years, and manage a worldwide publishing enterprise for 28 years as I have you'll find there's more to this that you
...Show more

I was going to just leave this, but your point about comparing the target indoors completely fails unless the target is correctly lit. Despite me pointing out the reflections on the card in the first instance you did exactly the same with the card here. My point had nothing to do with the other scales you removed -- but their glossy surface shown up the error far easier.

Removing part of the target doesn't solve the problem that you are reflecting your source directly off your card back to your camera. If your card was a mirror you would be seeing your flash or lighting square on in the face of the card. It needs to be angled to interupt the reflection.

Manufacturers go to great lengths to matt down their targets to prevent such reflection, but when used to directly reflect the light back into the camera lens, it defeats the whole point of the calibration and makes using them as reference completely useless.

Given the black cat/ white cat/ coal cellar scenario, hopefully you'd take the opportunity to light the subject to best illustrate them and not blast the scene and hope it - boringly - fits the sensor. Or perhaps not?



Jan 23, 2012 at 03:36 AM
RDKirk
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p.5 #11 · Strobist


As far as my challenging Mr Gardner to pull off his fully exploited luminance curve while using the white towel to photograph his suggested black cat on coal, it is as much rhetorical as it is meant to call the bluff on what is patently not possible. All one has to do is think about it. If there are no bright whites in the photo scene, and you bring in a bright white towel to set the exposure, and you then take the towel out for the final shot, I can guarantee you there will be no far right data where...Show more

A black cat in a coal bin is a low key image. Period. I really is. And unless it's the intention of the photographer to reproduce it unnaturally, then it should be reproduced as a low key image. However, not even the black cat in the coal bin is utterly devoid of Zone 8 tones--not if you've smartly lighted it to reveal the luminance of its glossy coat (or the luminance of the facets of the coal, for that matter).

No, the histogram will not be "filled out," but filling out the histogram is not the point, and it's not even the point of "expose to the right." Exposing the sensor to reproduce the scene accurately is the point.



Jan 23, 2012 at 07:46 AM
alohadave
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p.5 #12 · Strobist


RDKirk wrote:
No, the histogram will not be "filled out," but filling out the histogram is not the point, and it's not even the point of "expose to the right." Exposing the sensor to reproduce the scene accurately is the point.


The point of expose to the right is to expose your scene so that you have the least noise in the shadows. That means that you move the histogram as far to the right of histogram without losing important detail.

Exposing a black cat on coal would mean that the shot ends up looking middle gray in camera, then you pull the picture back in post to the correct look.

It gives you far better noise performance, at the requirement that you nail your highlights perfectly.



Jan 23, 2012 at 08:28 AM
RDKirk
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p.5 #13 · Strobist


The point of expose to the right is to expose your scene so that you have the least noise in the shadows. That means that you move the histogram as far to the right of histogram without losing important detail.Exposing a black cat on coal would mean that the shot ends up looking middle gray in camera, then you pull the picture back in post to the correct look.

It gives you far better noise performance, at the requirement that you nail your highlights perfectly.


But notice what I emphasized in your statement and what said above: "The Zone 8 highlights in the subject might be much smaller--but are still incredibly pictorially important."

There are almost always Zone 8 tones in a scene, and those Zone 8 tones are almost always pictorially important even if they are small. Our eyes and brains rarely ever "lose" those tones naturally--our irises close down to retain highlights and allow shadows to go black rather than vice versa.

In the black cat in the coal bin scenario, we would want to properly capture the highlights on the fur and render them as "highlights on fur" rather than blank white spots, and yes let the shadows go black. That's how our eyes and brains would render the image.

So we would not blindly shove exposure to the right just to make the histogram look "right." That would push the Zone 8 tones beyond recovery and we end up with "ash and chalk" instead of chrisp rendition of highlighted fur.



Jan 23, 2012 at 10:47 AM
alohadave
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p.5 #14 · Strobist


RDKirk wrote:
But notice what I emphasized in your statement and what said above: "The Zone 8 highlights in the subject might be much smaller--but are still incredibly pictorially important."

