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Archive 2012 · Strobist

  
 
cgardner
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p.4 #1 · Strobist


Share your views Doug which is why I own Vivitars, Canon, and Alien Bee lights.

I pick the best tool for each task. For most of the photos I take the Canon flashes are the best tools for the job. If I worked for paying clients I might use other tools, but like you I enjoy the freedom to do photography my own way as a hobby.



Jan 19, 2012 at 10:24 PM
gridironphoto
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p.4 #2 · Strobist


I also agree. I have studio lights for work, but I can carry 4 flashes in my camera bag and I have a baseball bat bag that I carry in the back of my truck with a couple of light stands, some modifiers and hardware, so I can mess around and set up some fun shots at the spur of the moment. One upside to this is that I am not carrying around a ton of valuable equipment outside of my camera bag, so I can be more impulsive and its there when I need it. No special planning.


Jan 20, 2012 at 12:20 AM
ukphotographer
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p.4 #3 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
I pick the best tool for each task. For most of the photos I take the Canon flashes are the best tools for the job. If I worked for paying clients I might use other tools, but like you I enjoy the freedom to do photography my own way as a hobby.


So lets be clear. You're a hobbyist - but not a Strobist Hobbyist as you've taken that to a higher level - that of TTL Strobist Hobbyist?

And you don't do 'jobs' - you play without consequence. David Hobby is a professional and is reliant on getting paid for his work without cock-ups, you Chuck are a hobbyist and you object to David not using TTL and to you - he's a Luddite because of it. David discovered his Manual way works all the time -- and you even agree with him on that as it works better than your TTL method does for you too...


I explain that in any static situation manual control as Hobby suggested is better than TTL:


and


The only fault I ever found in Hobby's approach was that when the new Nikon CLS flashes became available he never tried them to the point of understanding how to make it work and finding workarounds to its limitations....

...Hobby in advocating his approach did so by convincing people that every other approach was inferior....


How does that make your paradigm more appropriate, other than it isn't? BS.. it's not appropriate at all. All it is appropriate for is a hobbyist wanting an easy fix for off camera lighting but which is suceptible to camera/EC/metering/subject/FEC/settings/Line of sight/distance/brightness/output issues.

All you're doing is exactly the same as you accuse David of doing - which is advocating an approach which you want people to perceive as more appropriate. Off camera flash set up manually (Hobby's approach) will work all the time - optical TTL technology (your approach) can work, sometimes, maybe(?), and can be convenient but with restrictions and needing workarounds. If you ever find yourself needing to use your equipment and for it to work reliably, then you'll soon find out how unreliable it becomes, especially at the point you most require it to be reliable.

There's occasions that all methods can be made appropriate, but calling another photographer a Luddite for not advocating to shoot using one inferior method when it is fraught with suspicion and pitfalls is just sour grapes.



Jan 20, 2012 at 12:33 PM
cgardner
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p.4 #4 · Strobist


No I haven't been shooting any weddings for hire lately but I haven't stopped shooting, learning, buying and testing new equipment and adapting my methods as I found new tools did the job better since I bought my first good camera in 1969, a Nikonos II underwater camera. You don't need to make your living at something your entire life to become proficient at it and often the more other things you do that are related in some way give you better perspective that someone working in professionally in a narrow niche of a profession.

I started as a photo journalist in college and worked briefly with a free-lance PJ on Capitol Hill in the summer of 1972 before seeing Zucker's ad, responding and getting hired. After that I worked at National Geographic where nearly everything I did was related to photo journalism on the highest level. How does that compare to your first two jobs?
Photography and photographic lab work was the source of 100% of my income from when I left school in 1972 — 1977. I moonlighted teaching a college class in reproduction photography from 1975-1980. In my third job at a large high quality magazine printer I went from new hire to production manager in a little over a year. When I was 30 I went into the foreign service managing a 140 person printing plant in the Philippines as production manager and retired after managing nearly all aspects of the business, and occasionally taking photos for it....

http://super.nova.org/TP/State04.jpg

While photography has been an avocation it's one that has included B&W zone system and color print making, medium format, underwater photography and video. While I didn't shoot as a business everywhere I worked I would up shooting portraits, covering events, and shooting promotional materials in the same way and with the same tools a paid photographer would. Most of the things we now do in Photoshop I did with analog methods, drum scanners and other professional graphic arts tools in the 70s-90s. I bought my first digital camera in 1995 and posted the photos I took with it on the Internet the same year. Since going fully digital in 2000 I've taught photography classes sponsored by Kodak Philippines, taught and was keynote speaker at Graphic Arts show there, and more recently had my Canon tutorials recommended to his readers by Chuck Westfall of Canon in his on-line column.

