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Archive 2011 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan

  
 
snowboarder
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p.4 #1 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


edwardkaraa wrote:
Philippe, I am sure many members share your thoughts, and those who don't will soon follow. The future is mirrorless, and DSLR will die sooner or later.

Your photos are very nice, and I doubt you would have done better with the 5d



+100



Nov 14, 2011 at 08:04 PM
philip_pj
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p.4 #2 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


This thread is quite revealing in the diversity of criteria we have, and how that leads to camera choices.

My issues with NEX (many may be simply a lack of knowledge on my part) realtive to DSLR thus far are: the corner colour shift and smearing, tripod usage with moderate lens weight (is the mount strong enough?), lack of suitable and decent priced high quality alt lenses, poor ergonomics, lack of equivalents for key lenses (echoing Jae re the 21mm, and this applies to all APS-C cameras to be fair), the need for fiddly and sometimes troublesome adapters (like for the Contax G), loss of IQ due to handholding, the appearance of a 'spare parts' camera with bolt-on parts, lack of robust body build, lack of IBIS - that's enough to give me pause. So those are the opposite of the pull factors many have listed here...

For example, I would have serious concerns working a site with the (expensive) EVF sticking off the top of the camera as shown in Douglas 'pimped' NEX5N - it looks nifty but awfully fragile for hard field use. And how secure would a mid-sized 500 gram lens be on the body mounted on a tripod? Less than a DSLR, you would think, that bottom plate cannot stand too much.

The NEX cameras do appeal for a host of reasons, and IQ is often great, but I guess I am pretty happy with a 24Mp DSLR with Zeiss/Leica optics from 21mm to 300mm FLs (most weigh 300-550 grams), and the weight is something I am very used to carrying, it's a bit over 3 kgs in a normal daypack.

I could not live with a 5% keeper rate, philippe, throwing away 95% would break my heart! I shoot much less probably and aim for, and get 20% or more. Thanks for posting, nice images!



Nov 14, 2011 at 08:07 PM
briantho
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p.4 #3 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philip_pj wrote:
...lack of suitable and decent priced high quality alt lenses

...the need for fiddly and sometimes troublesome adapters (like for the Contax G)


Huh? Which decent priced hq alts can't be used on NEX?

And I suppose the Contax G adapter for your camera isn't troublesome? BTW which adapter would that be?



Nov 14, 2011 at 08:25 PM
Ulff
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p.4 #4 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I think your decision problem astonishingly easy to solve:

You travel a lot, are comfortable with manual focus, like Zeiss lenses and prefer stopping down the aperture even if you use f1.4 lenses.

For traveling the 5N wins, for manual focus it wins IMO, Zeiss and Leica lenses are available and you don't give up much with the Sony if you don't use especially shallow DOFs. Capturing static scenes in low light can be compensated with a little tripod. IQ and rendering style should be very comparable to the 5D in the end.

So if you agree to the above premises about your photographic preferences, you can easily switch to the 5N IMO. And the money from your 5D and lenses could be invested in Leica M lenses...



Nov 14, 2011 at 08:40 PM
douglasf13
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p.4 #5 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philip_pj wrote:
This thread is quite revealing in the diversity of criteria we have, and how that leads to camera choices.

My issues with NEX (many may be simply a lack of knowledge on my part) realtive to DSLR thus far are: the corner colour shift and smearing, tripod usage with moderate lens weight (is the mount strong enough?), lack of suitable and decent priced high quality alt lenses, poor ergonomics, lack of equivalents for key lenses (echoing Jae re the 21mm, and this applies to all APS-C cameras to be fair), the need for fiddly and sometimes troublesome adapters (like for
...Show more


The CV 15 is a very good 22mm equivalent on the 5N, and that isn't a focal length where I need much speed, anyways. The new Zeiss 24/1.8 will get you a fast-ish, 35mm equiv. prime, and you can use rangefinder lenses for the rest, through around 100mm. After that, you can still just adapt SLR lenses for the longer focal lengths.

Most SLR lens to NEX adapters are available with a tripod foot, so you don't have to worry about a lens ripping the mount off of a NEX body while tripod mounted. I find the ergonomics and build of the NEX-5N fine, especially with the extra grip and protection of a leather half case. Once your programmable buttons are set, usability is very good.

As for hand holding IQ, I am able to handhold the 5N at slower shutter speeds than a DSLR (not including IS,) because there is no mirror slap and the new electronic first curtain minimizes much of the movement, although I agree that built-in IS would make it even better.

I'm not too worried about the 5N EVF breaking off. It's possible it could happen, and the NEX-7 will erase this potential problem, but I like the fact that the 5N EVF tilts, so it's worth the risk to me. The 5N still fits in my small Artisan & Artist bag with the EVF attached, so it works well for me.

