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Archive 2011 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...

  
 
Sagar
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p.4 #1 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


This is interesting




Nov 12, 2011 at 12:32 PM
artd
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p.4 #2 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


JamesBeach wrote:
I'm not putting words in your mouth. Saying that it's ironic that photographers are so critical of art is tantamount to telling them to be quiet because they're lucky to be in the club.

No sir, it most certainly is not. I am engaging in an open discussion by expressing an observation. Why should I be painted as some sort of bad guy telling people to be quiet? This is silly. By that logic, anytime anyone makes a contrary point, they would be telling someone to be quiet.

My intent is to entice a discussion, not stifle one. I would very much welcome a dialogue as to why people are critical or disapproving of this particular piece of work. To that end, I would point out that much of the posting in this thread is less along the lines of criticism and more along the lines of derision and ridicule.


The fact of the matter is that people have been saying art, all works of art, suck and are stupid and any number of other criticisms for as long as art has been a thing to go out and see. Some people will hate it regardless of what it is; get used to it. That people who happen to take photographs are likewise human and so subject to liking and not liking things isn't ironic or anything else except normal.

Total agreement from me. And my point is that among people who work in creative mediums, photographers seem the quickest to deride someone else's art. Again, I have no objection to people not liking something. But I would encourage people and photographers in particular to at least consider the possibilty that there is some substance behind the work instead of being flippantly dismissive.


It is absolutely incidental that the piece is a photograph. That it's a photo (and the most expensive single print) might have resulted in it getting mentioned here, but other than that, it's just another in a very long line of expensive art pieces. That is the source of most of the ridicule you object to. How could anyone pay that much money? As has already been established, we suspect it has nothing to do with its artistic value.

Yes, again I completely agree there is a long line of expensive art pieces that have been subjected to public ridicule. And I too find it fascinating that these pieces sell for so much money. (Though I am not suprised by it, given the fact that wealthy people pay outrageous sums of money for all kinds of things.)

But I am focusing on the posting in this thread that has been about ridiculing the photographic merits of this particular work. There is a sentiment among some photographers that the photo is devoid of any value and in that context the fact that this piece sold for so much is what is incendental. I would point to comments like "It really doesn't look difficult at all to "recapture" that image." "I think you posted the wrong link to the photo; the one you attached was from your camera phone." "Its still photographic junk" and so on. I am saying that yes, there are reasons why Gursky's work has merit, why it hangs in museums and why people pay money for it. If people want to discuss or debate those merits (or lack thereof), I am all for it. This being a photography forum, I feel that's more relevant than musing over the economic underpinnings of the high end art world.



Nov 12, 2011 at 12:48 PM
PetKal
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p.4 #3 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


artd wrote:
And I too find it fascinating that these pieces sell for so much money. (Though I am not suprised by it, given the fact that wealthy people pay outrageous sums of money for all kinds of things.)



True. Although I must say I thought this iconic article would have fetched at least $500,000.
That was a disappointment of sorts.



Nov 12, 2011 at 01:20 PM
Breitling65
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p.4 #4 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


I wouldn't pay $10 for it besides looks like overexposed ...


Nov 12, 2011 at 01:22 PM
outlawyer
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p.4 #5 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


PetKal wrote:
Both "art" and "trash" are subjective and interchangeable notions.
That photograph reminds me of this piece of art (or trash) for which Canada paid $1.8 million many years ago.

Equally laden with hidden meanings and emotionally stirring those two masterpieces are.


D'oh Canada!



Nov 12, 2011 at 01:43 PM
PetKal
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p.4 #6 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Deleted

Edited on Nov 13, 2011 at 05:55 AM · View previous versions



Nov 12, 2011 at 09:16 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #7 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Tom K. wrote:
The emperor has no cloths.


But perhaps he has clothes? ;-)

EB-1 wrote:
It looks like a bad pan and stitch to me with poorly aligned grass. Am I missing something??