The Canon speedlight tutorials are only about 10% of the content on my web site. My main interest for the past five or six years has been exploring the psychological and emotional cause and effect of things how clothing, backgrounds, lighting patterns and ratios and other factors create different reactions in the mind of the viewer, what perceptual clues tell them lighting is artificial vs natural and what cause and effect creates the illusion of 3D and "hard" and "soft" on a 2D screen or sheet of paper.

Based on hanging out on this and similar forums for 17 years now I would venture a guess that over 90% of the people who ask questions are hobbyist starting out. The majority of people I've helped learn this stuff just want to learn to use the tools competently so they can take decent looking photos of the wife and kids. So in that context I think an experienced hobbyist is even better qualified to give advice to new hobbyists than a professional. Because I also did it for a living and know how difficult that I can frame advice based on understanding how what a hobbyist really needs is different from a working professional like David Hobby.

Back before Hobby arrived on the scene I was one of the few advocating using speedlights vs. the only other alternatives at the time people considered; halogen shop lights or studio flashes. The strobist movement gained traction just as I had switched to Canon. ETTL-II evaluative metering had been recently introduced and few understood how it actually worked. I tested, found out and shared my findings. I wasn't anti-anything I was pro everything: manual, ettl, and hss because I used all three.

I don't have a single approach I use many. The reason I switched to Canon after 30+ years of using only manual flash was to use more methods, without needing to buy multiple sets of tools. With a press of a button I can shoot manual or ETTL with either conventional or high-speed sync. When I found my speed lights limiting I bought a set of speed lights as well. I also know how to use natural light quite well. I suggest people try them all, starting with the cheapest, window light.

I didn't call Hobby a Luddite because his method was inferior but because like the Luddites in the face of improved technology he refused to use it on "ethical" principle (his term). I just tried to give people an alternative viewpoint to counter his continual bashing Canon's "IR" system. I risked $800 of my money to find out whether Canon's system worked or not 2005. I wasn't money I could expense and Canon didn't sponsor me. If never advocated only TTL as you claim. If you bothered to check my web site you'd find I teach people how to used manual or TTL, how to use an incident meter, and how they can live without one if they are on a tight budget.

It wasn't like Hobby was giving beginners a balanced view of the available tools. He was more like a used car dealer with a lot full of old stick shift cars (BSB-28 flashes) who had convinced people looking for their first car that manual transmission is the only ethical way to shift a car.

Some pros on the forum tend to give advice based on the assumption the goal of everyone is to be a pro, giving advice along the lines suggesting that everyone should set their sights on driving at LeMans and should buy a Ferrari as a first car instead of a Ford.

My advice was more along the lines of explaining how an automatic transmission works and why it makes it easier and less hassle to go down the motorway to grocery store or work than a manual shift and less expensive than a Ferrari.

Give the reader some credit. I do. I expect anyone after getting input from all quarters to make a more informed decision what is likely to work best for their goals and budget.

Then as now with Canon flash you get manual, automatic and overdrive. Where are the people who followed Hobby's original advice of five years ago? Still using manual flash, while his as moved on to other methods he can afford because he can write off whatever gear he doesn't get for free now from sponsors.



Jan 20, 2012 at 11:20 PM
alohadave
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p.4 #5 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
I didn't call Hobby a Luddite because his method was inferior but because like the Luddites in the face of improved technology he refused to use it on "ethical" principle (his term). I just tried to give people an alternative viewpoint to counter his continual bashing Canon's "IR" system. I risked $800 of my money to find out whether Canon's system worked or not 2005. I wasn't money I could expense and Canon didn't sponsor me. If never advocated only TTL as you claim. If you bothered to check my web site you'd find I teach people how to used
...Show more

You saw one video where he used the word ethical. Please link to it.

He recommended the SB-28 flashes because they were cheap, had manual control, and readily available on eBay for people who wanted to experiment with using flash. It turned out to make the price of the flashes more expensive as the blog became popular.