There are almost always Zone 8 tones in a scene, and those Zone 8 tones are almost always pictorially important even if they are small. Our eyes and brains rarely ever "lose" those tones naturally--our irises close down to retain highlights and allow shadows to go black rather than vice versa.

In the black cat in the coal bin scenario, we would want to properly capture the highlights on the fur and render them
...Show more

I don't know or use Zones. So the talk of Zone 8 is lost on me.

I was expanding on your post, not disagreeing with it.



Jan 23, 2012 at 10:53 AM
RDKirk
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p.5 #15 · Strobist


"Zone 8" is "textured white." It would include, for instance, the texture of lace on a wedding dress at full length and the texture of the white fabric weave in a closeup, or in a headshot the texture of pale skin.


Jan 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM
cgardner
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p.5 #16 · Strobist


@UK

I understand the point you make. There is glare off the gray card but I don't use the gray card for evaluating anything. I use the gray card for one thing, setting Custom WB, and when I do that I ensure it is angled and free from glare. The the context of the exposure phase of the workflow seen in that shot its role just mostly to hold the MacBeth chart and towels, which I usually hang over the card on a stand at subject position when setting lights for a portrait session.

I've used process control targets for years in my reproduction work and am well aware of why Macbeth makes their target out of matte construction paper vs. a more durable material. As you say to prevent glare when placed square to the camera in a test shot like this.

The overall lighting is what it is in that test shot because it is a test shot using natural light on a overcast day. The weather was crappy and I didn't want to go out in the yard and set up a stand so I just laid it on the porch and shot if from the front door. So don't assume that's typical usage. I seldom actually make a direct comparison of target to screen or print except when testing because I know by looks sight when it looks correct or not because I see it in every test shot I take in a wide variety of lighting conditions.

In any case I don't see any glare on the MacBeth target. The matte solid white patch has a .05 reflected density (90% reflection) correctly exposed at an eyedropper value of 250 in all channels. In the test shot it averages 246 in the JPG with the eyedropper tool; which while isn't dead center in the bullseye at 250 is still on it as far as I'm concerned as my capture baseline.

Again please try to understand this isn't a shot to evaluate lighting pattern but simply as a guide to first determining if the camera DR can handle the contrast of the lighting. My goal is to expose my RAW file about 1/3 stop below clipping in solid white objects like the white towel or .05 / 90% reflectance patch on the Macbeth target.

http://super.nova.org/TP/TargetNew_Step1.jpg

The white towel used with the clipping warning is like a radar detector in a car. It doesn't prevent me from speeding when I know I can get away with it (i.e. blowing some highlights) but using it and getting a warning makes me aware when and where I will be "speeding" and pay the fine of not having any highlight detail in the final steps of my total workflow.

Back in my zone system days I had situation awareness of scene range and how flat or cross lighting and overcast affected the same scene because I anal-retentively spot metered the scene with this 1° spot meter.

http://super.nova.org/TP/HoneywellSpotMeter.jpg

That photo would be how the meter was set after reading the EV value of the shadow detail at "3". The zone indication added to the meter was moved to put the 3 between Zone 0 (no detail black) and Zone 1(shadow with first detail revealed). Back then Adams had not assigned a Zone # to specular highlights and Zone 9 is were you would place a solid white object on the overall tonal range of the print. Later Adams added a Zone 10 (specular highlights white paper base of print) because of confusion about what a Zone 9 white was.

Zone 9 in metering a scene of a white car would be the part of the paint as it would appear without glare or modeling in flat light — a reflected density value of .05 log(100/90) due to the fact it reflected 90% of the incident light. That would not be the brightest white in the scene. Those would be in the specular reflections of the light on the white paint and chrome bumpers. With the spot meter it would be the non-specular white I would meter to determine scene range because it's the range WITH DETAIL I wanted to control.

The ZS was calibrated with testing so "normal" development time of the negative would fit a sunny cross-lit scene to a #2 print expose for black on the clear parts of a negative. For it to work as planned you first had to perfectly nail the exposure for the shadows perfectly to avoid loss of detail (the expose for the shadows part), then with testing find what film development time fit the highlights to the #2 print contrast range. That was done as below...

