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Archive 2011 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today

  
 
mh2000
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p.18 #1 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


A lot of people liked quality-small long before digital cameras even existed! Minox GL, Olympus XA and Rollei 35S were all cameras I have shot in my film days and they are all smaller than my E-P1 with any lens on it, including the Oly 17.

The m43 sensor isn't so small and it is definitely much BIGGER than the "tons of really small cameras [from the] last 15 years."

You can take good photos with a m43 camera for sure, much better than my 20D certainly and at $1600 and rave reviews at its introduction... I guess my $300 E-P1 is just trash, no better than any junky P&S? WRONG! Just because it doesn't measure up to a M9 or 5D II doesn't put it in the same league as a "compact P&S."

snowboarder wrote:
Agree, not sure why people are suddenly all about "small".
I thought a mirrorless main advantage is to mount good glass on something
SMALLER than a regular DSLR.
Now the 4/3 crowd for example is loud about "big" NEX lenses. I guess
they have nothing else, what can you say about the 2x crop system anyway?
So it's great because it's small. Haven't we had tons of really small
cameras for last 15 years? Really confusing...
But honestly, m4/3 now has a small sensor and small lenses.
Do you really think that combination makes great image quality?




Aug 26, 2011 at 11:01 PM
mh2000
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p.18 #2 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


"Girlie men" aside, this does a good job of showing how close m43 is to APS, so all the "don't buy m43 when you can buy a NEX" doesn't look so compelling to me in this picture, especially when you compare m43 to a tiny P&S sensor!

Personally, I care way more about girls liking me than worrying about whether or not my gear makes some forum-whore think I'm a "girlie man."

denoir wrote:
That's because you haven't looked into it enough.

Anything below 35mm FF is lame, and even that is rubbish compared to 6x7 which is nothing next to 4x5 which again is for, as Schwarzenegger, put it, "girlie men" who don't have what it takes to shoot 8x10

As others have put it, it's a sliding scale. And to give a sense of proportions:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/moire/sensize_6.jpg





Aug 26, 2011 at 11:10 PM
mh2000
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p.18 #3 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


And I can confirm that my E-P1 blows my S95 out of the water for IQ and the S95 is a "larger sensor" P&S. Can still take good photos with the S95 though...

>>having actually used a much older 4/3 camera (olympus e520) and an a canon s90, i can tell you that difference was not even close.



Aug 26, 2011 at 11:13 PM
bluetsunami
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p.18 #4 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


The 28 Cron looks like it would pair very well with the NEX 7 since the 7 is supposed to be slightly larger than the 5 series. Almost M9 like in size.


Aug 27, 2011 at 12:07 AM
pdmphoto
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p.18 #5 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


denoir wrote:
It is on topic you ignorant lawyer thing

Hmm.. I can't really agree with you there about the ZM 25, but it's a question of personal preference rather than anything objective. The ZM 25 is optically truly superb but it is a bit too clinical for my taste. I almost always end up choosing the 28 Cron ASPH instead of it, although the ZM is actually superior in terms of raw optical performance.

There is one thing that I really like the ZM 25 for and it's night shots with long exposures. It produces very graceful diffraction stars and the
...Show more

The ZM25 is likely to look a whole lot different on the Nex 7. The Nex 7's need for higher resolving power, the AA filter, and the sensor size will take care of that. My guess it that it will be close to perfect for the Nex 7. Although, it wont be much of a wide angle anymore.



Aug 27, 2011 at 12:35 AM
douglasf13
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p.18 #6 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


The Nex-7 is only a little bit bigger than the Nex-5. In fact, it's almost identical in size to my nex-5 with this case on. It is the same in two dimensions, and only about 4mm wider.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/New-Ciesta-Leather-Half-Case-Dark-Brown-Sony-Nex-5-/06/!CB)(fQ!!2k~$(KGrHqEOKoYE0f7R7wBbBNI7jB8l5g~~_35.JPG



Aug 27, 2011 at 01:11 AM
uhoh7
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p.18 #7 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


pdmphoto wrote:
[
The ZM25 is likely to look a whole lot different on the Nex 7. The Nex 7's need for higher resolving power, the AA filter, and the sensor size will take care of that. My guess it that it will be close to perfect for the Nex 7. Although, it wont be much of a wide angle anymore.



ohhh..I was afraid someone would suggest this.....

my current 25:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6001/6007173114_afbd850cbe_z.jpg
pen f 25/2.8
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6027256936_8d3550d12a_b.jpg
supposed to be the highest rez of all pen fs

OK OK I'll calm down.....