He never sold flashes or recommended specific gear to readers (besides in Lighting 101 with SB-28s, but he also specified that any manual control flash works). He simply told what he used and uses and why. Lots of other companies have made lots of money by selling gear, he makes his from the advertising on his blog, and jobs that he has gotten as a result of his blog.

cgardner wrote:
Some pros on the forum tend to give advice based on the assumption the goal of everyone is to be a pro, giving advice along the lines suggesting that everyone should set their sights on driving at LeMans and should buy a Ferrari as a first car instead of a Ford.

My advice was more along the lines of explaining how an automatic transmission works and why it makes it easier and less hassle to go down the motorway to grocery store or work than a manual shift and less expensive than a Ferrari.

Give the reader some credit. I do.
...Show more

Throwing up a wall of text every time you post is not teaching. It's lecturing, and it's the exact same lecture every single time. Never modified to take the specific post into account.

cgardner wrote:
Then as now with Canon flash you get manual, automatic and overdrive. Where are the people who followed Hobby's original advice of five years ago? Still using manual flash, while his as moved on to other methods he can afford because he can write off whatever gear he doesn't get for free now from sponsors.


I'm curious how you think that ProPhoto strobes and AlienBee strobes work (since those are the studio strobes that he has purchased in the recent past, in addition to the White Lightnings that he used in the past). Neither of them have TTL. He's made no bones about his changed attitude toward TTL, but you'll still find that he uses manual flash quite extensively.

And so what if he has changed his mind about TTL? You made a change, is he not allowed to?



Jan 21, 2012 at 12:37 AM
erichard
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p.4 #6 · Strobist


hobbyist vs. Hobby-ist

I have a question. I haven't kept up with this forum, but has anyone challenged the principle assumption of using a white towel each and every time? The lecture seems to rely heavily on this white towel, but in a huge percentage of scenes, there are no whites reflecting nearly as much light as that very white towel. Even the "whites" of their eyes aren't truly Clorox white, yet they may be the brightest non-clipping highlight in a portrait. Sure, a true specular highlight in the eye from the flash itself may be whiter, but that is often expected to be blown. So while your luminance curve may look great with the towel in the photo, it seems to me, it won't necessarily look so great if you take the towel out, at the same exposure (data will end prematurely before hitting the whitest whites). It might, but many times it probably won't. So aren't you often leaving a significant degree of dynamic range on the table with this towel technique?

I think it'd just be better to look for clipping in areas where you expect no clipping. And in some limited cases even if there are bright whites, like the towel brightness, you may want to blow them anyway. I don't aim to avoid clipping for instance in a portrait with a snowy backdrop, even though the snow may represent a large section of the photo.

One technique that I use, that I've not seen written about elsewhere, is to actually find the exposure where critical clipping disappears on the LCD and then up the exposure one notch (1/3 to 1/2 stop). Even though some clipping is still seen here on the 8 bit LCD, in the 14bit 5DII sensor, you're still likely in safe territory (because the 8 bit sensor is too imprecise to let you know this from a 14 bit perspective). So this maxes out the dynamic range, and lowers overall noise in the shadows by exposing as far to the right as you can go judging by the LCD (one notch more than most folks do).




Jan 21, 2012 at 02:45 AM
cgardner
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p.4 #7 · Strobist


AlohaDave: I understood Hobby's approach and why he probably did it that way. Digital made his existing flashes obsolete, as were the Canon EZ line, due to pre-flash metering they could not do. Pocket Wizards were way to trigger the old flashes. Great for a professional photojournalist, but not necessarily for someone simply want to take better lit photos of the wife and kids, not for profit, just for fun and conveniently.

It wasn't about the relative advantages manual vs. ttl. I always made it clear I used both. It was about letting the beginners that knew nothing about either the advantages of both, and HSS, so the could decide for themselves which had the best balance of cost, function and convenience. The same with radio vs. optical triggering. I used optical triggering for over 30 years — successfully. Wien made triggers that work for at 1000'.

The only thing you couldn't do with optical triggering is work around other flash photographers who would trigger your slave. That would be a show stopper for a working photojournalist like Hobby that worked around other shooters, enough so to justify $450 worth of radio triggers he could depreciate as a business expense. But others triggering your optical flashes in a JP scrum isn't a problem encountered by Dad in the living room or yard shooting his kids without any other photographers around. As for shooting around corners and stuff like that? The Wein Peanut is designed to either fit into the base of a 283/285HV flash or on the male end of a PC cord

http://super.nova.org/TP/WeinPeanut285HV.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/SuperClampVivitar.jpg

I had a 15' Vivitar - PC sync cord and if I needed to trigger an out of sight flash in the next room I'd do it by gaffer taping the sensor on the cord somewhere it could see the camera but not be noticed. The Canon flashes are able to shoot through doorways all by themselves...

http://super.nova.org/TP/CanonEXrange1.jpg

So what I said about radios was this: Try the optical signaling first. A Wien Peanut cost $20 at the time. Then if optical didn't work for Dad in the living room he could buy the radios and only be out $20 but potentially also save $430 to put towards another flash if optical did work for him.