Put a subject in the direct sun. Expose for Zone 1 shadow detail. Shoot 4-5 sheets or rolls of film at that exposure. Develop the film for different times. Make prints from each exactly the same way, with print black set to the border of the negative..
http://super.nova.org/TP/ZS_Test.jpg

That's one my ZS tests from back '71 when I was learning how to use it. After making the four prints I laid them together for comparison. In person the differences are more obvious. As film development is increased the same exposure produces more density on the net. So in the test shots the shadows are all the same, but as the development time increased the highlights go from looking gray and underexposed to blown and overexposed. Somewhere in the middle there was a print where the highlights was perfect, and so was everything in middle. That became your "normal" development time (the develop of the highlights part of the B&W film paradigm).

What that meant in practical terms was that for any photo taken on a clear sunny day with B&W film if you simply zone metered the shadows and used the same development time as in the test you would have no trouble in the darkroom producing prints that looked every bit as good as the teacher's. That was after all the point of buying the books and learning the technique and was Adams became a legend — he simplified the process and make it simple for anyone to duplicate his results — IF THEY ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD AND FOLLOWED HIS WORKFLOW.

Sunlight is consistent, so for example if EV3 correctly exposed the shadows, the brightness in the Zone 9 highlights in that sunny seen would also always have a consistent meter reading 8 f/stops brighter at EV11.

When out shooting with the tripod and medium format (in later years) after metering the shadows to set exposure I would find and meter a white object I wanted to render as solid white on the print, and note its EV reading. I knew a "normal" scene should read EV11. If the meter was anything other than EV11 it told me immediately out in the field that when I got back to the darkroom to make a full range print with perceptually correct looking highlights I had to do one of two things: 1) develop my film different than the "normal" time to fit #2 paper range, or; 3) use a different grade paper.

In actual practice I did both, depending on the situation. In college if going out with with tripod and fine grain film to shoot with the traditional ZS approach I did it exactly as Adams had in the 40's when he wrote the books, altering film development for each scene range photographed and printing everything on #2 paper. I was using a pair of Nikon Fs at the time, bought bulk film and loaded my own 10 exp. film cassettes so I didn't waste a lot of film.

For my PJ work for the student paper and other jobs I was able to get from the college I used the contemporary approach of only using one "normal" development time, then if the scene range wasn't a normal sunny day fit the negative's range to the print by using a different grade paper. By then Kodak had developed a paper called "Polycontrast" that changed contrast depending on whether the light in the enlarger was yellow or magenta. I still would spot meter the scene and take note of whether it had a "normal" baseline 8 stop Z1>Z9 range so when I got in the darkroom I knew how to filter the paper to match the negative. We had a little automatic tabletop processor in the darkroom (conveniently located in the basement of my dorm). When shooting on a deadline I could be hand the newspaper a finished print within an hour of shooting because there wasn't much trial and error in the workflow.

http://super.nova.org/TP/BW4.jpg

I didn't get a chance to set up my own darkroom again until the late '70s, after Zucker and working as a lab tech at Geographic and expanding my understanding of how to control tonal range with B&W using the methods I just described and color film by using key and fill to change the scene range to fit the fixed range of that medium. Although I didn't have any plans to make color prints at that point I bought a Bessler enlarger with an expensive color head for the convenience of being able to just dial in any yellow/magenta filter pack vs. using gel filters. That gave me better control of fitting negative to paper when using the normal development / polycontrast approach. Out of habit and SOP when working as a lab tech I documented everything I did and used control targets like the transparent step scales show below to measure the tonal ranges. DPReview uses a similar backlit transparent scale to measure camera DR:

When shooting on a deadline I could be hand the newspaper a finished print within an hour of shooting because there wasn't much trial and error in the workflow.

http://super.nova.org/TP/ZS_LabNotes.jpg

I still occasionally used the traditional ZS approach of bespoke development of the neg to fit #2 paper but most things I shot for my amusement where not that critical and Polycontrast approach was a easier way to achieve the same end goal, prints with full tonal range. My technical goal with digital is similar — prints and screen image with full tonal range — created as conveniently as possible.