Yes.

marko1953 wrote:
I accompanied an art teacher and class to the art gallery in Sydney recently. There was a presentation on "Landscape Photography" which I sat through. I listened to a very learned art expert talk about various artists and she showed the photos on a projector. I was shocked! One work was a grassy mound with no trees. To me I would have deleted it from my camera, plain, boring no centre of interest....


As a prelude to what I'm going to write, if you don't' already know it, much of my work is probably the sort of landscape photography that many of you would do and probably the sort of stuff that you imagine "has value" in contrast to the Gursky work that has been described here in all sorts of offensive terms. Some of you might even admit to liking some of it.

I have found it far more useful and profitable to expose myself to a wide range of photographic genres, with the goal of understanding them rather than ridiculing them. It takes a bit of effort to seek out and attempt to understand work that you initially don't understand, may not enjoy, and may even think is worthless. But if you don't engage the work it will, indeed, never be anything more than this. If you do make an honest attempt to understand, a couple of outcomes are possible.

1. Your actual knowledge of the work and its creator will allow you to articulately voice your disagreement and your contrary opinion, rather than bleating stuff about "junk" and "cloths" and all the rest. In other words, you will be able to confirm your dislike for the work. No loss, aside from a bit of time.

2. On the other hand, you might discover that there is more to the work than you imagined via your initial superficial and naive look. And if you do discover this - and it happens frequently if you actually invest yourself in it - there are all sorts of potential benefits. For one, you may find to your surprise that something you regarded as "junk" actually has the power to affect and move you in ways that are worth experiencing. For another, you might find that the exposure to work outside your normal comfort zone will help you grow as a photographer - unless you think that a) there is nothing left for you to learn, and b) your work is as perfect as it can possibly be.

Again, keeping in mind the sort of work that I do, I have found inspiration for my own photography in work that bears almost no superficial connection to what I do: Gursky, Wall, Avedon, Arbus, Penn, Burtynsky, and many more too numerous to list. There is a lot to see and learn in even that non-photographic "art" stuff that some of you seem to ready to dismiss.

In my view, while conventional beauty is important in much of my photography, photography has the capacity to do much more than produce another pretty sunset photograph of Yosemite Valley from Tunnel View.

It is hubris to think that all that you know is all that is worth knowing and that the only explanation for other points of view is that those others must be naive, stupid, or fools.

Dan



Nov 12, 2011 at 09:20 PM
Peter Le
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p.4 #8 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


gdanmitchell wrote:
But perhaps he has clothes? ;-)

Yes.

As a prelude to what I'm going to write, if you don't' already know it, much of my work is probably the sort of landscape photography that many of you would do and probably the sort of stuff that you imagine "has value" in contrast to the Gursky work that has been described here in all sorts of offensive terms. Some of you might even admit to liking some of it.

I have found it far more useful and profitable to expose myself to a wide range of photographic genres, with the goal of understanding them
...Show more

Very well put.....Thank You Dan......



Nov 12, 2011 at 10:06 PM
coranda
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p.4 #9 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Here are a couple of descriptions of what the picture means. I'm not offering them with any personal comment or opinion, just relaying what others, including Gursky, have said about the work.

Gursky said:

"It says a lot using the most minimal means … for me it is an allegorical picture about the meaning of life and how things are."

And a spokesperson for auction house Christie's described it thus:

"a dramatic and profound reflection on human existence and our relationship to nature on the cusp of the 21st century"



Nov 13, 2011 at 12:41 AM
coranda
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p.4 #10 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Dan,

Without offering an opinion on the Gursky photograph I have to admit that your comments put me in mind of something I have encountered in local and national photography competitions here in Australia - and I imagine it is the same around the world.

Many photographers, particularly amateurs (of which I am definitely one) judge a photograph purely by the impact of the visual. I'm not saying that's wrong but I am saying that that is only one way to judge a photograph, particularly when you talk about photographs as art.

I met one judge who proudly stated that he never looks at the title of a photograph he is judging, he considers it irrelevant. Now, often it is, but sometimes it very important because it gives the viewer a starting point for understanding what the photograph is about.