By now anyone working professionally should have both battery/inverter studio lights and a radio control system that allows Manual, TTL or HHS. But for the non-professional hobbyist my advice hasn't changed because it was, long term, the a better solution for a hobbyist than obsolete manual flashes and expensive radio triggers. The Canon system works fine if you understand how it works and can work within it's 50' range limit.



Jan 21, 2012 at 06:13 AM
cgardner
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p.4 #8 · Strobist


erichard wrote:
hobbyist vs. Hobby-ist

I have a question. I haven't kept up with this forum, but has anyone challenged the principle assumption of using a white towel each and every time? .... I think it'd just be better to look for clipping in areas where you expect no clipping... One technique that I use, that I've not seen written about elsewhere, is to actually find the exposure where critical clipping disappears on the LCD and then up the exposure one notch (1/3 to 1/2 stop).


The White Towel thing is consistently trolled and mocked but never challenged on it's technical merit or proven not to work.

It has it's genesis back when I was doing Zone System B&W. Adams, who was both craftsperson and artist always strived for a full range of detail in his photos similar to what might be seen as someone in person scanned and their pupils adjusted to highlight and shadow. Then once one managed the technical side so the photo fools the viewer's brain that a 2D reproduction is real you put something interesting in the photo.

My next job was shooting weddings for the photographer how popularized the two flash approach used by most wedding photograhers in the 70s and 80s because by using fill to lift the shadows and then overlapping key light it is quite simple indoors — no brainer simple — to record detail everywhere in the groom's black suit and bride's white dress all at the same time with color/print film which has a shorter range.

Capturing the image on the negative got fit the overall scene range to the final product, a print. Why was it important to record the full range as seen by eye? The simple fact photos look better when highlights aren't blown out or too gray and shadows have detail. That was possible with B&W without using flash, but not with color film because it had half the range. You would better understand this had you shot and developed your own B&W and color prints as I have.

With film photography the process didn't end at capture. With both B&W and color we routinely "post processed" by dodging and burning the midtones to alter them under the enlarger, a process similar to making shadow puppets on a wall with your hand. The paddle and cupped hand dodge and burn icons in Photoshop are a homage to those old manual techniques.

The requirements of a print made with a digital camera aren't any different from that of one made with film. They look more real when the white paper base with no ink is used to reproduce the brilliant sparkle of catchlight specular reflections and there is a full range of detail down into the shadows that match what the eye sees in person, not just what the digital sensor is able to capture. Flash is only necessary when the sensor can't match the scene range. You don't for example need flash on an overcast day or in open shade if no direct sunlit is visible in the shot. The used of two flashes in a key / fill arrangement changes the scene range to fit the sensor.

Why fit scene to sensor? That's what is required to get a full range of detail on the print that matches what was seen by eye so the print looks "normal" not over- or under-exposed.

Because the range of a sensor is shorter than outdoor lighting most of the time it is impossible to match scene to sensor most of the time, unless one uses flash or bracketed exposures and HDR post processing blending of the exposures.

Learning to control the technical aspects of reproduction is like driving: experience and practice increase understanding of how a car works and how to control it at will.

When you start out clueless about how the pedals and wheel react you are likely to wind up in a ditch because you don't know how to control the car. Once you learn how to drive a car and control it with precision there is nothing to prevent you from driving the car off into the ditch if you feel like it (i.e. intentionally blow highlights or block shadows).

When you master the skill of driving a car you will gain the ability to instinctively react to situations, like the back-end of the car sliding out on a slippery curve or a deer running out in front of the car.

At an even higher technical skill level one is able to use subtle feedback from the car to allow it negotiate the curve sideways in a four-wheel drift with front and back end kissing the two sides of the road. I used to love to drift my 68' BWM 2002 around the traffic circles in Washington.

The latter is what fitting scene to sensor is — exposing the scene so shadows and highlights just kiss both sides of the histogram.