Aug 27, 2011 at 01:40 AM
sebboh
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p.18 #8 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


denoir wrote:
And the M9 is ~32 mm if you exclude the lens mount and 14 mm thinner than the XD-11 if you include it. And it would be weird not to include it as it's a big hump on the XD. And of course the lenses are much fatter - they're standard SLR lenses.

Sure the XD-11 is not the smallest SLR. I have a smaller one - the Pentax P30. And it's still takes up far more space than the M9, even though it is thinner in places. First it's because of the mirror box and second because of the
...Show more

hmm, in my experience the m6 felt noticeably thicker and taller than my xd-11 where you grip it and sticking it in my coat felt more awkward (maybe part of that was sticking somebody else's leica in my pocket). my issue was with your block diagram that makes it look as though the xd-11 is block shaped like the leica. in actuality they are very similar volumes.

you should stick a pentax m 40/2.8 on your P30 and see how it feels:
http://www.rockycameras.com/ekmps/shops/rockcameras/images/pentax-smc-m-40mm-f-2.8-pancake-k-pk-40-2.8-prime-standard-lens-69.99-23507-p.jpg
in general the leica lenses and the short registration distance do a much better job of keeping things compact though i agree. back to the main point, there is definitely a size difference between the NEX 3, 5, or 7 and the m9. whether it is functional depends on your use and carrying method.



Aug 27, 2011 at 02:08 AM
denoir
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p.18 #9 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


sebboh wrote:
hmm, in my experience the m6 felt noticeably thicker and taller than my xd-11 where you grip it and sticking it in my coat felt more awkward (maybe part of that was sticking somebody else's leica in my pocket). my issue was with your block diagram that makes it look as though the xd-11 is block shaped like the leica. in actuality they are very similar volumes.


But they're not. Remove the mirror box and the viewfinder prism on the XD-11 and you'll end up with something the size of an M6.

Scaled to size (that's a Nikon D3X on the far right):

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/camsize6.jpg

back to the main point, there is definitely a size difference between the NEX 3, 5, or 7 and the m9. whether it is functional depends on your use and carrying method.

I'd modify that to say between the NEX 3, 5, and 7 and the m9. There's a rather large gap between the 3 and the 7 in terms of size - which is a good thing. The C3 is simply too small to be ergonomically well functioning for just about any lens. The beefed up NEX-7 will probably be an improvement in that respect, providing better ergonomics.



Aug 27, 2011 at 06:06 AM
Lotusm50
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p.18 #10 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Tariq Gibran wrote:
So, with the pre-order, are you not charged until it ships?



Right. Pre-ordered on Amazon. And I can always change my mind before it ships.




Aug 27, 2011 at 08:36 AM
kwalsh
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p.18 #11 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


denoir wrote:
Sure. In fact looking at the comparison makes me think that perhaps the most important difference is something that has not been mentioned here - 3:2 vs 4:3 ratio. That is bound to have more of an impact on your images than the difference in sensor size.


Yes, exactly. The move from APS-C to m43 for me was a very minor one as far as IQ since I am not a fan of 3:2 and prefer to crop to 5:4. (And I came from Canon APS-C) At 5:4 the already trivial format size difference between APS-C and m43 becomes even less. I would never base a format choice decision on a difference as small as that between APS-C and m43 at my preferred aspect ratio. The vagaries of what the marketplace offers are larger than theoretical differences. Up to 135/FF or down to a 1/1.8 compact is a real difference, but APS-C to m43 is a wash for me.

Back on topic, the NEX-7 looks awesome. If only they would build lenses for it.

Ken



Aug 27, 2011 at 08:39 AM
morpheus2891
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p.18 #12 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


apparently 4x5 is for girlie men ...
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1039290



mh2000 wrote:
"Girlie men" aside, this does a good job of showing how close m43 is to APS, so all the "don't buy m43 when you can buy a NEX" doesn't look so compelling to me in this picture, especially when you compare m43 to a tiny P&S sensor!

