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Archive 2011 · Film discussion thread

  
 
mirkoc
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p.1 #1 · Film discussion thread


I recently started to experiment more seriously with film cameras. I did shoot film as a kid, and even made some B&W prints at home, but since my 'real' entrance in photography about five years ago, I have shot only digital. I believe there are others here who in years got more serious about photography and would also like or have already started experimenting with film. There are also many people here with years of serious film photography knowledge and who are generous to share some of it.

So,
being expert or not, please post your experience about various films you have used. Why you like it or not, what do you use it for, how is it in comparison to other films, say something about tonality, overall look, how sharp, grainy, contrasty it is, how much do you push or pull it, say whatever you think it is important (being no expert, I don't know the terminology well).

If you wish, say also something about developing formulas, color correction filters, scanning, recommend a good link, etc.

I would not like the thread to become film vs digital bashing!

At last, but not least important, post some pics with adjacent info about camera, lens, film sort, format, scanner etc! This is gear forum, isn't it!



Sep 12, 2011 at 09:23 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #2 · Film discussion thread


Sounds like a good idea. After having quit film for 3 years, now I'm starting again. There is something I love about it and keeps me coming back despite all the hassles.


Sep 12, 2011 at 10:26 AM
redisburning
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p.1 #3 · Film discussion thread


favorite slide films: velvia 50, provia 100f
favorite color negative films: portra 160, portra 400
favorite black and white film: all of them but the top of my list is neopan 400, acros, tri-x, tmax 400 and pan-f.
favorite discontinued films: fuji presto 1600, kodachrome

velvia 50, portra 160 and neopan 400 are my go-tos. Im probably going to switch to tri-x though.



Sep 12, 2011 at 11:42 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.1 #4 · Film discussion thread


efke 25 has pure blacks and whites
portra 400 gives lovely portraits



Sep 12, 2011 at 01:18 PM
Makten
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p.1 #5 · Film discussion thread


I didn't "come back" to film, since I started my photographing with a digital camera. So I don't have the common bias that many oldtimers do.

What I've discovered, is that if you are scanning B&W film and processing it manually, sort of any film can give any "look". It's a matter of applying a curve that gives the tonality you want, which probably is much more difficult when optically enlarging on paper. Of course different films have various characteristics, but the choice of exposure and developer is far more important than the film itself. The largest visible difference I get between films is the grain, after processing them to a look that I want. But that processing gets easier if the film characteristics matches the look, even if it isn't necessary.
I've settled for Kodak Tmax 400 as my main B&W film (with Tmax dev.), because of it's versatility, tiny grain and higher contrast than for instance Tri-X. It can be exposed from ISO ~200 to 1250 without needing to alter the development, even if it of course would benefit from that.

I develop all my films at home, including C-41 and lately even E-6. I've only tried a few negative color films, and I don't think I like the modern Kodak ones. They have a huge latitude which is nice, but there are color casts in the shadows that are hard to get rid of. Specifically Portra 400 behaves a bit weird.
E-6 is the total opposite. It gives you only 5-7 stops of DR to play with, but the colors are just gorgeous. Even with my sloppy home developing in a simple Paterson tank, I've gotten far better colors than with the C-41 films.

Scanning is the worst part with B&W, or rather the processing. If you let the scanner software do everything for you, you'll end up with inferior results that very much can be mimiced with a digital camera. But scanning as a color positive, extracting the sharpest channel (in most cases blue) and then applying an individual curve for each images, gives results that – if the format is large enough and/or the scanner is good enough – will give you possibilities for tonality that digital just can't come close to.
Negative Color film is both worse and easier. The scanner software(s) does the conversion pretty good (Epson scan in my case), but if you want to scan "raw", it becomes a real PITA since you then manually have to exclude the orange film mask.
Slides scans very well on my Epson V700 and there's not much work at all needed in post processing. The drawback is the low DR (which also is beneficial for some work), tight tolerances for temperature during developing, and the high cost of the film itself.

----------------

I shoot mostly 6x7 medium format, so for 135 film you'll have issues with film flatness and too low resolution with consumer scanners. Anyway, here are some typical examples of each film type.