All images, including a black cat on a coal pile, have critical highlight detail. On a black cat and coal most of the clues come from where the 255 specular reflections glint off the tops of the hair shafts in the fur and angular high points of the lumps of coal. The cat has white teeth and eyes. Not 255 white mind you. But to reproduce the scene and make EVERYTHING wind up looking real you would want the catchlights to be 255 and the teeth to be around 245-250.

The same is true with white on white. In that situation a very narrow range of tones define shape on objects such as the 3D shape of the gently curved hood of a white car. So its is even more important to control exposure so most of the car is rendered at around a 235-250 eye dropper range and on the higher parts of the surface 255 catchlights are seen.

With a white car or bride's dress its easy to get them rendered optimally by first raising exposure until the solid whites are clipping per the camera warning THEN BACKING OFF 1/3 stop. If you do that when the file is opened for editing you will find the specular highlights are clipping at 255 but the parts of the dress or car where you saw detail by eye are in the 235-250 range. The clipping warning is like a radar detector that prevents you from getting caught speeding.

What you perhaps don't appreciate yet is that the same control of highlight exposure is needed in the shot of the black cat in the coal bin. The 3D shape depends on the 255 specular highlights and ideally you want the teeth and eyes in the 235-250 range just below that. The problem when shooting is being able to see when that is happening. Unlike the white car or dress there is no big white object in the scene so you don't see the highlights very well or at all in either the clipping warning or the histogram bar height. That's the type of situation where I would "throw in the towel".

With the white towel sitting next to the black cat I can see when the towel, which has about the same range of tones as the whites of the eyes and teeth, clips in the playback. I then do the same thing as with the white dress—raise exposure until I see the whites start to clip, then back down 1/3 stop. In the image when opened I will find 255 specular reflections and correctly exposed teeth.

Using a white towel as an exposure aid is no different in concept than the practice years ago before spot meters of putting a gray card or the palm of the hand out in the same lighting as a scene and taking a meter reading off of it. Due to the properties of the neg/print process and how meters worked that was that was needed to produce a full range B&W print. With color exposing to the gray card would make it easier for the lab to get the faces looking normal, but wouldn't ensure there was detail in the sky or deep shadows. The same is true of digital. Assuming you own a gray card if you filled the viewfinder with it in the same light as the scene then used the same shutter/aperture/ISO to shoot the scene in your photo you would find a perfectly exposed mid-tones, but if scene exceeded the sensor range exposing for the middle will blow highlights and lose shadow detail.

When a scene does exceed sensor range and you don't have a way to change the scene lighting and contrast you are forced to decided whether to expose for the faces, if there are any in the shot, the sun lit highlights or the shadow detail. It's like moving and having more stuff than will fit on the truck and deciding to what to leave on the curb. If you actually try what you've read about — over exposing highlights by 1/3 stop — you will leave the highlight detail of your image on the curb.

Blowing highlights can work fine, if there is no important detail in the highlights. In the case of the black cat if the cat is small in the photo the difference between clipping the eyes and teeth vs. rendering them correctly probably will never be noticed by the viewer of the photo. But if it were a close-up portrait of dear little Midnight for the cat's owner you'd need to find some way to record both the teeth and the black parts of the cat accurately with detail at the same time. To do that you would need to learn to use flash to fit the range of the cat to the sensor. Once you learn how to do that you can not only shoot a decent close up photo of a black cat you will be able to photograph a black and white cat sitting together, both with life like detail?

How to you gain that skill? Practice controlling the scene range with a target the one I use when setting my lights in the studio:

http://super.nova.org/TP/CardTargetHisto.jpg

Turn on just the fill. Raise fill until you see detail in the folds of the black towel in the playback.

Then turn on the key light.

Raise the key light's power until you see the white towel start to clip, then back off until the clipping warning disappear.

What you will find in the file is a full range of tone. Now put anything in same spot and shoot it with the same lighting. It will have the same full range of tone and perfect exposure.

You will need to do this a few times before you'll be able to accurately judge the RAW shadows and highlights based on the camera feedback. But once you do you'll have the skills to record a full range of tone anytime at will. That will also give you the skills to opt to clip the highlights or shadows by a precise amount, like drifting the car with one wheel up in the air, not because it's the best way to control the car in a drift, but because you can.

When you can do all that please come back and challenge the white towel thing based on your experience and suggest what you think is an easier approach, especially if using speedlights that can't be hand metered accurately.