Personally, I care way more about girls liking me than worrying about whether or not my gear makes some forum-whore think I'm a "girlie man."





Aug 27, 2011 at 09:43 AM
abam
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p.18 #13 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


another thing i ran across this morning gave me pause:

an E-P2 + 17/2.8 is $499 as of right now on amazon. with the pricing of the latest E-P3/NEX-7/etc offerings, and considering the constellation of compromises that one is making in the first place when one goes system compact, that somehow sounds like a pretty fine value.



Aug 27, 2011 at 09:54 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.18 #14 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


abam NEX-3 with the 18-55 are closing out at $299 at frys

http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.com/2011/08/sony-nex-3-kit-299-half-price.html



Aug 27, 2011 at 10:31 AM
abam
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p.18 #15 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


very, very interesting.


Aug 27, 2011 at 11:02 AM
millsart
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p.18 #16 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Always fun to see illustrations like that and they do put things into perspective.

What I think would be fun, and that I've thought of trying to make before, isn't just something showing relative sensor size and resolution, but something also showing the average typical end usage size for a given user.

I know that for me, professional work aside, honestly 99% of what I'm shooting for personal pleasure is just 1400 web sized images max, and a majority is never really even seeing that as its going on Facebook, emails etc downsized even more. I'm just not really making big prints or anything these days. No room on the walls for them etc.

I think a lot of people probably fall into that group as well. Back when I was something of a serious amateur musician I remember so many people always wanting or thinking they needed the big 4x12" guitar loudspeaker enclosures. Things could put out 140dB and looked cool sitting in the corner of your apt (girls dig guitar players right?) but unless your actually playing decent sized venues your never cranking it up. Your playing it at volume level 1 in your apt and still getting guy next door banging on the wall.

Its often a case of what I think is theoretically cool to say you can do, vs what you actually do, do.

I've certainly been down that road before. When I had my m9 for example, I really did like the shooting experience, which was part of it, but also I liked the IQ and thinking of what I could do with such great output.

Know what though ? $20k or so into it and never actually made a single print from the camera. I put stuff on the web, lots of 100% crops showing how impressive it is, but no real world output.

It was really the same as my $2000 handwired 100 watt all tube powered guitar amp and half stack sitting in the corner. Looked cool, sounded great when you could turn it up, but the reality was I'd either use it as min levels or use a software modeling amp which actually worked better at apt levels.

What I did get to enjoy in though was talking shop with other people about speaker choices, differences in old russian vs chinese made EL34 vacuum tubes and how they changed the sound etc. Fun stuff sure, but in regards to actual need for that type of SPL level I could generate ? Far from it.

Do I own a 4x5 Toyo Carbon Fiber field camera still ? Yes I do

Have I gotten drum scans done from the negatives and poured over the resolution, posted comparison images and 100% crops all over the web etc ? Sure did

Did I get all excited about what amazing 40X60" prints I could make with it and how good they'd look ? Of course

But is there a single shot from it on my walls ? Hanging in a gallery somewhere etc ? Nope, not one.

Its totally potential coming before actual output needs.


Thats how after spending lots of money and trying lots of different things (fun, dont get me wrong) I was able to go back to m4/3.

Because whenever I'd find myself looking at the images at 100%, pulling up old files of the same subjects from my NEX, X100, X1, M9, K5 etc and trying to compare the shots I found that I could now tell myself "wait a minute, what are you going to do with these files?"

Then I remember that 99% are going to be web output and when all are scaled down to 1100 pixels wide most all of those things I was obsessing over stop mattering.

I can simply pick the system that I enjoys shooting the most because IQ in a sense really doesn't matter so much when I look at my real world context for it.

morpheus2891 wrote:
apparently 4x5 is for girlie men ...
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1039290






Aug 27, 2011 at 12:54 PM
tomrock
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p.18 #17 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


millsart wrote:
Always fun to see illustrations like that ...


You've hit the nail on the head!!



Aug 27, 2011 at 01:19 PM
denoir
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p.18 #18 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Jeff, those are all valid arguments, but there's a dimension missing: time. A current camera that is more than enough for 1400px wide web shots on the current generation of monitors may not be so in a couple of years. Printing is a very developed technology and high quality prints are 300 dpi or even more. Computer displays are not yet there.