When going to work for Zucker I connected the dots between why he used two flashes for color in a key over even fill configuration with my ZS experience in B&W. The contrast of color negs can't be adjusted by development because the film has three color layers. Both the film and print development is the same all the time. That means when a scene didn't fit the range of the color paper on a sunny day it was necessary to CHANGE THE SCENE CONTRAST WITH FLASH RATIO.

Outdoors in sun with color film you adjust the camera exposure is perceptually correct. What I mean by that is for a subject backlit by the sun you wound not expose to the right or left for highlight or shadow detail you would aim for the middle and get the faces looking correct. That would often blow the highlights and loose shadow detail but that was less important than the faces. That how setting exposure off a gray card or the palm of an outstretched hand came to be a common practice. The tone of an 18% gray card is similar to that of the average between the shadows and highlights on caucasian face. So if you took your Luna Pro and took reflective reading off the card or palm you by aiming for the middle you'd get the faces looking "normal".

That aim for the middle and get the faces normal approach also works quite well with digital, if you don't mind losing highlight and shadow detail. For example if you were to shoot a backlit subject in fully automated TTL metering your camera would bias the exposure in the same way average metering a card or making an incident reading with a Sekonic L-358 would if placed near the shaded side of the face and aimed at the lens. At ISO100 and 1/200th shutter speed the aperture setting would be f/4, plus or minus the influence of any bounced light hitting the front in addition to the sky light. The sky and any sunlit highlights on the subject's skin will be overexposed by 2 stops or more. If that's OK with you then that's the way you should roll. I prefer detail in my shadows so I do things differently...

http://super.nova.org/TP/TargetNewStep2.jpg

After setting the camera in M mode based on keeping the white towel entirely under clipping (for headroom in the entire workflow through JPG) I can look at the left side of the histogram and interpret what is trying to tell me. Here in this test shot for exposure it is telling me that the overcast light, while flat, is still exceeding the camera DR somewhat. In sunlight a backlit scene will have the histogram piled up more on the left as in this example:

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_Backlight.jpg

At that point I have a decision to make. Do I want to leave exposure biased for perceptually correct highlights knowing it will not correctly render all darker tones, or do I want to change the camera settings and allow the highlights to clip to make the shaded side more "normal" looking? A can choose to do either one, but I find it is a more informed choice by first doing step one in my workflow — expose the highlights correctly (i.e. so they look normal).

Usually in a situation like that where correctly rendered foreground content is more important than correctly exposing the background I will: add dual flash to render the foreground with a full range and natural looking modeling....
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5035.jpg
The if the underexpose background is a distraction isolate the foreground with cropping...

http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5035_Cropped.jpg

Is that a flash shot or one in sunlight? Most viewers without knowing the techniques used don't know the difference. My goal in a shot like that is make it looks similar to what would be perceived by eye without any obvious clues flash was used. The glare UK finds objectionable in the test card shot wasn't flash, but overcast natural light that was as diffuse as outdoor lighting gets. It looked the same way by eye in than orientation.


These ZS annotated flash shot illustrate that is "normal" in the highlights for exposure varies depending on the lighting scheme used. I don't set exposure via the target the adjust the lights, I adjust the lighting angles until the subject is rendered as I want it to be then use the target to guide scene range and exposure.

For example in this speedlight shot I adjusted the lights to eliminate any glare from the lenses of the eyeglasses, but knew there would be some on the metal frames but that was OK.

http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGaryZS.jpg

Since all the lighting was in front I adjusted to make my key light create Zone 9 white on the towel and Zone 1tone in the shadows of the shirt. As with most things I know how to do that several ways manually and via ETTL but verify the results the same way:

1) Adjust overall exposure until towel clips then reduce it by 1/3 stop
2) Look at the shadows and make sure they have detail.