Canon flash is like my Mazda MX-5. I could have bought a rag top with a 5-speed manual transmission. I previously own a manual sports car and commuted on motorcycles for over 30 years so I knew the pros and cons of manual control. I opted to instead by an automatic with a power hard top. Not an automatic like my first car, a '68 Dodge Dart, but one with a 6 speed automatic with F1 style paddle shifters. I figured if not using a clutch worked for F1 it would work OK for me. A test drive of both manual and automatic versions confirmed that. I can up and down shift at will the same way as with a clutch, only faster because I now do it with my fingers without either hand leaving the wheel. Hard vs. rag top was for convenience and security - it goes up and down in 12 sec. and I don't worry about someone cutting the top to break into it.

After getting the car I waited about a month for an overcast day to photograph it because I knew from experience that the low contrast of the light would allow me to fit the entire range to sensor without flash and create the uniform highlights needed to render the 3D shape of shiny objects. I used the old trick of wetting down the pavement to create darker reflections on the side of the car. I didn't use any flash for the shot because again experience told me it wasn't the best tool for the job. Natural light and the patience to wait for just the right natural light was.

http://super.nova.org/TP/MX-5_01.jpg

How did I learn to drive? Not like most of my peers in high school. My junior/senior years in high school I worked for the school's driver ed program setting up the cones, gassing the cars, driving all over metro Chicago swapping the loaners at dealers. We had a dozen cars ranging from a stick shift VW bug, Dodge Challenger, Pontiac LeMans, and Buick Electra 225. My schedule got fixed so I had no afternoon classes so at noon I'd grab a car and take off. When the boss wasn't around I'd practice weaving through the cones as fast as I could without hitting them and did donuts and drifts in the snow. I once got the VW completely airborne over a railroad crossing. It was a ton of fun, taught me to drive quite well and paid for my diving and camera gear.



Jan 21, 2012 at 08:24 AM
dmacmillan
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p.4 #9 · Strobist


erichard wrote:
I have a question. I haven't kept up with this forum, but has anyone challenged the principle assumption of using a white towel each and every time? The lecture seems to rely heavily on this white towel, but in a huge percentage of scenes, there are no whites reflecting nearly as much light as that very white towel...So while your luminance curve may look great with the towel in the photo, it seems to me, it won't necessarily look so great if you take the towel out, at the same exposure (data will end prematurely before hitting the whitest whites).
...Show more

cgardner wrote:
The White Towel thing is consistently trolled and mocked but never challenged on it's technical merit or proven not to work.

It has it's genesis back when I was doing Zone System B&W. Adams, who was both craftsperson and artist always strived for a full range of detail in his photos similar to what might be seen as someone in person scanned and their pupils adjusted to highlight and shadow. Then once one managed the technical side so the photo fools the viewer's brain that a 2D reproduction is real you put something interesting in the photo.

If you're basing the white towel on the Zone System, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Zone System.

One of the tenets of the ZS is to measure the dynamic range of reflected light. You then make a determination of how this compares to the dynamic range possible on a print if you exposed a particular film stock (eg Super XX) normally and processed it normally. Sometimes the dynamic range of the scene is too great to fit and sometimes the dynamic range of the reflected light is only a couple of stops [zones] between the darkest and the lightest. If the dynamic range is too great we can compress the range with exposure and development techniques, including water bath and mixing up custom formulas (D-23). If the range is short, we can expand it, again using exposure and development methods.

Imagine a bank of ferns under soft, overcast light. The scene is mainly dark greens and medium dark greens. The exposure I would select, either shooting film or digital, would be very different from the exposure that would be indicated using an incident light reading. I would "expose to the right", especially in digital, then adjust accordingly in post processing (development or Photoshop). If I introduced a white towel as a reference and adjusted exposure to prevent clipping, I would shove the actual data the comprises the subject down to the left, not taking advantage of the full dynamic range of the sensor. By so doing, I'd probably lose some shadow detail.

The criticism of the white towel is not criticism of the technique, which may be useful in certain circumstances. The criticism is the relentless promotion of the technique as a cure-all, especially when there is some lack of understanding of how and when the technique can be used appropriately.

Edited on Jan 21, 2012 at 10:10 AM · View previous versions



Jan 21, 2012 at 09:56 AM
dmacmillan
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p.4 #10 · Strobist


Is the correct pronunciation "bucket" or "bouquet"?


Jan 21, 2012 at 09:57 AM
ukphotographer
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p.4 #11 · Strobist


alohadave wrote:
You saw one video where he used the word ethical. Please link to it.

