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Archive 2012 · Strobist

  
 
ukphotographer
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p.7 #1 · Strobist


Somehow, I knew you were going to reply - you don't like to leave a thread where your judgement is called into dispute - you'd much rather leave a wall of words in an attempt to plaster over the cracks.

Your perceptual and visual evaluation of images is just fraud. You include test targets in your images to make it appear as though you have a clue about what you're doing and you even contradict yourself as to the intention of using the cards - in this case you say to 'monitor tonal range'

The result from this.. your 'TTL Strobist' technique is appalling.

From this thread: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1076819
cgardner wrote:
A few years ago in the middle of a thread on how big a modifier is needed outdoors I grabbed the camera and flashes, went outside in the early evening on a summer day and dragged my wife out of the garden to take the shot below....

http://super.nova.org/TP/DualSunBacklight.jpg

It was shot in Av mode, -2 EC to get the sunlit skin on the shoulder and hair below clipping. I used no diffusers, just one 580ex on a bracket and the other 45° from the nose (90° from camera) above and to the right. Flash was in ETTL A:B mode. I don't recall
...Show more

Let me show you how the card is used and what 'monitoring tonal range' based on the card produces... yet another underexposed image. This with those tonal values in the correct place.

http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/CGCOMP2-700.jpg

You could say 'the gray card has a reflection right across it making it all rather useless and pointless' - but I'm sure you already know that.




Jan 25, 2012 at 12:49 PM
erichard
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p.7 #2 · Strobist


ukphotographer wrote:
From this thread: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1076819



Histogram for the above shot with the card in view:

http://gallery.me.com/ord4/101364/Screen-20shot-202012-01-25-20at-201-21-21-20PM/web.jpg

Histogram for the same shot with the card cropped out:

http://gallery.me.com/ord4/101364/Screen-20shot-202012-01-25-20at-201-25-06-20PM/web.jpg

Do I need a tome to explain the above?



Jan 25, 2012 at 01:35 PM
dmacmillan
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p.7 #3 · Strobist


Beni wrote:

This. The sad part is that there have been a number of truly talented professionals who just give up and go away. The community is the poorer for it because their advice won't be heard.



Jan 25, 2012 at 04:01 PM
erichard
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p.7 #4 · Strobist


Here's the shot with card cropped out and the adjusted curve (before and after):


http://super.nova.org/TP/DualSunBacklight.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/ord4/101364/DualSunBacklight-20copy/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/ord4/101364/Screen-20shot-202012-01-25-20at-204-21-16-20PM/web.jpg

I could get where I want to go with this shot, but having shifted the curve left on capture, it's necessary to bring it back right and up in post. This lowers the signal to noise ratio in the shadows particularly and most likely ends up with fewer perceptible tones in the full dynamic range of the corrected photo. I suppose a few are going to argue they want to preserve every pixel of highlight here, and maybe there's room for a little more preservation, but question is, what's the cost? The cost is the signal to noise ratio basically. To max out signal to noise, it really needs to be done at capture not in post.

At this size of a photo, I'll grant you it doesn't much matter which way you do it, but why not aim for better each and every time.



Jan 25, 2012 at 04:33 PM
cgardner
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p.7 #5 · Strobist


The context of that shot, as explained in the thread you linked, try to illustrate that if you use soft skylight effectively you don't need huge modifiers by showing what two direct flashes could produce with the type of shooting I typically do with speed lights. It not an attempt at an optimally rendered portrait session nor should it be judged as such.

Putting a subject's back to sun and using two flashes in front in an overlapping key over even fill configuration as in that shot is what I've found to be the most effective way to deal with the fact the scene range exceeds my camera sensor range by 2-3 stops. If you know a better one, please post examples.

As for how the lighting winds up on the face, that's a matter of flash ratio and FEC setting when using ETTL mode with two flashes. Had I chosen to I could have used a lower A:B ratio just as indoors. In retrospect I probably should have, but as I said the session literally took about 5 min, and 10 min later I posted them in the original thread.

My criteria for exposure for that shot was simply to keep the sunlit hair and patch on the shoulder on the right 1/3 stop below clipping in camera. and then exposed the front side for a "seen by eye" perceptual match. I did not alter the results out of camera in this test shot because I wanted it to show, without post processing, what the two direct flashes produced. So that isn't typical of my complete workflow, which is explained in my tutorials if you care to look.