Tmax 400 underexposed one stop, developed normally. This gives a negative that's a bit thin, but the contrast in the midtones is still quite high, which made it very easy to process to desired result. The deepest shadows are blocked, but that's not a bad thing when you want blacks to be black.


Sheet by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


Tri-X is a bit different, even if you can get sort of the same results as with Tmax. I'd say it gives "more shades of gray", which perhaps can be seen here. It's also not as sharp as Tmax and gives a larger grain, that can be nice.


Arbetsdomstolen by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


Over to negative color film and Portra 400. This will give you an idea of the color casts that I mentioned. Looks nice, but not "natural".


Ride by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


Kodak Ektar is more punchy but have quite similar problems/colors as Portra, at occasion. The colors are bold and the contrast is higher, while still managable for large DR scenes. A bit colder rendering than Portra too, which I like.


Forklift by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


I've only developed two slide films at home so far, but I love it! Much, much nicer results than C-41. This is Fujichrome Provia 400X.


Nackademien by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


As you can see, the low contrast scene is rendered with a punch, color richness and contrast that is very far from negtive film. Perfect for overcast weather.

Oh, I have something from a roll of Provia 100F too, that is the only roll of film that I ever sent away for development. The colors are very much like the Provia 400X actually; a bit cold for anything but pure daylight.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Makten/Fujica_GM670/img004-1.jpg



Sep 12, 2011 at 02:09 PM
mh2000
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p.1 #6 · Film discussion thread


Kodak BW400CN for scanning is about the best general b&w film I have ever shot.

Traditional: Tri-X is beautiful and long legacy of greatness, have shot a lot in the past. Tmax 100 and 400 are both about the best (semi) traditional b&w films ever made IMO. Ilford Delta Pro 400 and Pan-F are good.

Velvia 50 (of course)

I liked Kodak High Definition 400 color film for fast, but don't love any color print films. Fuji 100 is quite good for a cheap film.

Best dead films: Kodak Technical Pan and Kodachrome.



Sep 12, 2011 at 02:34 PM
carstenw
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p.1 #7 · Film discussion thread


My favorite film of all I have tried so far, in any seriousness, is Adox CHS 25 (also known as Efke). Great tonality, but very slow, so you will need a tripod or loads of light.


Sep 12, 2011 at 03:28 PM
corposant
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p.1 #8 · Film discussion thread


carstenw wrote:
My favorite film of all I have tried so far, in any seriousness, is Adox CHS 25 (also known as Efke). Great tonality, but very slow, so you will need a tripod or loads of light.


I've seen some great stuff from Rollei Pan 25 as well.



Sep 12, 2011 at 04:29 PM
Zaitz
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p.1 #9 · Film discussion thread


I think Makten makes a strong case for developing your own color film. Awesome colors and contrast. I scan my negatives with an Epson 4990 which does an ok job. The drum scans I recently got were only marginally better. I may try another place for drum scans in the future.

I enjoy shooting large format for several reasons. But one of the best reasons I can come up with is it's just damn fun. The slower pace it imposes on you is an advantage, in my opinion. You can get some insanely nice cameras and lenses for dang cheap. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ is a great resource for info if you are interested. Their for sale section is great too.

I don't have as many film choices with LF. But I am trying to narrow things down so I can get a more defined and consistent work flow. For long exposures I enjoy the great reciprocity characteristics of Acros and, if I use color, Provia. For general use 4x5 and 8x10 I use Ilford HP5. Velvia is downright phenomenal when exposed perfectly. It's tough to use in high contrast situations for me though. So for that I have Portra 400 8x10. Incredible latitude and I can post process the colors as I see fit.

I like to shoot HP5 at 250 or 320 and develop accordingly. I think this works well even for high contrast situations. I am going to try a 2 bath development in the future with Pyrocat HD as that seems to work incredibly. Developing b&w is a lot of fun I think

Late afternoon in the Redwoods - this was tough:


All the details in the windows are preserved and I can see into every shadow area (though the edit is darkened too much after I re-adjusted my monitor):

You can see the original edit from my 4990 scan at the link. This image is my new edit of the drum scan which I feel is better and shows more of the detail in the dome. Lots of dodging and burning throughout.

Velvia's awesome colors:


There are also some great vintage lenses. This doesn't show anything truly unique but I do love it and at 300mm f4.5 and the working distance of 8x10 it can generate some very shallow dof. Heliar:

The Petzvals are quite unique too.