I made a post about it a while ago in another thread, illustrated with historical examples. Here's a cross post of it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's one thing we haven't mentioned in these discussions and that is the problem of future proofing your images.

Even if you don't print large and mostly look at photos on your computer there's no avoiding the facts that monitor resolutions increase over time. Today's monitors are actually rather poor in terms of PPI (pixels per inch) and they will definitely improve - as they have been improving. A standard display (24", 1920x1200) has ~95 PPI while an iphone 4 has about 330 PPI. That means that a 24" monitor with the pixel density of the phone would have a resolution of 6720x4200 (=27 megapixel).

Now, the highest resolution small format cameras on the market are the Nikon D3X and the Sony Alpha 900 - both with ~24.5 megapixel. So you couldn't even cover a 24" high res screen with one. And because those cameras have hefty AA filters you don't want to look at an image at 100% (of course at 330 ppi it may not be as much of a problem). In reality if you really want max per pixel sharpness which and roughly the same resolving power as the 24 megapixel beasts you'll have to go for the 18 megapixel Leica M9 - which doesn't come close to covering the needed 6720x4200 pixels. So your choice today if you want to look at your images in full screen on a 24" monitor a couple of years from now is to future proof your shots by using a medium format digital back.

If this sounds silly, let's take a walk down the memory lane:

The year is 2001 and I've bought my first digital camera - an Olympus C2. It's a 2 megapixel point and shoot. It wasn't a terribly expensive or advanced camera - I was a student with very limited funds and little interest in photography. However, it wasn't cheap either. Digital photography was relatively new and even P&S cameras were rather expensive. You could probably get a good m4/3 kit for that money today.

Today, 10 years later, I'd like to share a picture with you, web sized. Will it work? Is the image quality good enough for a web sized shot (1200px wide as I usually post):

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_oly_web.jpg

Err...no. That looks pretty awful. So I've got a bunch of images that are not really usable today unless I want to look at them in thumbnail size. Not a massive loss as I wasn't particularly interested in photography back then but still, there are pictures of friends & family that would have been nice to be able to look at today.

The year is 2004. I got myself a brand new camera, the Konica-Minolta Dimage Z3. The megapixels have doubled to an impressive 4 megapixel. It's not a P&S but a bridge camera and I love it. It sparks my first interest in photography. It's a great camera and produces really nice colors. I still have very fond memories of it.

Can I share a web sized picture today?


http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_z3_web.jpg

No, unfortunately not. And this time I'm not happy about it. I've got some nice shots with it that are unfortunately unusable because of the low image quality. Back then when I had a 1024px wide 17" monitor it was no problem, but today on a 1920x1200 - not to mention a 2560x1440 monitor it's just unusable.

The year is 2005. I got my next camera, a Canon 350D. Again the pixels are doubled. That camera managed to kill my interest in photography before it really started - primarily because I didn't know how to use it. I had no idea about aperture or any other technical stuff. The Z3 was far easier to use as it had live view and exposure simulation. But I digress.... By then I had a 1600px wide 19" monitor and the 350D provided enough quality for that. And the 350D was my camera until late 2009 when I got a 7D. Initially I used the 7D for video only and actually kept using the 350D until early 2010.

Can I share a web sized picture today from the 350D today?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/A_350d_web.jpg

Yes, that sort of works, doesn't it? Ok, it could be much better, but we're at an level of what we might call 'acceptable' quality. And I've got nearly five years worth of pictures taken with this camera.

How future proof is it?

Well, let's look at a 100% crop - the full image is 3456 pixels wide:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop.jpg

Usable at this size? No. The quality is considerable worse than the resized image.

What about 1920px? I have two 1920x1200 monitors hooked up to my workstation at home. Could I get a full screen image with sufficient quality?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop_1920.jpg

Again, no. It's not as good as the 1200px image.

What about 1600px?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_350D_crop_1600.jpg

Alright, that's better. If I resize the image to 1600px width, then I get an acceptable image quality.

Now, what do I get with a high end modern system like a Leica M9? Here's the full scene, resized to 1200px of the same subject with the same angle of view:

http://peltarion.eu/img/m9/zm35-15.jpg

The M9 is an 18 megapixel camera which outputs 5212x3468 images. How do things look at 100%?

