p.2 #1 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
I was initially very interested in the NEX-7, but when I looked deeper into going from FF to APS-C, I decided against it. An APS-C sensor will never do something like my Rollei Zeiss 35/1.4 justice. And there's no lens for the NEX that will give me the same capability or look.
If I wanted lightweight I'd stick with the 5DII and an assortment of the light Oly lenses like the 18/3.5, 21/3.5, 24/2.8, 35/2.8, 50/1.8, 80/2, 100/2.8, 200/5. There's a few other lightweight jems from other manufacturers that could be included.
p.2 #2 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Ahh understood. I'm very heavy handed b/c of my film-student-cheap days. If any of my friends ask for advice on shooting I tell them to put in a 256 meg card in.
p.2 #3 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Hey, I liked those postcard shots, Philipe
About the NEX taking over the DSLR, I'm not sure about that. My travel setup is usually the D700 and 5N with a couple of ZF lenses like the 28 mm and 100 mm. These lenses would serve different purposes on each camera. Toss in the ZM 50 Planar as my NEX body cap or times when I want something light, then I'm done..
Yes, the new 25 f/2 sounds very interesting..time to sell the 28?
p.2 #4 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Philber, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Having a 5Dc, and contemplating of 5Dmk2 or mk3, I also follow the NEX stuff with interest.
Shooting mostly classical concerts, I am wondering how loud are NEX shutters in comparison to 5Dmk2 with liveview activated. I thought NEX might be a stealth setup for stuff like that (with a 28/2.8 and a 50/1.4).
Thoughts and recommendations would be appreciated.
p.2 #5 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
philber wrote:
Thanks, Boris! The image is with ZM 18. As I was just back from a meeting, I did not have my tripod with me, so I placed the camera on a marble suface. I remember who gave me tripod religion, Boris... I now have three. My Velbon, my ultra-light Cullmann when I cannot take a larger one, and the middle Manfrotto. All thanks to you. And better results, too, IMHO.
This image is good except the mirror image on the marble has right Red than the real has oversaturated RED.
p.2 #6 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
The NEX certainly seems to work for you Philippe.
I love the idea of having a small NEX kit too, but for me it can't replace my 5DII at this time. Because of the FF sensor.
There's no substitute for f.e. the 35/1.4 ZE I'm using. All 35mm equivalents on NEX are a lot slower.
p.2 #7 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
philber wrote:
John, in order to get the "best" shot out of an oppotunity, I tend to play around with multiple options. Not as many as Boris, of course, but still. So, in the end, that makes for quite a few shots which, while technically satisfying, are not keepers because ther eis a better one in the series.
Paul, I understand your point about light Oly primes, but the single factor keeping me in the DSLR camp right now is their ability to support my beloved Zeiss primes. So ditching that is a sure way to make a NEX-only shooter.
Although one should not forget that the NEX 5N and 7 are brand new designs, and the 5DII on its last legs in terms of commercial life. So, at the back of my mind sits the fact that 5DIII can't be that far away, and that it should at least catch up in those areas where the Sony is ahead.
A couple of postcard shots. Yes, I know, I should know better. But temptation was strong.....Show more →
I don't believe that a 21 megapixel, full frame, with great HD video is on its "last legs" any time soon. Zeiss glass is great, but too heavy. The new ZE 35/1.4 is almost twice as heavy/big as my old Rollei 35/1.4. Seems you would rather switch cameras than lenses? I don't see anything special in all of the Sony 5/N pics I have seen posted. I'm still seeing new ones from 5D/II users.
p.2 #8 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Lovely shots Philippe
As for the points you raise: 1) Does it encourage you to go out and shoot?
This is of course the most important point. It's enough to justify sticking with the camera.
2) Number of keepers
Sure, it's important.
3) IQ
How good do you need it to be? If you don't print very large and don't pixel peep then it's definitely good enough. The latitude in the RAW files is so-so, but then again so is the latitude of the RAW files of the 5DII. That it's a crop sensor is of course an issue when using lenses designed for FF. I have a problem with that, but it's only because I'm so used of using the lenses on FF. Had I not had the same expectations then I'm sure I would have had no issue with it.
There is however a final point which is perhaps the most important to me: 4) How does the camera feel to use?
My problem with the NEX (C3/5N anyway) is that I don't like using it handheld. From tripod there is a certain charm to it, reminding me of how you shoot an old medium format camera with a waist level viewfinder. In that situation however I only have to interact with the lens and the monitor. Handheld is something different. I can't bring myself to like it as I think it is a thoroughly poorly designed camera. The balance and mass distribution is wrong, it feels like a piece of disposable plastic and I'm offended by its 'styling' every time I look at it. The 5DII may not be a masterpiece of industrial design, but at least it has a rubbery quality feel to it and it's decently proportioned.
I'm personally still waiting for somebody to come up with a good digital camera design, but I'm not holding my breath. The best thing right now I can use is a great film camera design with a digital sensor (i.e the M9), although that approach isn't exactly in the spirit of good industrial design (form follows function). It's possible that the NEX-7 will be an improvement in that respect over the C3/5N - I'll wait before making a judgement until I've used one. I'm however, as I said, not holding my breath.