To me, the NEX is all about size, and the difference between my A900 bag and NEX-5N bag with somewhat equivalent lenses is striking.



Nov 14, 2011 at 08:51 PM
magiclight
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p.4 #6 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I like the hats Philippe! Nice shot.

I tested the 5N and somehow from a handling point of view it could never be my main camera.

I also have 4 ZE lenses and if I left my 1DS3 they would have to come too. So that kind of limits my options.


But in the end it's what makes sense to you. I could see you with an M9 and a couple of luxs Who knows santa might be kind this year!




Nov 14, 2011 at 09:26 PM
partitura
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p.4 #7 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Philipe - I've been facing these same decisions, and come to similar conclusions. I can't afford to support two platforms, so I've chosen to go with NEX. Thank you for your wonderful photography and commentary on this forum - I've learned a lot by reading your posts. I hope we get to see more images from Japan.

I am a very big fan of the tiltable EVF on my 5N. I have bad arthritis in my neck, and this little thing makes it possible for me to take shots that I could not with my SLR. Having used the EVF for a couple of weeks, it doesn't seem fragile at all, and I find myself using it most of the time, and the LCD only rarely.



Nov 14, 2011 at 09:31 PM
philip_pj
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p.4 #8 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


thanks, Douglas, for that helpful information. I hope to get there about the same time Sony gets the corners fixed ...maybe the future 5N class NEXs will share the NEX7 body, which seems to be a logical development. I do feel the NEX works best for users who want a more normal lens range, say 24-60mm, to get from 35mm to about 90mm on FF.

"Which decent priced hq alts can't be used on NEX?"

What I mean is that small M class lenses, and the RF Zeiss lenses, which are mostly pretty expensive but most appealing with low distortion, even better performance - these are what I would want to use, rather than legacy SLR lenses. The Contax G lenses are the kind of thing I had in mind. These are AF lenses and users report problems with the focus mech in some adapters...not smooth but 'catchy'.

But if one sells off the heavy DSLR gear, the pricey M class lenses make more sense - a replacement system. Yes, all high quality SLR lenses can be adapted, but both the vastly shorter reg distance and the larger and heavier SLR lenses work against the idea of a small, compact cam - the little NEX disappears off the back of the lens! Even a Zeiss 21mm ZE is very large and front heavy even with a tripod mount on the adaptor, I imagine.



Nov 14, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.4 #9 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philip_pj wrote:
Thi

I could not live with a 5% keeper rate, philippe, throwing away 95% would break my heart! I shoot much less probably and aim for, and get 20% or more. Thanks for posting, nice images!



Would you guys please explain to me what you mean by a "keeper" rate?

I think of it more as what percentage of my images have critical focus. I would say with my Nikon and Pentax SLR gear using autofocus or manual focus with my split prism focus screen, I achieve critical focus on about 80% of my images and with my NEX 5N and magnified view in the EVF I achieve critical focus with about 95% of my images.

So, what is it that makes your images non-keepers? Are they out of focus, exposure that is so bad that it can't be recovered in PP or are you just not happy with the composition? And which of those factors do you attribute to the camera equipment.





Nov 14, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.4 #10 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


pdmphoto wrote:
From the ZR1, which I find exceptional for its sensor size. I can't say the same for images I've seen from NEX cameras.


Hmmmm.

Yes, the NEX 5N does not have exceptional IQ for its SENSOR SIZE - just comparable to my Pentax K-5 and the D7000, which have the same sensor size and all three of which I think have exceptional IQ

I think the point of the NEX is that the images are exceptional considering the CAMERA SIZE.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:06 AM
crazeazn
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p.4 #11 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff Kott wrote:
Would you guys please explain to me what you mean by a "keeper" rate?

I think of it more as what percentage of my images have critical focus. I would say with my Nikon and Pentax SLR gear using autofocus or manual focus with my split prism focus screen, I achieve critical focus on about 80% of my images and with my NEX 5N and magnified view in the EVF I achieve critical focus with about 95% of my images.

So, what is it that makes your images non-keepers? Are they out of focus, exposure that is so bad that it
...Show more

Philip's keeper rate is more of a composition #. For every 100 photos I shoot, probably about 30 are out of focus, composed poorly, over exposed etc so 70% keeper rate. Of the remaining 70, I will probably pick around 40-50 or so to keep. In the past my keeper rate was more like take 100 shots, throw away 70 keep 10. lol.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:26 AM
douglasf13
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p.4 #12 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


denoir wrote:
In the shadows yes, where the 5DII is terrible, but not in the highlights where it's well ahead of the C3/5N.



I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you just talking about the different tone curves of the raw files? To me, measuring usable dynamic range equates to exposing the highlights up to the clipping point, and then pushing the shadows to see how much detail remains in those shadows, no? I would think that the difference in highlight latitude is just a matter of different camera metering, not a matter of actual dynamic range differences.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:35 AM
douglasf13
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p.4 #13 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff Kott wrote:
Hmmmm.