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/B_m9_crop.jpg

I'd call that acceptable. It's not perfect but I would have no problem using it as is. That gives me a future proofing until we've got monitors that can do > 5212 pixels in horizontal resolution.

There's more to it though - the increase in future resolution is not unlimited. There is an optical limit after which we can't distinguish two pixels. Where that limit is depends on viewing distance, visual acuity and so on, but the limit that is usually quoted is around 300ppi at medium close viewing distances (~0.5 meters). You can look at this for a further discussion on the resolution limit topic.

So, as far as the future proofing goes, I know that as long as I have a technically well executed image (no more blur than desired) and I have not cropped it, I can view it full screen on a monitors with 300ppi up to a size of ~21". Sure, it's not 24" or larger, but it still isn't thumbnail sized. So I can be certain that my images are future proof - even though I may not have the need for that full image quality right now.

My NEX-C3 on the other hand is far less future proof. I need to resize it's 16 megapixel image to about 8 megapixels before I get the same per pixel quality as the M9. This gives a max horizontal resolution of ~3400 px which in turn means that once we have 300 ppi monitors I'll be able to see the images in full quality on a monitor no larger than ~12"-15".

The point of all this is that even though a camera might fulfill your needs right now as far as image quality goes, that estimate probably won't hold forever. You may find yourself with photos with simply insufficient image quality to work on higher resolution monitors - as happened to my Z3 pictures. This is unfortunately the largest I can post/view before the image starts falling apart and the low IQ becomes distracting:


http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/future/C_z3.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------------

There followed a discussion where people raised many good points, but the bottom line is that we're basically at a pivotal moment in camera resolution right now. A camera like the 50 megapixel Pentax 645D is future proof for digital display on large monitors. An M9 or a D3X is almost but not quite there if you want to display things in full screen on monitors in the 24-30" range in the same resolution as you get in print. All the NEX cameras (with the possible exception of the NEX-7) fall below that limit as do all current m4/3 cameras.

For those that primarily print it makes no difference - we already have high res print today and if you can print a 20X30" print today, you can probably do it in 100 years as well.





Aug 27, 2011 at 01:22 PM
douglasf13
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p.18 #19 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


millsart wrote:
Always fun to see illustrations like that and they do put things into perspective.

What I think would be fun, and that I've thought of trying to make before, isn't just something showing relative sensor size and resolution, but something also showing the average typical end usage size for a given user.

I know that for me, professional work aside, honestly 99% of what I'm shooting for personal pleasure is just 1400 web sized images max, and a majority is never really even seeing that as its going on Facebook, emails etc downsized even more. I'm just not really making big
...Show more

I can relate, Millsart. I used to play all of the venues in Hollywood/LA 10 years ago with 100watt non-master volume Marshall heads and multiple 4x12s, and to make things worse, so did the other guitar player in my band at the time! Even in the bigger theaters, there was never a justification for it, and my hearing and back will probably eventually pay for it. It took quite a decline in ego to realize that my Bogner head on a closed back 2x12 was more than enough for most venues (although I do miss that insane stage volume, sometimes.)

I find that I tend to follow the same pattern with all of my interests and the corresponding gear. I go overboard, buy way too much, and then slowly whittle things down into a select few pieces of equipment that I actually use the heck out of. Millsart's post hits home with me, because I used to have a music store's worth of guitars and amps wasting time, money and space in my house, but I now I just have a few guitars and amps that get the work done.

The NEX cameras have become the end game of my camera spend-athon, too, and I'm working on cleaning out the lens closet so that I have just a few key lenses, because I find that, in my case, too much choice often leaves my wheels spinning, and I'd rather spend more time printing photos, rather than talking about them.

The main reason I went with NEX over m4/3 is simply because I was going to use adapted, manual lenses, and I wanted my 35mm lenses to become 50mm equivalents, rather than 70mm, because that has a tangible effect on my shooting. IQ-wise, I'm sure I'd have been fine with either, once the ink hit the paper.





Aug 27, 2011 at 01:41 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.18 #20 · Sony A77 & A65 & Nex-7 Announcements Today


Great post denoir, that 100% m9 crop is very compelling.


Aug 27, 2011 at 02:11 PM
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