To me as a hobby photographer the most important thing is that I enjoy the process itself. It's in some ways more important to me than the actual images I take. That's why I still on occasion go shooting with an M6. I don't like film and I don't like scanning and the image quality is terrible. The camera however is such a joy to use (even more than the M9) that it is a justification enough to go out and shoot with it. At the other end there's the Leica X1 - a camera that has a wonderful lens and produces quite good images. It is however so frustrating to use (the AF & electronics in general are medieval) that I don't. The NEX isn't quite as bad but I'm constantly turned off by its design and the way it feels in your hand. So I don't use it. It's role is to be an M-mount backup camera should my M9 be incapacitated while I'm travelling. For that purpose it's adequate - although I hope I won't ever have to use it.
These are of course my own considerations and are not necessarily universal. If you are happy with how the NEX feels to use, then great, go for it! If its design doesn't bother you then it's a non-issue. I'm extremely sensitive to industrial design and I can't help but comparing it to designs such as the near-perfect M6 - but that's a personal obsession of mine
p.2 #9 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
I'm surprised with your comment re: So-so latitude in the RAW files of the NEX-5N?
The Sony 16MP sensor which i've used in my 5N and D7000 is well ahead of my 5D 2 in terms of RAW file latitude and among the best out there, full frame or otherwise.
How is the M9's latitude in RAW?
Its an awesome sensor in a tiny body. And with good lenses, you would struggle to pick between 16x24's with the Canon and the Sony.
I agree however about hand holding the camera, although a good case (adds a little size and proportion) and the EVF really help here. Also spending a few afternoons with it helped me adjust. This is mainly the size I think - I have smaller hands so am getting used to it fine now.
I do think over the next 12 months however, genuinely nice alternatives will pop up with less compromises - interesting times indeed.
p.2 #10 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
denoir wrote:
Lovely shots Philippe
As for the points you raise: 1) Does it encourage you to go out and shoot?
This is of course the most important point. It's enough to justify sticking with the camera.
2) Number of keepers
Sure, it's important.
3) IQ
How good do you need it to be? If you don't print very large and don't pixel peep then it's definitely good enough. The latitude in the RAW files is so-so, but then again so is the latitude of the RAW files of the 5DII. That it's a crop sensor is of course an issue when using lenses designed for FF. I have a problem with that, but it's only because I'm so used of using the lenses on FF. Had I not had the same expectations then I'm sure I would have had no issue with it.
There is however a final point which is perhaps the most important to me: 4) How does the camera feel to use?
My problem with the NEX (C3/5N anyway) is that I don't like using it handheld. From tripod there is a certain charm to it, reminding me of how you shoot an old medium format camera with a waist level viewfinder. In that situation however I only have to interact with the lens and the monitor. Handheld is something different. I can't bring myself to like it as I think it is a thoroughly poorly designed camera. The balance and mass distribution is wrong, it feels like a piece of disposable plastic and I'm offended by its 'styling' every time I look at it. The 5DII may not be a masterpiece of industrial design, but at least it has a rubbery quality feel to it and it's decently proportioned.
I'm personally still waiting for somebody to come up with a good digital camera design, but I'm not holding my breath. The best thing right now I can use is a great film camera design with a digital sensor (i.e the M9), although that approach isn't exactly in the spirit of good industrial design (form follows function). It's possible that the NEX-7 will be an improvement in that respect over the C3/5N - I'll wait before making a judgement until I've used one. I'm however, as I said, not holding my breath.
To me as a hobby photographer the most important thing is that I enjoy the process itself. It's in some ways more important to me than the actual images I take. That's why I still on occasion go shooting with an M6. I don't like film and I don't like scanning and the image quality is terrible. The camera however is such a joy to use (even more than the M9) that it is a justification enough to go out and shoot with it. At the other end there's the Leica X1 - a camera that has a wonderful lens and produces quite good images. It is however so frustrating to use (the AF & electronics in general are medieval) that I don't. The NEX isn't quite as bad but I'm constantly turned off by its design and the way it feels in your hand. So I don't use it. It's role is to be an M-mount backup camera should my M9 be incapacitated while I'm travelling. For that purpose it's adequate - although I hope I won't ever have to use it.
These are of course my own considerations and are not necessarily universal. If you are happy with how the NEX feels to use, then great, go for it! If its design doesn't bother you then it's a non-issue. I'm extremely sensitive to industrial design and I can't help but comparing it to designs such as the near-perfect M6 - but that's a personal obsession of mine ...Show more →
Yea, I loved my Minolta CLE. I even liked shooting with the Kodak SLR/c more than my Canon 5DII. It does make a personal difference - what we LIKE to shoot with. But in the end we are often valued as photographers by our results. I don't see a NEX as somethting that would elevate that over my 5DII. Otherwise, I would shoot with my Pany ZR1 (with Flip-bak screen) all day long
From the ZR1, which I find exceptional for its sensor size. I can't say the same for images I've seen from NEX cameras.
p.2 #11 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Sosua wrote:
I'm surprised with your comment re: So-so latitude in the RAW files of the NEX-5N?