Again understand that while I do not shoot to any numeric values other that keeping non-specular highlights below 255 clipping and shadows with detail I can see above 0. But if you were to measure the end point patches on the MacBeth card as I just did in the JPG you will find they read 231-233 in white and 44-47 in black. That is slightly under the target values of 243 and 52 respectively for that MacBeth chart (per the accompanying documentation) but on that camera sensor range 40 units = 1 f/stop so that's less that 1/3 stop from optimal.

Stop and consider that if the flash in front was raised to the point it was an exact match to the sunny backlight there would appear to be any backlight so a slightly underexposed appearance is normal. The more background context is seen the more normal the slightly darker face seems, it is after all a face in the shade of the sun, not a face in sunlight as your edit renders it. That what I mean when I say "perceptual" balance.

When you look at a face in direct sun vs. one in shade do they look identical? Not when I look at them. I perceive the sunny side with detail, and the shaded side of the same arm a slightly darker tone of the same skin. There is a only rule of thumb/conventional wisdom that "fill flash" should be about 1-stop below sun in a backlit situation like that. I don't say that, but others do. What is "1-stop" darker is the highlights on the "shaded" side, vs the sunny back side to make the flash shot look similar to how your eye will adapt in person.

As for what you did with that similar to what I illustrated earlier in the shot of the guy holding the towel with the middle slider in Levels moved left from 1.0 to 1.2 to lighten the mid-tones without affecting the end points.

Out of camera - exposure based on not clipping non-specular highlights...

http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGary.jpg
Levels tweek...
http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGaryLighter.jpg

I did exactly the same thing routinely almost 40 years ago when making halftones. If you make a halftone look exactly like the photo at the proof stage it will wind up too dark in the magazine due to dot gain on press. So to make print and magazine match we had to make the halftone lighter than normal.

In the example you posted the highlights are clipping, what I try to avoid. You will see this if you hold down the Alt key and click on the highlight slider in levels — there is clipping in the red channel in your edit.

My typical post processing workflow is covered in tutorials on my site if you care to look. I prefer selective vs global slider adjustment. I have an action which creates screen, multiply and soft light adjustment layers. Screen and Multiply have the same net effect in CS5 as dodge and burn. Soft light, when applied, allows select tweeking of contrast, around eyes and mouth for example.

To be fair here critics, I can't recall every seeing any of any of your photographs, so please point me to a collection of your photos since 2005 and let me pick one out of context to criticize with the same level of scrutiny you are here.

Also consider this. The reason the highlights wind up a bit underexposed when exposure based on the towel clipping is that the towel isn't reflecting 100% of the light and the camera adjusts in 1/3 stop increments. So when you raise exposure until the highlights clip, then back off one click (1/3 stop) a .05 density white patch (90% reflectance) winds up in the file around 245. If the camera was able to be adjusted in 1/10th stops then it might be possible to hit exact eye dropper targets. But the controls on the camera and the histogram just don't allow that precision AT CAPTURE.

Where you can control the values with precision is in PP where you have the eye dropper tool to measure and can more accurately judge clipping with the Alt+Click Levels trick and others. The "White Towel" method is not cutting the logs into 8' lengths when you chop down the tree. If you do that out in the field your 2 x 4s will wind up short (clipping) on both ends. That's the bigger picture of that simple exercise you may be missing.



Edited on Jan 26, 2012 at 08:31 AM · View previous versions



Jan 25, 2012 at 07:00 PM
Mike Mahoney
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p.7 #6 · Strobist


kenyee wrote:
Actually, the original strobist technique was *NOT* to use p/i/e-TTL (i.e., not use the PW TT nor the RP PX). It was the simple technique of full manual control of your flashes and learning to modify them and control where light went.
Nowadays, the strobist forum seems more like a gear junkie site unfortunately...(some of the old-timers have said the same thing, so it's not just me)...


Agree on both points .. the earlier Strobist blog was big on placing simple yet effective lighting techniques & concepts in everyday situations and pulling out awesome results. Couple of triggered SB24's, a big imagination, a histogram and you were good to go But I don't go there much anymore since it started to get so gear centric.

One mans perfect exposure is another mans totally boring flat lit piece of artless crap.