I think the issue here is that it is quite common for even very talented photographers to take the view that the visual impact of the image is all there is to a good photo. That view is not unreasonable but it is only one perspective and it is a perspective that makes it impossible to see any real merit in Gursky's image.



Nov 13, 2011 at 12:53 AM
abam
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p.4 #11 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


"gursky said: it says a lot using the most minimal means … for me it is an allegorical picture about the meaning of life and how things are."

gursky's personal take on the meaning of life interests me very little.

to each his own, though.



Nov 13, 2011 at 01:23 AM
15Bit
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p.4 #12 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Hmm, discussions of art take me back to being a student living with an Art History major. Too much spare time, too much alcohol and the solid un-moveable knowledge of right and wrong that you have in your late teens and early twenties.

With respect to this picture i have to confess i struggle to see how it is worth 4 million dollars. I try not to equate the monetary value with the artistic value though. In a sense they are related, but i think in the most part they are not.

The monetary value reflects the wider work of the photographer (as is the case with any artist) and must be considered in this context. The cultural impact, coherence and artistic impact of the works by an "artist" all contribute to the value of any single work. So as a standalone work, outside any wider portfolio/context the value of this one picture would almost certainly be greatly reduced. Unfortunately, there are also non-artistic contributions to the monetary value as "art" becomes a vehicle for investment. Much of the ticket value is then also subject to the mercurial currents of our economic system.

The artistic value of a work relates to its impact on the viewer. This of course will change from person to person, and with the mood of the viewer. Accordingly it is the most subjective of assessment criteria, and so the one which evokes most debate. One thing is for sure - you have to view any artwork in person to make a proper judgement of its artistic value. I realised this a few years ago when pulled along to Tate Britain by a friend. Being a sciency person with little in the way of artistic gifts i had always been a little sceptical of the whole art gallery thing. But stood in front of "Lillith" by John Collier i realised that most of the impact of "art" is seeing it in person. The subtle details of that picture were of course not captured on any poster you can buy or any jpg you can view, but beyond that the whole thing seemed to glow with an aura of its own. It was quite enthralling. At least to me it was - many others walked past giving it little more than a glance. Following that i do not judge the artistic merit of this apparently boring view of a river without seeing it first hand. And in this case, with the image being 12ft wide, i can't see how you can judge it without seeing it. Its scale and presentation *must* form part of the viewing experience.

As a final note - Someone should perhaps mention to the news media that it is important to report that the picture is 12ft wide, as many are neglecting to do so and are thus giving the impression this is a "normal" sized photo that is selling for 4 million dollars.



Nov 13, 2011 at 04:38 AM
David Baldwin
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p.4 #13 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


When I first saw this story I too thought immediately about Hans Christian Andersen. The old boy knew a thing or two about human nature.

Perhaps we should stop worrying about mood, lighting, composition, communication and just go out and photograph urinals or something, apparently there are people out there who appreciate such things. Then we can say it is a comment on the evanescence of life or some such bollocks.

Just think, if this photo could be printed really, really big and auctioned off, enough money could be raised to finance the Euro deficit!

Problem sorted.



Nov 13, 2011 at 04:42 AM
EOS20
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p.4 #14 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Sagar wrote:
This is interesting



Interesting video, definitely worth watching.

If you pause it at 5:20 in the video you can see the photo hanging on the wall in the art gallery.







Nov 13, 2011 at 04:46 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.4 #15 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


I would certainly be disappointed if I had taken that photo when I was reviewing it at home. I may have played around with it as a B&W conversion to try and rescue it, but most likely it would have been deleted.

Art is in the eye of the beholder, but to me it's a crappy snapshot. Too bad the person who bought didn't give the money to a charity or medical research.



Nov 13, 2011 at 05:18 AM
coranda
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p.4 #16 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Pixel Perfect wrote:
I would certainly be disappointed if I had taken that photo when I was reviewing it at home. I may have played around with it as a B&W conversion to try and rescue it, but most likely it would have been deleted.

Art is in the eye of the beholder, but to me it's a crappy snapshot. Too bad the person who bought didn't give the money to a charity or medical research.