Key and overall exposure was set to render white highlights on front side Zone 9 white. In this studio shot I used back rim light and wanted to retain detail on the target ....
http://super.nova.org/TP/WhiteBGTowelCard1ZS.jpg
so when I put the subject in the same spot the white clothing will still have detail in the JPGs where the rim light hits it.
http://super.nova.org/TP/Ann/0470_Screen.jpg

The difference that someone like RDKirk who has used the zone system will grasp that perhaps others with less experience might not is that in the second shot with backlight the white objects on the front are not Zone 9 white as in the speedlight shot, but moved down one zone darker to Zone 8 to retain the perceptual ambience of the rim lighting while still managing to retain a full range of detail Zone 9 > Zone 1 in the overall print, with the only 255 values occuring in specular reflections and the only 0 values falling in deep voids where a detail would not be expected.

Because I started with the zone system I think in terms of zones, which are scene and print tonal values not f/stops of light measured in the scene as many today who never used it erroneously assume. My creative process starts by looking at the scene with my eyes and deciding what I want Zone 9 and Zone 1. It just so happens in most situations the reflectance of the black towel matches the reflectance of the darkest object in the scene an the white one matches the reflectance of the brightest one. So by putting just the two towels in the same light as the scene as proxies I can, with a few shots of the target, set lighting ratio to record the entire range with no loss of detail.

It makes exposing shots like this Chanel purse quick and very simple...
http://super.nova.org/TP/Chanel255.jpg
That's a type of shot where the detail in the white background isn't at all important but the specular reflections on the black surface are to model it's 3D shape and texture. That's a 2005 commemorative edition of the original design and the photograph is accurately reproducing the impression of the leather's texture by eye. There are a lot of different ways I could have adjusted ratio and exposure for that shot but I used the one described here and it only took about a minute and didn't involve a hand held meter. That's why I use the approach, it's quick and produces predictable results all the way to the final step of making a 900 x 600 pixel sharpened JPG.

Again it works for me. If you can't wrap your head around the concept and see it's merits that's fine. If you are too suborn to try it some time and help wrap your head around it that's fine too.




Jan 23, 2012 at 01:45 PM
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p.5 #17 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
@UK

Again it works for me. If you can't wrap your head around the concept and see it's merits that's fine. If you are too suborn to try it some time and help wrap your head around it that's fine too.

It works for me.


OK, don't get shirty or arrogant with me, I don't reflect my lights off any targets, it's not professional and doesn't provide any useful purpose even if it's only ambient I'm using. At the same time -- your method doesn't cope with silver, reflective whites or chrome which I cope competently with and have been 'wrapping my head around it' ever since I was setting up colour profiles for closed and open loop camera backs, printers and press/paper management from the camera position and not from the darkroom... so I don't need you accusing of any stubbornness on my part.

For your flat grey card the illumination is all over the place, you're reflecting your light off the board and the grey shifts by over 30 points or 40% over the face of the card. Your lens vignette might be a contributory factor, but as an example of correct exposure - despite the MacBeth and its obvious frame glare - the histogram also illustrates a bias towards the shadows and I wouldn't want to use this for any calibration whatsoever.

I politely pointed out that you were reflecting your lightsource off your card - then in your opinion you fixed it. In my opinion you didn't.. the fault is EXACTLY the same as previous, right down to the same shaped histogram.

http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/TargetNew3.jpg

Not one for pixel peeping, I had a look at your HSS Fill Flash images to see whether your idea of a correct exposure is consistent.. it doesn't appear so, not even by the numbers, this one you describe as 'correctly rendered foreground content':

http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5035_Cropped.jpg

It bears no resemblance to your new target sample - this one is underexposed.. your new one is overexposed presumably your MacBeth and grey card are correct here too? There's 50 points difference in the 'correct' grey card rendition of both of these and neither are correct.

Can you see how wrong this is?



Jan 23, 2012 at 03:54 PM
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p.5 #18 · Strobist


The first shot was shot and posted just to show I'd taken the other glare producing targets off it. Although not much of the towels are shown there I did expose for the highlights 1/3 stop below clipping per camera warning in the white one. It was not an attempt to record the full tonal range accurately, in fact just the opposite. I bracketed exposure and selected the RAW file with no HIGHLIGHT clipping evident. Any HIGHLIGHT clipping in the JPG is a result of conversion from 16 bit ProPhoto to 8 bit JPG sRGB. That was explained previously in the overcast day shot of the front yard done at the same time. The shadows in the shot are clipping in some areas because my camera sensor range could not handle the range of the natural light, despite it being nearly uniform between where the sun was lurking behind the clouds and the opposite skyward direction. Again try to understand my use of that type of shot at that stage of my workflow is entirely based on what is happening on the white and black towels which are my stand in for a full scene range. What was trying to determine by "exposing to the right" by 1/3 stop under clipping in the camera warning was if shadows were clipping.