Jan 25, 2012 at 10:58 PM
Mike Tuomey
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p.7 #7 · Strobist


What Mike Mahoney said. Used to visit the Strobist site regularly, have not done so in a long time. Still using simple flashes as effectively as I can whenever I can. I do refer to Light, Science, and Magic, of course.


Jan 26, 2012 at 06:34 AM
dmacmillan
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p.7 #8 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
To be fair here critics, I can't recall every seen any of any of your photographs, so please point me to a collection of your photos since 2005 and let me pick one out of context to criticize with the same level of scrutiny you are here.

Whoa now.

You frequently take the photos of others at FM, "analyze" and manipulate them to show how they can be "corrected" or "improved". You've even added plastic Godzillas to landscapes you found "boring" or mocked someone's composition by superimposing the Batman logo.

Now you're upset because others have taken one of your photos and done the exact same analysis and manipulation you often do to others.

Your post makes your intentions clear, it's not illumination, rather it's retribution.



Jan 26, 2012 at 08:52 AM
cgardner
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p.7 #9 · Strobist


Mike Mahoney wrote:
Agree on both points .. the earlier Strobist blog was big on placing simple yet effective lighting techniques & concepts in everyday situations and pulling out awesome results. Couple of triggered SB24's, a big imagination, a histogram and you were good to go But I don't go there much anymore since it started to get so gear centric.

One mans perfect exposure is another mans totally boring flat lit piece of artless crap.


What you are seeing in 2012 in retrospect I saw a different way in 2005 when Hobby was telling people his manual method was the only "ethical" way.

By way of analogy manual flash is like a double-bit axe — blade on both sides. That type of axe is an excellent tool for felling trees. But you can't use it for splitting the logs into rail fences. For that job you'd want wedges and a sledge hammer. A system flash is like a single-bit axe — blade on one side, hammer face on the back. One side for felling the tree, the other for pounding the wedge to split the log.

It wasn't that Hobby's technique were bad, simply that his equipment suggestions, if followed back then by someone starting out, would limit not what they shot, but how the could shoot it.

Static lighting set-ups with stands and metering, vs. shooting on the fly putting the off-camera light any distance and letting the camera sort out the rest in TTL mode.

It wasn't manual flash that painted him and any one to followed in to the corner of how they could shoot it was the radio triggers available at the time. That and an apparent aversion for putting any flash near the camera. If you don't have a speed light connected to the hot shoe a PC cord or radio trigger is the only way to trigger it.

By the time the Stobist arrived on the scene I'd been Vivitars with Wien optically triggered optical triggered slaves two ways. For on the go shooting I put my "fill" Vivitar on my bracket with a 18" PC cord to trigger it with the Wien sensor firing the slave. When I was doing static set-ups and wanted all my lights on stands with umbrellas I used the same approach, triggering the slaves optically. I simply made the cord longer. I bought a 15' Vivitar - PC cord from Paramount cords. These are from back before I ever heard of "The Strobist Movement"....

http://super.nova.org/TP/VivitarPotsSetup.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/Flower1_setup.jpg

That approach wasn't any different that Hobby's except I didn't have an aversion to keeping my fill light on axis, and wasn't inconvenienced by the cord because I rarely shot were I couldn't keep at least one light within 10-15' of the camera. Being a "hobbyist" not a "pro" meant that I shot differently. Radio triggers weren't a necessity for me, nor are they necessary to use the "Stobist" approach for placing the lights if you can live with the inconvenience of the cord.

But if in 2003 if one based there equipment choices on two chiseled in stone commandments: "Thou must cut the cord to your flash" and "Thou shalt not place a light on the camera" the only equipment choice that met that requirement was a PW Plus radio trigger or a Chinese knock off that usually fell apart or failed soon after purchase. The decision to go with radio has a domino effect on logistics.

If for example you had never used a flash bracket (as Hobby apparently had not until about 2009 by his own account) all your lights would wind up on stands. If you only use one light that is manageable in run-and-gun situations, but you may wind up with dark shadows do to lack of fill when you can't bounce the single light. Where approaches take different paths logistically is when two lights are used. When one of them is used on a bracket the "fill" in the two light scenario travels with the camera and is always optimally placed for minimal unfilled shadows and there is still only one light stand to wrangle . But if you believe placing fill opposite key is the more effective strategy the same two light solution requires wrangling two stands, not one.