Throwing up a wall of text every time you post is not teaching. It's lecturing, and it's the exact same lecture every single time. Never modified to take the specific post into account.



^^^^^^ What alohadave said. (Although I think it was an interview and may have been just audio.)



Edited on Jan 21, 2012 at 10:17 AM · View previous versions



Jan 21, 2012 at 10:13 AM
ukphotographer
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p.4 #12 · Strobist


erichard wrote:
hobbyist vs. Hobby-ist

I have a question. I haven't kept up with this forum, but has anyone challenged the principle assumption of using a white towel each and every time? The lecture seems to rely heavily on this white towel, but in a huge percentage of scenes, there are no whites reflecting nearly as much light as that very white towel. Even the "whites" of their eyes aren't truly Clorox white, yet they may be the brightest non-clipping highlight in a portrait. Sure, a true specular highlight in the eye from the flash itself may be whiter, but that is often
...Show more


Quite. It would cope with a wide ranging tonal subject, but might not be necessary.



Jan 21, 2012 at 10:17 AM
dmacmillan
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p.4 #13 · Strobist


alohadave wrote:
Throwing up a wall of text every time you post is not teaching. It's lecturing, and it's the exact same lecture every single time. Never modified to take the specific post into account.

That's because the specific post just serves as a launching pad for him to work on his never ending ego project.



Jan 21, 2012 at 10:25 AM
cgardner
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p.4 #14 · Strobist


Yeah, it's all part of my master plan to have white and black towels draped over my tombstone with the inscription "Here lies the White Towel Guy".

Doug will probably write a rebuttal to my obituary with some oblique reference to an old song or movie.




Jan 21, 2012 at 11:49 AM
ukphotographer
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p.4 #15 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
How to you gain that skill? Practice controlling the scene range with a target the one I use when setting my lights in the studio:

http://super.nova.org/TP/CardTargetHisto.jpg



You need to keep practicing.

Lets hope if any obituary uses a black and white towel, that you manage to light the colour and grey card correctly in between as those specular reflections will do nothing for any accuracy you might want to achieve. It doesn't just happen here - but lots of your setups contain it, its already been pointed out to you but the same error continually occurs and it's just plain wrong.

http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/CardTargetHisto2.jpg



Jan 21, 2012 at 12:08 PM
erichard
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p.4 #16 · Strobist


Although Mark Twain once advised, "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel", let me say, your technique is perfect if taking pictures of white and black towels ... together. We have no argument there. And on contrasty days, or in contrasty artificial lighting, you may simulate that white towel photography, but if you are taking the photo of a black cat on coal, as you say, I challenge you to throw in that white towel and get it right.

I think there is always room for interpretation when asking how much highlight do you want to preserve, but I think your bias with the white towel is to produce a flatter photo in non contrasty scenes. There's always a bit of compromise when shooting, and with your bias of shifting to the left, you preserve ALL highlights essentially at the cost of the shadows and noise is my guess. In the car photo, you have preserved nearly all the highlight, where many folks would have pushed further to the right for a bit more pop. What I notice in your histograms sans white towel (either cropped out or not there, as in the car) is that there is almost no data in the last portion of the graph. It's a tiny thread of data getting to 255. In that data you have preserved every inch of the mirror reflection in the headlights. It's a choice, but one I probably wouldn't do. And that would apply much more to the black cat on coal. There would simply be nothing it that photo that came anywhere near the brightness of the towel that would be worth preserving, at the cost of the shadows, where the heart of the photo lies.



Jan 21, 2012 at 12:31 PM
cgardner
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p.4 #17 · Strobist


The middle of the histogram no information need for the task I use the target for — fitting overall subject range to sensor. I circle and use arrows to show the parts of the overall target that are important for that.

One of the reasons I first started using a towel instead of a flat target to determine overall range is for the exact problem you point out. It is difficult to photograph a flat glossy target square to the camera without glare using centered fill. I also use towels because a 2D target will not show the balance of rim and frontal key light in the same way as you see it here on the 3D white towel. The towel solves both of those problems. What part of using a 3D target to evaluate and set lighting for 3D objects does not make sense to you? I could use a lot to things, but towels are cheap and have micro texture that makes over /under exposure obvious visually. A white card looks the same if over exposed by 1/6 stop or 6 stops.