I generally developed with Rodinal. Although I am now using Pyrocat HD and plan to use the 2 bath method I mentioned.

Acros reciprocity - Metered about 15min. Exposed for 27. HP5 would have needed over an hour by my charts, more than 2 depending on the chart you go by! Although that is probably only less than 1 stop in actuality.


I've wanted to try Efke 25 but have heard a lot about quality problems with the coating that shows up as banding. I think it also has an almost ortho look which is not what I am after. But a fine grain 25 or 50 would be nice I think.

I enjoy shooting 35mm for the grain but do so seldomly. Waves at Superior tri-x @1600 or 3200:


Neopan 400



Sep 12, 2011 at 10:08 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #10 · Film discussion thread


Beautiful photos, Makten and Zaitz. I personally do not like color negative film, but both BW and reversal are my favourites. I shoot all kinds of Fujichromes as well as Neopan 400.


Sep 12, 2011 at 11:02 PM
redisburning
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p.1 #11 · Film discussion thread


zaitz that wave shots is incredible... feels like Godzilla is going to come out of the water any second now.


Sep 13, 2011 at 12:01 AM
mirkoc
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p.1 #12 · Film discussion thread


Interesting input everybody and nice photos Makten and Zaitz.

I'm wondering about color casts Makten mentioned: Is it just that film shows 'real' light that our brain normally process and flattens doing AWB of some kind similarly to digital cameras?

Perhaps if we observe things around us in a more conscious way regarding light and colour, we may notice these casts more intensively. Our brain suppresses a lot of information coming in. Somehow, that's my impression at least, when you look at the photo, be it on paper or monitor, this brain AWB doesn't work.

Beside these speculations, when you try some film, you begin to appreciate camera AWB and postprocessing WB possibilities digital brings along. It would be interesting to shoot everything with daylight setting on digital camera and watch for the color casts. Perhaps it is a cheap way to gather some color correction filter experience. I am waiting for 80B and FLD filters to arrive to try it out.

Regarding film, so far I tried and liked Tmax 100 and Tri-x so far. Tmax seems to be very fine grained in comparison to Tri-x. I tried Ilford XP2 too but didn't like contrasty look with comparably dark shadows. I didn't like Ektar very much too, looked kind of redish (has someone talked about color casts recently I had these developed and scanned in lab so I can't speak of developing and scanning (Noritsu QSS-32_33) details involved. I am looking to try more films and will report it here.



Sep 13, 2011 at 02:58 AM
Zaitz
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p.1 #13 · Film discussion thread


Thank you edward, redisburning, and mirkoc!

Ektar may have had a red cast because of an improper setting from the scanner. It probably had a profile for ektar that didn't get rid of the orange mask on the film. That's one of the problems with color negatives. It takes a bit more work to get rid of the orange mask. So if they didn't do a good job of that you may just be seeing a bit of the mask.

The wb settings of digital is nice. However some color casts, in my opinion, provide tremendous overall feel to the image. I just made a similar post on another forum. AWB and perfect neutral settings, especially at sunrise or sunset, don't usually jive with me.

Color casts can also be because of development I think. Not saying it's Makten's fault but I think color casts can come up during development.

My edit on top and stock ACR settings on bottom. Auto WB went even bluer!


My edit:


I don't rely on AWB. I rely on what I feel and want from the photo. The feeling of enveloping warmth and light was lost in the AWB version of the photo above!






Sep 13, 2011 at 03:26 AM
mirkoc
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p.1 #14 · Film discussion thread


Zaitz wrote:
The wb settings of digital is nice. However some color casts, in my opinion, provide tremendous overall feel to the image.

I don't rely on AWB. I rely on what I feel and want from the photo. The feeling of enveloping warmth and light was lost in the AWB version of the photo above!


I agree.

When I spoke about AWB convenience I thought mostly of flourescent, tungsten and difficult mixed lighting situations.