The reason started advocating the bracket fill approach as far back as the 1970s to other photographers was its logistical simplicity. The notion that approach is "unprofessional" is preposterous because it was the approach popularized by a top professional and copied by nearly every wedding shooter at the time. It hadn't fallen out of favor because it didn't work, but because photographers thought it was inconvenient compared to other options like bounced flash and because in the digital era higher and higher ISO speeds made it appear that natural light, perhaps with the addition of a bit of fill flash on occasion was all that is needed.

We all have our stylistic preferences but if working professionally the needs of the customer an the situation often trump them. Hobbyists have more options and only need to please themselves. For example Doug MacMillian — one of my most vocal and least civil critics for the past ten years —for example knows how to use flash, and by his own account used the bracket fill technique with an optically triggered slave on a pole back in the 70s and 80s when he was a pro because it was the best tool for the job then just as I did when worked for the pro that made that approach the conventional wisdom of the that era for shooting events like wedding receptions. But today as a hobbyist like me, using his Canon digital that can shoot at ISO 3200 when needed he prefers not to use flash. If he didn't have a camera with ISO 3200 (or whatever his max is) he might have to grit his teeth and use flash indoor like in old days.

Like Doug I love and use natural light. Outdoor in natural light I never use flash without first posing the subject or finding the camera position where the natural light is modeling the face or object. Then if the technical limits of the camera demand it I add fill and key flash from the same angles and the natural light is modeling the face (key) and rendering shadow tones (fill) I'm seeing with my eyes. My camera can't see by like my eyes to. I used flash to make my photographs look as close as possible to what my eyes see, not what the camera is able to capture with the natural light alone. Doug and I, both on par with knowledge of technique would handle the same outdoor scene differently and get different looking results in most cases if he opts not to use flash. His preference for natural might not work if he was still shooting professionally, but it works OK for him because he, as he says, only has to please himself.

Indoors in candid situations were many others would simply crank up ISO and use the "natural" light I continue to use flash more or less in the same way I shot weddings professionally in the 70s. Not because I don't know how to raise ISO and expose correctly with the room lighting, but because it really isn't "natural" light, nor does it come from a "natural" direction at times. Most indoor spaces the ambient light is either creating dark eye sockets if lit with tungsten sources, or uniformly diffuse and shadowless if lit with fluorescent ...

http://super.nova.org/TP/State02.jpg

In a situation like that I will take a wide shot like that with the ambient, but use flash to overpower it entirely in close shots of the people with my off camera light placed and my camera position selected based on not just capturing them randomly, but at the most flattering combination of lighting and camera angle I know how to produce. How do I know how to do that on the fly in any situation? Because I apprenticed with and shot wedding receptions professionally for two year when I was 20 with the expert mentoring of Monte Zucker, the original "Stobist" who popularized the bracket / slave optical approach in the 70s. He didn't invent it, he just took the conventional wisdom of the day for using fill and key in the studio and made it portable and logistically simple.

Zucker's approach could have been done with two assistants with lights on poles instead of the one Doug used when shooting weddings. But just as few copied the "Doug" approach we would have not have heard of Monte either. The reason there was a "Zucker" approach was because he found a simpler way, logistically, to use the same tools. He recognized, from his studio training in the 60's with Zeltsman that there were both technical and aesthetic advantages to using centered fill on a bracket. He made it even simpler by looking at the problem of needing the pay an assistant to shlep a light around and wind up pointing it incorrectly half the time intuitively and came up with a brilliant solution: put the stand on wheels.

If one builds their equipment strategy based on the commandment "Thou shalt keep thy fill centered and shadowless as possible" one winds up with a different equipment strategy that Hobby with the opposite belief did. WIth a bracket holding the fill only one stand is needed for a two light solution and since there is a flash attached to the camera anyway using it to trigger the off camera flash optically with a $20 trigger is the most economical solution.

But with the benefit of hindsight I see that what probably elevated Zucker to the status of being recognized as having a unique approach with "speedlights" back in the 70's wasn't just the lighting they produced but the simplicity of the logistics. What made Zucker famous wasn't an off camera light on a pole, or two on the floor, but the fact a modified wheeled medical IV stand allowed a single-handed photographer to cover a reception with LOGISTICAL SIMPLICITY.