In fact, apparently it didn't look that bare originally. It seems Gursky spent quite a bit of time and effort removing objects to get it just the way he wanted it.

But, as you say, it's in the eye of the beholder. Below is an image I did a few months ago. Most photographers I've showed it to think it's rubbish because it's so bland and empty. That's fine by me but I love it. I consider it amongst my best few dozen images for the year. No one's going to give me 50c for it no matter how large I print it but it pleases me. And in the end, that's all that really matters. Sure, we'd all like other people to like our work but, as an amateur, I don't need to make a cent from photography so I can afford the luxury of just aiming to please myself.

I suspect people like Gursky have a similar attitude but they also have the good fortune/talent to have an aesthetic that appeals to the art establishment. I can't criticise him for that.

http://www.peterjlawrence.com/idau/images/Blue.jpg



Nov 13, 2011 at 05:54 AM
coranda
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p.4 #17 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Too bad the person who bought didn't give the money to a charity or medical research.


That's not going to happen because it doesn't serve the same purpose for the purchaser. The thing that makes art worth whatever it's valued at is the same thing that sets all prices - the market. The picture is worth $4.3 million because someone was willing to pay that much and that market exists because there are enough people with more money than they know what to do with who are looking for creative ways to make more money. To them, art is a speculative investment.

To be honest, I like the Gursky image, even though I've never seen it in print form, but no amount of artistic integrity will ever impose or justify any price tag. It's monetary value, when you get into those sorts of figures, is down to it's perceived future value.

The other plausible explanation for these sorts of purchases is to demonstrate a power beyond pure wealth by owning something significant that no one else can own even if they are richer than you.

At least this is all happening while the artist is still alive so he can get some financial benefit. People will pay better than decent money to buy new works directly from him. Too often in the past decent prices came only some time after the artists death.



Nov 13, 2011 at 07:39 AM
eric_m
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p.4 #18 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


I find the photo in question aesthetically pleasing. I really like abstracts. I have trouble finding them myself "out in the wild."

That said, I think spending $4 million on a print that isn't very archival is a bit silly, at best. Of course, if I had that kind of discretionary money, I'd be hiring somebody to read the forums and write my comments for me.



Nov 13, 2011 at 08:19 AM
halie
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p.4 #19 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


coranda wrote:



In fact, apparently it didn't look that bare originally. It seems Gursky spent quite a bit of time and effort removing objects to get it just the way he wanted it.

But, as you say, it's in the eye of the beholder. Below is an image I did a few months ago. Most photographers I've showed it to think it's rubbish because it's so bland and empty. That's fine by me but I love it. I consider it amongst my best few dozen images for the year. No one's going to give me 50c for it no matter how large I
...Show more


If you would clone out the helicopter I think you'd really have something.



Nov 13, 2011 at 09:14 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #20 · To think I would not have even kept this Raw File...


Thank you for raising the level of discussion concerning this topic, and for articulating several key points:

1. The difference between aesthetic value and monetary value and the different factors that might affect each form of value. (For the record, I'm sympathetic to Gursky's work, but I am uneasy, for a variety of reasons, about the specific circumstances of this sale.)

2. Your story relating the difference between reacting to what you imagine you "know" about a work of art and reacting to the actual piece. We increasingly live in a virtual world in which imaginary stand-ins for reality replace the real thing, and we often act as if we know the real thing when we really don't at all. Like you, I have had - more than once - the experience of having my opinion completely transformed by seeing the actual object. (I still feel the shiver down the spine when I think of the first time I saw the huge Monet water lily painting at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, a work that I only "knew" through small reproductions in books.)

Dan

15Bit wrote:
Hmm, discussions of art take me back to being a student living with an Art History major. Too much spare time, too much alcohol and the solid un-moveable knowledge of right and wrong that you have in your late teens and early twenties.

With respect to this picture i have to confess i struggle to see how it is worth 4 million dollars. I try not to equate the monetary value with the artistic value though. In a sense they are related, but i think in the most part they are not.

The monetary value reflects the wider work of the
...Show more



Nov 13, 2011 at 10:52 AM
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