I use the Kodak card to hang the towels and have an reference for checking or click correcting the middle tone neutrality and the MacBeth chart as a reference for adjusting color balance in PP in ACR without affecting the overall gray balance in the neutrals.

But you raise a valid point, the glare does cause potential confusion, even with someone as intelligent as you seem to be. Thanks for feedback. Based on it I'll modify the target removing the objects that have glare.



Jan 21, 2012 at 12:33 PM
RDKirk
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p.4 #18 · Strobist


but if you are taking the photo of a black cat on coal, as you say, I challenge you to throw in that white towel and get it right.

Actually, I do and I do.

I don't use a white towel, I use a sheet of textured white plastic cut to the size of my gray card and mounted in a folder with that card (opens like a book to reveal both in the same test image). But I also shoot mostly low key, including dark-skinned subjects in low key. I put the white card under my main light+fill (thus being a "highlighted, textured white--Zone 8) and expose to place the textured white card right at the top of the jpeg dynamic range. In other words, I give the card enough exposure to just show the texture--about a third stop below "blinking."

That actually gives me the very best exposure for a very dark-skinned subject in a a low-key environment. It may show that I need to fill the shadows more, but blowing the Zone 8 highlights to gain shadow detail is almost always pictorially uglier than getting the highlights right and losing the shadows.



Jan 21, 2012 at 12:59 PM
cgardner
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p.4 #19 · Strobist


erichard wrote:
I think there is always room for interpretation when asking how much highlight do you want to preserve, but I think your bias with the white towel is to produce a flatter photo in non contrasty scenes.

If you were to actually try it you would find that not to be the case.

What causes flat results in photos in "non contrasty" lighting such as overcast sky is the fact the scene range winds up being shorter than the sensor's. When exposure is adjusted for the accurate rendering of the highlights so much light reflects from dark objects before the shutter closes that they are rendered lighter than they actually are or appear to be by eye. The same thing will occur with artificial lighting if the shadows are overfilled.

That's actually a good thing in terms of signal/noise ratio. There is equal noise in all tones but the greater the signal the more it is masked. By analogy you only hear a ground loop hum on an amplifier in the silent passages. The same amount of hum is there in the loud ones but it is masked.

When you do encounter lighter than normal shadows / lower contrast due to flat light the solution in Post Processing is to move the left slider of Levels to darken the shadows to their "normal" value. On an overcast or foggy day that is pretty much a judgement call.

If you open a file in Levels in Photoshop and hold down the Alt/Opt key while moving the sliders the display changes to reveal in corresponding colors what if any channels are clipping...
http://super.nova.org/EDITS/Shadows.jpg

Above the file was under-filled at capture. There is no way to put detail in those areas in PP.

In the case of an overcast lit shot the histogram wouldn't be reaching the left edge, there would be a gap. By moving the shadow slider left while pressing Alt/Opt you can find the exact point where the darkest object in the scene will be rendered 0 black instead of gray.

Whether to make a black cat on an overcast day look very black, sorta black, or as grey as the camera sensor range record it is your call. But its one you can't make at capture unless you underexpose the file overall, which will then make the white cat gray.

If you experiment instead of just speculate you will see I am correct.



Jan 21, 2012 at 01:02 PM
erichard
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p.4 #20 · Strobist


RDKirk wrote:
Actually, I do and I do.

I don't use a white towel, I use a sheet of textured white plastic cut to the size of my gray card and mounted in a folder with that card (opens like a book to reveal both in the same test image). But I also shoot mostly low key, including dark-skinned subjects in low key. I put the white card under my main light+fill (thus being a "highlighted, textured white--Zone 8) and expose to place the textured white card right at the top of the jpeg dynamic range. In other words, I give the card
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I would say, given your low key approach maybe that's fine, but my question would be, if that zone 8 white is no where to be seen in the photo (ie. nothing as reflective as that white plastic), then why not expose to the right without the card till you do see *actual* subject clipping (just under), shoot, and then in post pull back your brightness (or up the exposure end point/pull data away from the right 255 end point) to get your desired low key, or accurate, or pleasing rendition of the dark skinned subject. The aim would be to shift fully right for *capture* primarily, to max out your camera's dynamic range, and to avoid as much noise in the shadows as possible. I believe this approach gives you the most data as is possible to work with, which should be the aim with the understanding that all will taken care of in post processing.

I understand what you are saying as far as your ultimate aim, however.


Edited on Jan 21, 2012 at 02:03 PM · View previous versions



Jan 21, 2012 at 01:17 PM
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