Most IV stands are designed with 4-5 legs and a heavy metal base so they can be used in a cluttered hospital room or wheeled safety down a crowed hallway by an walking patient with one hand. Not unlike the conditions one might encounter at a wedding reception for example. The funny thing was (at least for me) is that either I didn't realize it was an IV stand. I thought it was a lighting stand and looked in shops and on-line in vain for something similar. Then one day in 2003 I walked into the local thrift store and saw this:

http://super.nova.org/TP/IVStand.jpg

Unlike the old fashioned stands with heavy base and four legs it is designed cheap and light out of aluminum with five legs to make it more stable. It is designed to be thrown out after use, eliminating the need to autoclave and make it sterile for the next patient. It was one of those "slap forehead — so that's what it was!" moments. It was the best $5 investment I've ever made in terms of logistics.

This thread went off on a tangent about towels because of "in your face challenges" but that's not what my "approach" was about back in 2002 when I started providing lighting advice over on DPR. I was just trying to get people to consider and try the bracket / centered fill concept and the rolling stand that makes it logistically possible.

I didn't start advocating Canon flash until 2005 when I bought it. Even then I didn't advocate that it only be used in ETTL mode but exactly the opposite warning them to avoid the ETTL only ST-E2 and 420ex so they could use M mode, with I showed them by examples was better for things like portraits.

Centered fill has a domino effect on modifier choice. If shadows are lifted with fill big key light modifiers are not as critical. The domino effect is that smaller modifiers make the bracket/ rolling stand approach an effective solution for a pro shooting a wedding reception, or a hobbyist chasing rug rats around the house.

The advantage of combining the bracket / rolling stand with Canon flash? My approach, the flattering extent I'm seen to have one, isn't about the towels, it's always been and still is about shooting with maximum flexibility and minimum logistical problems.

I'm still waiting for Hobby to "discover" the rolling stand idea



Jan 26, 2012 at 11:13 AM
alohadave
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p.7 #10 · Strobist


Why don't you tell him then? His twitter is @strobist. I'm sure that he'd love to hear your ideas about why he is wrong and you are right.


Jan 26, 2012 at 12:14 PM
cgardner
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p.7 #11 · Strobist


alohadave wrote:
Why don't you tell him then? His twitter is @strobist. I'm sure that he'd love to hear your ideas about why he is wrong and you are right.


No need. Since 2005 — when I had both a set of studio lights and speedlights I advocated using M and TTL and near axis fill only as a location solution— David Hobby has used more tools, expanded his horizons and changed his opinions. His approaches and advice today have become quite similar to what I suggested 7 years ago. So I don't have any criticism of how he does things now, because we now do pretty much the same thing. But being a hobbyist, not a pro, I find I can do it without radio triggers and more expensive "pro" studio gear — I've used AB800s since 2004. My only criticism in this thread was that he wasn't open minded enough to try all the same things he uses and advocates now 7 years ago. I'll leave the discovery of the logistical advantages of the wheeled light stand idea for him to discover in his own time. I didn't originate it and I wouldn't want to spoil the joy of the surprise.

The guy who started this thread is an old school guy who has, like me, seen what is conventional wisdom for location lighting for things like wedding receptions come full circle from brackets, bounce, natural light and now back to flash and for those who understand the advantages the bracket and single light approach of the 70s.

What's changed the conventional wisdom of what more effective has been the availability of new tools like smaller flash units that could be bounced like the Vivitar 283/285HV, TTL metering of flash and digital with its instant feed back about exposure via histogram and clipping warning. The smart old dogs learn all the new tricks but don't jump through hoops because it's trendy. The smart old dogs take the best of the old and combine it with the best of the new and wind up with an approach that is better than the old one, logistically simpler with much better results in many respects. Like what you get if you put a Canon flash on a bracket and use it with a rolling stand for candids and do serious portraits with a set of studio lights.

But then you need to be an old dog to see that, and both a pro and hobbyist to understand that both don't always need to use the same tools the same way. Now when a real pro like William shows up at a wedding there's a good chance there is someone with a newer more expensive camera and flash gear, but odds are quite low they know how to use it as well....

Plus being an old dog I don't use Twitter. No need since I've had my own web sites since 1994 where people can find me if they want to — just click the WWW button below or Google "Chuck's White Towel".




Jan 26, 2012 at 01:12 PM
ukphotographer
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p.7 #12 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
Plus being an old dog I don't use Twitter.