Sep 13, 2011 at 03:53 AM
c00kiem0nster
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p.1 #15 · Film discussion thread


for color i really like the portras. the results are very natural and just have a very pleasing look. unfortunately my last two rolls of color film came out somewhat weird. i do not know whether my lab screwed up or what might have gone wrong, but they scan horribly as i constantly get banding which i have never had before with the same films.

this is how it came out:


... by juke5489, on Flickr

i really liked the scene but the results are somewhat disappointing.

fortunately i still have an undeveloped roll of ilford 400 depicting the same scene in my camera. i am hoping for this one to turn out fine.

black and white wise, i really like kodak tmax. i just got a couple of rolls of ilford delta, but i have yet to see the results.

and then there is velvia. it really is a spectacular film. unfortunately slide film is sort of difficult to scan but lately i kinda seem to get the hang of it. it is just pure joy to look at the huge mf slides and see all the detail in there. it is great for landscapes and even portraits come out fine even though a lot of people do not seem to like it in that regard.



Sep 13, 2011 at 04:37 AM
Morfeus
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p.1 #16 · Film discussion thread


c00kiem0nster wrote:
unfortunately slide film is sort of difficult to scan


why do you say this? I find it much easier to scan slide film than negative film because I can have the film on a lightbox besides the monitor and see exactly how the scan should look like.

c00kiem0nster wrote:
for color i really like the portras. the results are very natural and just have a very pleasing look. unfortunately my last two rolls of color film came out somewhat weird. i do not know whether my lab screwed up or what might have gone wrong, but they scan horribly as i constantly get banding which i have never had before with the same films.


In our days is it quite difficult to find a good lab. I was using a pro lab that I knew from the old days for a couple of weeks and experienced all sorts of color casts. Then I switched to a real pro lab - there are only a handful left in Germany that deserve the pro - and all my problems where gone.



Sep 14, 2011 at 09:38 AM
kidtexas
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p.1 #17 · Film discussion thread


Pretty much any film from Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji is fantastic. Developing, scanning, and post processing can really affect an image quite a bit, regardless of what film it is. So be careful to not draw too many conclusions about the film when it's a different part of the process that is responsible.

Personally, I like T-Max 400 (TMY) and 3200 for B&W and Portra (all of them) for color. Fuji 400X is a pretty amazing film too, but I tend to prefer color neg to slide film. I used to shoot a lot of Tri-X, but find that the mix of the two T-Maxes is better. TMY is finer grained and sharper that Tri-X and just as flexible. And if I want 'grittier', then T-Max 3200 is faster, grittier, and actually resolves more than Tri-X as well. Not that Tri-X is a bad film - it's wonderful. Contrast with any of these films isn't a big issue for me. While there are some small differences in the shadows or highlights, if you are consistent with your developing, you should be able to get a very similar look from from Tri-X or TMY; they both have a pretty linear characteristic curve. I print them almost interchangeably at grade 2. And if you are scanning, minor differences are pretty easy to overcome with a tweak of your curves in photoshop.

Oh, and if you are into pretty contrasty and saturated photos, proceed directly to Velvia 50 or Kodak E100VS slide film.

Makten: That cast in the shadows of your Portra shot is NOT normal. I don't know if it's your developing or scanning/post processing, but something isn't right there. In my experience, Portra 400 is an incredibly natural looking film:


TOM by ezwal, on Flickr



Sep 14, 2011 at 09:58 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #18 · Film discussion thread


I always wonder why the orange film base is still kept for negative film. As far as I understand, it is no longer needed as all labs are now digital and a clear film base would simplify scanning a lot. Perhaps they don't want to invest in any new research in an admittedly dying technology.


Sep 14, 2011 at 01:19 PM
kidtexas
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p.1 #19 · Film discussion thread


The orange base isn't a base, i.e. it does not have uniform density. It's a mask which varies in density across the image. It helps improve color reproduction. Here's a thread on APUG which describes how it works:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/57928-c-41-colour-film-orange-mask.html



Sep 14, 2011 at 01:23 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #20 · Film discussion thread


kidtexas wrote:
The orange base isn't a base, i.e. it does not have uniform density. It's a mask which varies in density across the image. It helps improve color reproduction. Here's a thread on APUG which describes how it works:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/57928-c-41-colour-film-orange-mask.html


Thanks for the link. But still, two Agfa films are mentioned that are maskless. I would also add all the film made for the movie industry, that obviously is maskless as well.



Sep 14, 2011 at 01:30 PM
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