The second shot is the result of first setting the shutter / aperture based on clipping in sunlit parts of the ambient only test shot as the first step in an HHS test I was performed in 2010 before starting to also use a folded black towel for evaluating shadows and fill. The difficult visually judging the shadow detail in this test via the playback is one of the reasons I added the black towel in the shot you originally questioned.

Before flash it looked like this when exposed for Zone 9 in the sunlit parts in ACR in the unaltered RAW state:

http://super.nova.org/EDITS/5034ss.jpg

The red is the ACR highlight clipping warning. I was judging from the camera playback warning and was off a bit. The blue warning is ACR telling me where there wasn't any shadow detail recorded. I would love to have a similar shadow clipping warning in my camera, which would be technically possible. It's one of those things an engineer probably would suggest as a useful feature but the market department would veto because it would make the photographer aware of how poorly the sensor covers the full range of an outdoor scene.

This is the second shot you find fault with in ACR after adding the flash.
http://super.nova.org/EDITS/5035SS.jpg
I adjusted the highlights with recover in that shot until the red highlight clipping warning of ACR is barely showing in the brighter sunlit parts of the towel and specular reflections on the stand locking knobs. The blue shadow clipping warning of ACR is visible in the background. I did not adjust that before opening in CS5 and making the JPG you linked.

By comparison of the flash shot (5035) with the ambient only shot (5034) one frame earlier you can see some of the foreground flash reach the trees to eliminate some of the shadow clipping. What is remaining simply reflects the fact my sensor couldn't handle the range. Since the loss of detail in that situation is not significant it just not worry me. I am aware of the problem and for lighter backgrounds to begin when I want want to wind up with one in the final result.

As for the black patches on the foreground target lit by the flash? By goal was a full range on the target (possible with dual flash indoors or out) not the full scene (only God can light the world and Canon hasn't caught up to him with sensor range yet). As shown in the eye dropper readings and corresponding + marks in the image the target's black patches are in the 14-18 range above clipping.

I intentionally arrange the towel so the key flash would shade the black patch in the Macbeth target. That way only the skylight and centered fill flash is reaching it, a worst case scenario for scene range. As shown in the eye dropper readings and corresponding + marks in the image the target's black patches (reading 1 and 2) are in the 13-17 range above clipping with just the fill and the other hit by key and fill are a bit higher. All are above clipping.

At 100% enlargement there is a visible difference between the black patch and the slightly larger frame and detail in the flash lit highlights of the white towel...
http://super.nova.org/EDITS/5035ss2.jpg

In my normal workflow I will tweek files with Recover / Fill / Black adjustments in ACR. I did not do it in those shots the goal was to determine max range for my 580ex flashes in HSS mode, base on fill opening the shadows and the key light raising the highlights until they were perceptually correct looking (Zone 8) for a backlit shot, a bit darker than the sunlit parts.

The disconnect here is goal for the first test shot wasn't correct exposure but to see if the black towel would be underexposed when the white one was 1/3 below clipping per camera to allow for PP changes RAW > JPG. The camera histogram on the left showed me it was. That's all I use a shot like that for. The fact the MacBeth chart is on it for that test shot is because taping it to the bigger card keeps me from losing it. The second shot is from the dual flash part of that flash with the goal of finding fill and key distances needed to produce a full range in the foreground with both flashes at 1/1 power. That occurred at 10ft and 6ft for fill and key respectively. Correctly exposing the background was not a goal of the test and in that situation physically impossible due to sensor range.

The shot below is more typical of how I use the MacBeth Chart...

http://super.nova.org/TP/ColorChartACRstyles.jpg

After Custom WB and the lights are adjusted to taste for the shot with towel feedback, followed by final tweeking with subject under the lights I have them hold the target for a baseline reference shot.