You'd better be careful, David @strobist (61,702 followers) will be calling you a Luddite if he knew who you were.



Jan 26, 2012 at 02:42 PM
kenyee
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p.7 #13 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
Static lighting set-ups with stands and metering, vs. shooting on the fly putting the off-camera light any distance and letting the camera sort out the rest in TTL mode.


To be fair, IMHO "strobist" was more about emulating studio lighting w/ speedlights and light gear. It was *not* about event (aka high paced action/wedding photography). In that case, the best bet is to do your approach of using a few static speedlights on stands to bring up ambient and use TTL for fill. I've done this a few times too...I did recognize that the strobist stuff had its place and TTL or Auto-thyristor mode had its own.
Hobby was a photojournalist doing effectively studio assignments when doing portraits of people, but had to travel light to do it. That's why the emphasis on manual. Doesn't mean it's best for everything, but understand his origins made it obvious what he was doing...



Jan 26, 2012 at 03:40 PM
alohadave
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p.7 #14 · Strobist


ukphotographer wrote:
You'd better be careful, David @strobist (61,702 followers) will be calling you a Luddite if he knew who you were.


No. He wouldn't give Chuck a second thought.



Jan 27, 2012 at 12:01 AM
cgardner
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p.7 #15 · Strobist


kenyee wrote:
To be fair, IMHO "strobist" was more about emulating studio lighting w/ speedlights and light gear. It was *not* about event (aka high paced action/wedding photography). In that case, the best bet is to do your approach of using a few static speedlights on stands to bring up ambient and use TTL for fill. I've done this a few times too...I did recognize that the strobist stuff had its place and TTL or Auto-thyristor mode had its own.


I don't disagree with anything you say, but it highlights why I offered different advice and an alternate approach to beginners. If you are a parent with a couple active kids running around the house you want to document growing up a static lighting scenario isn't the best choice; not because it won't produce great lighting but because it just isn't logistically feasible.

People knowing I'm a photographer are always asking me what type of camera to buy on a limited budget. My advice has changed over the years as camera and computers have changed. To someone expecting their first kid I suggest they buy a good HD video camera and a P&S that will fit in the diaper bag. Video editing tools like iMovie are so simple now they can pull together a video that will be fun to watch on TV years later when the kids are grown. Where will the still shots be then?

For those wanting to use and master still lighting gear have suggested consistently since starting giving advice: 1) start first with a north facing window learning the basic short lighting pattern on full, oblique, and profile views; 2) learn to use the butterfly pattern using single flash on a bracket, direct, bounced, diffused; 3) add a second system flash; 4) if you at that point you find you need radio triggers by them.

My advice has differed from the advice others offered overt the years, often advice offered in opposition to mine without examples they had take showing why their's was better. I point out the cause and effect differences of why I think my approach works, and the logistical reasons works for me and examples to back it up so the people can see whether or not it will work from them within their budget to meet their goals.

I just Googled and found a USA Today interview with Hobby on uTube where he said everything I said above 7 years ago, including trying system flash first without radio triggers and only buying them if finding the need. We came to similar conclusions on different time lines. The difference is that people following my advice in 2005 don't need to replace their gear to be current with what Hobby now recommends.

All lighting choices are constrained by budget and logistics. I didn't shoot photos for a living after 1974. I got a better paying job with better benefits and made enough money to buy anything I want; I just don't by more than I need and I find the easiest way to use it for what I need done.

Don't think centered fill is effective? Start with fill centered in a lighting pattern then take comparison shot as you move it around to the side and it points at the ear. Post them and we can discuss the cause and effect of what you think works best.

Think the white towel thing is ridiculous? Have you every tried it in a situation where you can't judge exposure just the histogram of the scene? Here's a challenge. Go out and shoot a dozen scenes at random, with and without flash in flat, cross and back lighting how every you do them now to judge exposure. Then with the camera in M mode try setting the exposure using the towels, clipping warning and histogram. Post the photos Post them and we can discuss the cause and effect of what you think works best.

Think you can learn anything from me? No problem, go find another teacher there are plenty of them around..

Does what I do and how I do it bug to the point you feel you need to warn others about me and my false doctrine? That's more your problem than mine my friend. I just try to help folks here and last time I checked that was allowed under the First Amendment where I live. I trust that the people asking the questions, if they look at all the examples and advice offered on various approaches will be able to sort out what will work for them.