Yes, the NEX 5N does not have exceptional IQ for its SENSOR SIZE - just comparable to my Pentax K-5 and the D7000, which have the same sensor size and all three of which I think have exceptional IQ

I think the point of the NEX is that the images are exceptional considering the CAMERA SIZE.


I think I would say that the 16mp EXMOR sensor is exceptional for its sensor size, since that covers all three of those cameras.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:36 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.4 #14 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


crazeazn wrote:
Philip's keeper rate is more of a composition #. For every 100 photos I shoot, probably about 30 are out of focus, composed poorly, over exposed etc so 70% keeper rate. Of the remaining 70, I will probably pick around 40-50 or so to keep. In the past my keeper rate was more like take 100 shots, throw away 70 keep 10. lol.



OK, that's what I thought. Some of the factors can be attributed to the camera and some can't. I find focus on the NEX with EVF exceptional and metering to be as good as my Nikon bodies and better than my Pentax. As far as composition goes, I think it's a matter of personal preference as to whether someone likes working with an OVF or EVF.

I must say that I being able to see the histogram in the NEX EVF and adjust aperture, ISO and exposure compensation without taking my eye from the viewfinder tends to have a really positive impact on my "keeper" percentage. But if someone prefers working with a DSLR for ergonometric reasons, I totally get it.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:44 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.4 #15 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


wfrank wrote:
EDIT: The NEX with alt glass does a whole lot of things very well, but it simply cant do this:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5892347020_bc897bf3f4_b.jpg



I can live with that



Nov 15, 2011 at 02:30 AM
sebboh
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p.4 #16 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


wfrank wrote:
EDIT: The NEX with alt glass does a whole lot of things very well, but it simply cant do this:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5892347020_bc897bf3f4_b.jpg


i'll agree that the NEX can't really match the dof of a 35/1.4 on FF, and this is really the only reason i ever think of getting a FF camera, but you can certainly get just the eyes of a small dog in focus with everything blurred to oblivion with the NEX. i don't have any similar examples as i generally prefer my noses to be a bit less blurred than that but here's two examples of what is possible with the nex's sensor:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5196028870_65910b9074_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6033/6345057954_1cd6a7e241_o.jpg
where the NEX loses out is when you want to include more of the environment in the portrait while still having a narrow dof. i'm always tempted to get an a900 just to shoot a c/y 35/1.4 and rokkor 58/1.2 wide open for these types of shots, but i just don't think i'd use it often enough. of course medium or large format is really the way to go if that kind of shooting is your thing...

Edited on Nov 15, 2011 at 04:37 AM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2011 at 02:59 AM
crazeazn
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p.4 #17 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


wait, you can use the c/y 35 1.4 on a sony a900?


Nov 15, 2011 at 03:42 AM
sebboh
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p.4 #18 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


crazeazn wrote:
wait, you can use the c/y 35 1.4 on a sony a900?


with a little effort (leitax to m42 plus m42 to a-mount adapter), yes.



Nov 15, 2011 at 04:17 AM
briantho
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p.4 #19 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


sebboh wrote:
i'll agree that the NEX can't really match the dof of a 35/1.4 on FF, and this is really the only reason i ever think of getting a FF camera...


Could you explain this a bit more? From my experience you can get razor thin dof with the NEX depending on the lens.

What's the difference between FF and APS-C? 1mm vs 2mm in focus? And when do you need more narrow dof than for instance the below examples? Couldn't it actually be that the minor difference in dof between FF and APC-C actually is more to the advantage of the smaller sensor?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6117/6295033605_a1d55a8834_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6183/6123313327_8742fccd7f_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6192/6131228914_8a2eb207eb_b.jpg



Nov 15, 2011 at 04:21 AM
AhamB
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p.4 #20 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


briantho wrote:
Could you explain this a bit more? From my experience you can get razor thin dof with the NEX depending on the lens.

What's the difference between FF and APS-C? 1mm vs 2mm in focus? And when do you need more narrow dof than for instance the below examples? Couldn't it actually be that the minor difference in dof between FF and APC-C actually is more to the advantage of the smaller sensor?


sebboh explained it quite well:
were the NEX loses out is when you want to include more of the environment in the portrait while still having a narrow dof. i'm always tempted to get an a900 just to shoot a c/y 35/1.4 and rokkor 58/1.2 wide open for these types of shots, but i just don't think i'd use it often enough. of course medium or large format is really the way to go if that kind of shooting is your thing...

FF gives wider coverage with the same shallow DOF. With APS-C you have to back up (or use a shorter FL) to get the same coverage, which increases DOF.



Nov 15, 2011 at 04:28 AM
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