Because I set Custom WB I don't need to worry about RGB balance in neutrals out of camera when I open the reference shot. I also don't cared what tone the gray card is rendered at this point or ever really. What matters to me are:

1) Highlight detail
2) Shadow detail
3) The impression created by lighting matching the context of the expression
4) The skintone vs how it appears by eye.

I tweek the last two on the camera profile tab shown it the screen shot. It allows me to adjust skin tone with sliders without shifting the neutrals. I most cases I don't change it much.




Jan 23, 2012 at 06:39 PM
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p.5 #19 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
Here's the test shot with a flash lit foreground.
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5035.jpg
The problem with that flash strategy, to the extent there is one is that exposing the sunny highlights on the back of the towel winds up underexposing everything beyond the range of the flash by about 2-3 stops. Why? It still exceeds the sensor range as in the ambient only shot before flash is added.



You used this card as an illustration for your range of HSS along with your ramblings here.

This image uses 2 flashes in HSS and yet is still underexposed.

If like in this thread we're discussing the capabilities of small flashes, it would be useful to make comparisons of like with like. Unless the exposure levels of the images being compared have close proximity to a correct rendition then their use is pointless, as here. This serves no purpose other than to illustrate an image with retained highlights (of merit, provided by the sun) of an underexposed grey card (exposed by your flash - pointless). The resulting image is supposed to illustrate the capabilities of HSS and its range with the working aperture in sunlight. Unfortunately it illustrates an underexposed flash rendition with any subsequent calculations deducted from it being incorrect. Had the card been correctly exposed, calculations from it would be viable.

Your recent posting in the Canon HSS thread here illustrates my point:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1076819

cgardner wrote:
http://super.nova.org/TP/HSS/_MG_5026.jpg

I found the max. range at ISO 100 was about 7ft.



...suddenly your range is halved.

If you were able to set your flashes to the ratios you require in TTL and put them in position and shoot as you were leading people to believe, then that could be useful. But where your results illustrate flash underexposure, and the requirement of double your output capabilities for only 7 feet and unmodified, then here, I think you're trying to sell a dream which doesn't exist apart from in the world of Photoshop post processing.



Jan 24, 2012 at 06:57 AM
Beni
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p.5 #20 · Strobist


RDKirk wrote:
But notice what I emphasized in your statement and what said above: "The Zone 8 highlights in the subject might be much smaller--but are still incredibly pictorially important."

There are almost always Zone 8 tones in a scene, and those Zone 8 tones are almost always pictorially important even if they are small. Our eyes and brains rarely ever "lose" those tones naturally--our irises close down to retain highlights and allow shadows to go black rather than vice versa.

In the black cat in the coal bin scenario, we would want to properly capture the highlights on the fur and render them
...Show more

That isn't actually the concept of 'expose to the right'. With expose to the right you never clip important highlights, you expose so that the histogram is as far to the right as possible without clipping those highlights. In your example you would expose as much to the right as possible while making sure the gloss is fully preserved. This should put your cat around the centre of the histogram which in turn will give more information in the file for subsequent processing. ETTR may sometimes only provide a small benefit or none at all as important highlights may be already close to clipping, the concept is to always expose as close to the right as possible without clipping highlights that need to be preserved so that your darks retain the most information possible. If you expose the scene to match the accuracy of the tones you may not need any work when processing but the darker the shadows the more noise there will be there.

Whether you buy into ETTR or not is of course dependant on yourself. You can't teach the zone system to a tranny shooter but that doesn't make the choice of slide film wrong. Different situations call for different metering strategies. Those who preach a 'one fits all' solution to any type of photography but especially this kind of thing are to be kept away from as much as possible. They are a danger to any photographer. I think that your example and your explanation based on your experience in lighting/exposure proves this point. You need to be able to judge what elements of an image should sit where on the scale so that you can judge your exposure or even begin to choose a metering strategy. There is no one strategy which will work in every or even most cases. Those who claim that there is should get out more and stop pretending that they are educators.



Jan 24, 2012 at 07:25 AM
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