Fred, the genius that he is, has conveniently provided buttons at the bottom of the screen to allow anyone to:

[WWW] Learn more about my approach.
[ADD TO LIST] Be my Buddy
[Hide Me] Never need to see me again.



Edited on Jan 28, 2012 at 11:09 AM · View previous versions



Jan 27, 2012 at 02:29 PM
williamkazak
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p.7 #16 · Strobist


Don't fret too much, guys. There are some real egotists and bad boys on the wedding forums.
I have been shooting photos since first grade and weddings since college. BA in Photography/Art. MA candidate. I was interested in the term; "Strobist" because I like keeping it simple. I thought I might learn how to do things a bit differently. A complete understanding of the current photo process concerning portable lighting is probably what I was seeking. I like to make things become simple; efficient use of minimal tools, repeatable results, quality on the run. The elimination of chaos is a good idea. I was shooting a white towel at an art gallery last night and when I was processing the RAW file in Lightroom2. I got no sign that the highlights were clipping, no blinking lights, in my Nikon D300. In Lightroom, I got blinking lights, an indication to me that some dialing down of highlights was suggested. I did not check the histogram as I was shooting.
At weddings, I still use a flash bracket because I know it works for me. The Stofen type cap on the SB800 keeps the glare down and I can bounce to a ceiling if I have a suitable one with a special cutout that I made in one of them while still keeping fill directed at the subject. I just figured out how to mount a PW+2 on a Stroboframe 350 bracket. I can now trigger a couple of extra lights on stands for dancing pics or the room using the PW's and I still get fill into the dancer's faces. I have been going through my entire "kit" and I like my White Lightning for studio light with an umbrella. I can use a Reflectasol bounce flat on a stand for fill as I move the key light. Also, I have recently played with a shoot thru umbrella as fill. Butterfly lighting is what I learned years ago working in a photo studio and admiring Avedon and Scuvullo. I am not happy with Nikon TTL on my D300 bodies and I prefer manual or A on my SB800 as I can dial it up or down for tweaks if necessary. TTL talks to the camera, changes settings and I don't know how to tweak it to stay tweaked. There have been discussions on the Nikon TTL on FM but I don't trust TTL coming from the Vivitar 283/285 Auto backround where most of us used the A settings and teeaked our manual camera apertures for distance and amount of flash we desired on the subjects including group shots.
I know there are grumblings going on here all the time at FM. This thread is no different. What I have picked up so far here is that I can actually check what I am doing with a white and black towel if I am so inclined to do so. It seems that setting up for the key and fill in the studio would be a nice approach. Outdoors, of course it is also possible for me but I am usually on the run outdoors. In both conditions, it is still a visual interpretation that I would seek and not exact eye dropper numbers.



Jan 27, 2012 at 09:42 PM
cgardner
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p.7 #17 · Strobist


williamkazak wrote:
I am not happy with Nikon TTL on my D300 bodies and I prefer manual or A on my SB800 as I can dial it up or down for tweaks if necessary. TTL talks to the camera, changes settings and I don't know how to tweak it to stay tweaked.


It doesn't and never will. That is something you need to either learn to deal with when shooting on the fly or not use it.

Remember with color neg you could over exposed and it was OK but you didn't want to ever underexpose and loose the shadows detail. What did we do? Err on the side of overexposure and not ever lose the shadows.

With digital its the opposite. You MUST underexpose the RAW files by at least 1/3 stop or by the time you make your 8-Bit JPGs the red channel in the skin will be clipping. That's what the Alt+click check in Levels is my most important diagnostic tool and way I ERR ON THE SIDE OF UNDEREXPOSURE AT CAPTURE.

Not a lot, just enough so that when I make a JPG and check it I find no clipping. How much you need to err in the side of underexposure per your camera clipping warning will vary from mine. Just shoot a bracket test of a scene above and below the point white highlights are clipping, run them through your entire workflow ) JPG and Prints, and find best JPG and print frames in the camera — then look at the clipping warning and histogram for those frames.

What you will be doing is training your brain to recognize how the clipping warning should look to get perfect full range JPGs and print. It might be at clipping in the camera, 1/3 stop above, or 1/3 below.