The Sony 16MP sensor which i've used in my 5N and D7000 is well ahead of my 5D 2 in terms of RAW file latitude and among the best out there, full frame or otherwise.
In the shadows yes, where the 5DII is terrible, but not in the highlights where it's well ahead of the C3/5N.
Comparable to the C3/5N in the shadows, much better in the highlights and worse than the 5DII in the highlights. There's more to it though. The 5DII files and even more so the NEX files are very 'brittle' - i.e. processing easily trashes the image. The M9 RAW files on the other hand are very pliable - you can do heavy handed processing with minimal impact on the quality. It's almost like a RAW vs JPEG thing.
p.2 #14 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
I've just sold my entire 5DII kit with zeiss 21,28,50 and some canon glass. I did keep zeiss 100. Instead I bought Nex-5n with the kit 18-55 lens, the EVF and a canon to nex adapter to mount the zeiss 100 ze on it. I sold the kit mostly for financial reasons, but partially also to dabble into the mirror less world of small/light cameras. If the transition works out, i'll add some quality nex compatible glass, if it doesn't, I'll buy 5DIII, Sony FF or whatever other camera there might be in a year or so.
Here are my first key thoughts on the 5n with the kit lens. My canon adapter hasn't arrived yet and didn't have a chance to test the zeiss 100/2 on it yet.
Plus:
- Very light and small
- Very nice high ISO. ISO 3200 is completely usable and cleans up nicely in post processing.
- RAW files have a lot of room for manipulation.
- OLED tiltable viewfinder is great. It's great for low angle shots. Perfectly usable in dark conditions.
- 10fps is great for my son's activities.
- Programmable buttons make adjustments relatively easy (for such a small body)
Minus:
- Kit lens 18-55 is not very good. You get what you pay for I guess.
- Consistently underexposes by about 2/3 stop.
- Would be nice to have ability to wirelessly trigger flash units. At least having an add-on wireless flash controller would be nice.
- I wish there was a DOF button. It's buried in the menu and I would prefer most of the times to have it turned off and only turn it on when evaluating histogram before I take the shot. Right now if DOF preview is turned off, the histogram doesn't show.
- Lack of native high end lenses. Zeiss 24/1.8 looks interesting, but that's about it.
- No custom menu option
- Small eye-cup on the EVF, wish it was larger
- Max shutter speed only 1/4000s
Not sure about:
- Sony colors - they're different, not sure yet what to think about it. I'm used to Zeiss ZE rendering on 5D II. Let's see how the Zeiss ZE 100/2 performs after I get the NEX adapter.
Overall, I have mixed feelings. While the camera does show the potential for a light kit with some optional high end glass, native high end glass is non-existent. I also get much joy from the process of taking photos, and right now using FF body with Zeiss MF lenses is tough to beat. I'm going to stick with it for a while and then decide whether to embrace two systems (FF DSLR and NEX) or just one (NEX or DSLR).
I enjoy reading everyone's opinion on the whole mirror-less transition. So far I haven't produced nor seen too many wow shots. It is a new system, so let's see what some of you with much quality legacy glass can produce.
p.2 #16 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
To echo Philber's point, I recently sold my Canon 5dII and all of my Canon gear for very similar reasons. I now have two Panasonic GH2 bodies, with the 7-14mm zoom, 14-45 kit zoom, 14mm and 20mm pancake primes, 25 mm Leica f1.4, 45mm Olympus f1.8 and the 45-200mm zoom. The Panasonic gear is a fraction of the weight of the Canon gear and is a true delight to use. The primes are excellent - better than the Oly 18mm, 21mm, 24mm primes I used on the Canon - and the 7-14 and 14-45mm zooms are better than the Canon L equivalents.
It's true I give up something in image quality, though not much at all compared to my original Canon 5D, and the Panasonic system and lenses are (for me) a true joy to use. Especially used at base iso (160) the Panasonic very much rivals the original Canon 5D.
I also use the Panasonic gear to take photos of my son's soccer games with very good results (though not as good as with the Canon).
I'm finding that a key factor (for me) is to commit fully to one system. I then fully learn (and remember) the camera's capabilities and weaknesses and am able to use the gear to the best advantage possible.
I agree with you - I think I should rephrase. It is great for what it is - a kit lens. It cannot compare to a high-end glass, which would be unreasonable to expect. I should have been more clear...
p.2 #18 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
RickPerry wrote:
Just to give you an idea of the Sony translucent @65/Zeiss 16-80 output - here is sample of one of my first shots. Jpeg - late afternoon photo - very little pp. Next chance I get - I will do a side by side 5D/@65 comparison of the same shot.
I'd definitely agree that the CZ16-80 can't compare to a good prime, but I think your copy looks a little soft compared to the shots I've gotten with that lens; I'll have to go back and see if I can dig up some comparisons.
p.2 #20 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan
Here's one of the first shots i took with a used M8 with a 21mm lens :-)
I had one of those tiny table top tripods that fit in my pocket which came in handy.
Regardless of what u go with, my opinion is that smaller is definitely better in many situations.