Whatever it is subtract 1/3 stop and shoot at that. So if you find you need to set exposure 1/3 stop below camera warning in the test, always shot a 2/3 below. Some files may wind up 1/3 stop under, in fact some might be more — BUT FROM THAT POINT YOU WILL NEVER BLOW A HIGHLIGHT UNLESS YOU WANT TO. Why? Because you will be erring to the side of underexposure.

1/3 - 2/3 stops underexposure is no problem in a RAW file. It can be corrected with a minor tweek of the slider. But if overexposed in RAW there is no slider for restoring the lost detail.

Will you lose 1/3 - 2/3 stop DR in the shadows? Yes, but unless you use dual flash set ratios perfectly you usually lose detail anyway.

When you do use flash what you do is:

1) Err on the side of underexposure as insurance for not blowing highlights.
2) Err on the side of using too much fill in the shadow to prevent loss there.
3) Tweek both ends and the middle with Levels in CS5 for Lightroom for a perfect looking full range JPG or Print

Don't cut the log to 8' if you want an 8' 2x4 to come out of the end of the lumber mill. You need to allow for the finishing process when you capture the file.

The towel thing is just an easy way to visually confirm just by how the towels look:

1) Highlights 1/3 stop under clipping — Check
2) Shadow showing detail in folds of the towel — Check
3) Full range + allowance for PP changes recorded? — Check

You don't need the towels at all once you understand what to look for in the scene: anything not specular below clipping, detail seen in shadows. Do that at capture and the rest can be taken care of in PP as part of the routine workflow.

I keep my highlights a bit underexpose and shadows a bit to light UNTIL I make the copies of the file for the net or printing. Then the last step after sharpening is open the file in Levels, check and tweek the ends and the middle so there is no clipping on the JPG. You can't get there without underexposing and overfilling the RAW a bit.

The RAW file is more like a negative you expect to dodge and burn when enlarging, not a transparency you need to have perfect out of camera. That is more the case if shooting JPG in camera, but even then you need to allow for changes due to resizing and USM.

This is something I understand because I worked reproducing photos not taking them for a living.

As for TTL try setting ratio to 1:1 (key and fill equal) and leave it there. Go around the house and shoot. Take a test shot, adjust below clipping per the warning. The 1:1 ratio will probably over fill the shadows.

Open the files I RAW change nothing and open in CS5 or Lightroom, tweek them with Levels on the ends using the Alt+click on the sliders to the point they are just below clipping. Move the middle slider until the contrast looks the way you want it.

Then you''ll understand my workflow and why underexposure and overfilling with digital and flash is the new paradigm that replaces "Expose for shadows / Develop for highlights".

The new paradigm to fit scene to sensor (at least in flash lit foreground is)

Expose 1/3 stop under clipping in highlights at capture
Over fill the shadows +1/3 stop at capture
Adjust tonal range as needed in Photoshop as the final step in your JPG and Printing workflows.

As with the JPG you will need to experiment to find how best to adjust for printing. Printing will usually make the mid tones darker than they appear on screen. So for a JPG file where the middle slider is a the default 1.0 you might need to adjust it to 1.2...
http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGaryLighter.jpg
In order to have the print come out like this...
http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGaryBlackMat.jpg

Again focus on the getting the length of the 2x4 right, not cutting down the tree. All you need to do with TTL ration is watch the clipping warning with every shot. If you see clipping cut flash 13 stop and make it go away. If you don't see it raise exposure until you do, then back off 1/3 stop.

Chuck



Jan 28, 2012 at 11:59 AM
kenyee
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p.7 #18 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
All lighting choices are constrained by budget and logistics


That single statement is probably the best summary of the topic. "It depends". Learning when to choose something is what people should be learning as well as how to light in each condition...

I think the rest of what you wrote in that was probably in reply to someone else



Jan 28, 2012 at 12:42 PM
ukphotographer
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p.7 #19 · Strobist


cgardner wrote:
[Hide Me] Never need to see me again.



Yep, that works...

http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/hidden.jpg

If I ever see or have to endure any more 'canned' images or regurgitated CV's with convoluted technical explainations of why the calibration world has it all wrong because of an inability to control lighting it will be once more too many..



Jan 28, 2012 at 01:11 PM
williamkazak
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p.7 #20 · Strobist


No one has ever forced anyone to read anything on FM.

Edited on Jan 30, 2012 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions



Jan 28, 2012 at 03:27 PM
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