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Archive 2011 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount

  
 
carstenw
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p.9 #1 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


Exactly.


Sep 22, 2011 at 04:34 AM
Antje
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p.9 #2 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


EOS20 wrote:
Dpreview Sample Photos:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092210nikonj1samplesgallery.asp



Urgh. That doesn't look too nice.



Sep 22, 2011 at 04:52 AM
carstenw
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p.9 #3 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


zhangyue wrote:
Because they are mirrorless cameras and price them that way, are they?


What is more important, a forum label, or the target market?

In the end, people moving up from P&S cameras do not compare feature lists the same way we do, and may reach very different conclusions for different reasons. The m4/3 and NEX cameras are chameleons, disguising as easy cameras but with huge depth. The operation and controls of many of the models reflect this, and they are way above normal people, aimed solidly at the enthusiast market. I mean, some of these cameras have tilt&shift modes! Try explaining that to a normal person.

The Nikon 1 system, on the other hand, removes much of this complexity, and shows less, combined with some tangible benefits for those moving up, such as exchangeable lenses and high speed. It focuses more solidly on the knowledge that an average person has of a camera, i.e. almost nothing. Turn on, push one or two buttons, shoot. It tries to aim the modes at things that a normal person might want to do, instead of adding a million modes for all sorts of weird things.

Honestly, I don't know why P&S cameras were ever so slow, everyone hates that. Nikon has recognized this and made a fast camera aimed at, to take a stereotype, soccer moms, and other perfectly normal people leading normal lives who can take advantage of this speed, without needing a Nikon D3s.

To repeat myself, I think Nikon has shown very clean thinking with this camera, and if they can market it correctly, they will quite possibly clean up. People have shown a willingness to pay this kind of money for a good camera.

---

Another point repeatedly made here which also demonstrates how focused we are at gazing at our navels is that since m4/3 and NEX exist, and have larger sensors, Nikon should do the same.

If you think about it for a very short time with a clear head, you will realize that Olympus and Panasonic have nothing to lose, having no DSLR range with larger sensors, and Sony is transitioning their DSLR range to SLT and NEX cameras with a great deal of compatibility.

Nikon has a very successful and profitable line of DSLRs, from the D3100 all the way to the best FF DSLR ever made, the D3x. It would make no sense for them to announce a new line of cameras which would overlap significantly with this strategy, causing confusion in the market and possible cannibalization due to poor positioning.

There is nothing holy or magical about the APS-C mirrorless, and the 2.7x crop is perfectly viable. It has some advantages and some disadvantages compared to the m4/3 and NEX lines.

Personally, I find the more interesting NEX cameras to be too close to my D3 in capability and IQ, while not reaching it, so they make little sense to me. I am not looking to replace my D3, but to augment it. The Nikon 1 is quite an interesting system, and I am happy to see Nikon introduce a new system like this with no holds barred, i.e. fast processing, high shooting rates, quality construction, and so on. Compare this to a lower end m4/3 like the E-PL3 or the NEX-C3, and the Nikon starts to look quite attractive.

---

As an aside, there is a diagram in this month's Foto Magazin (Germany) comparing sensor sizes, and I was surprised to see how close m4/3 is to APS-C. Listening to the IQ hubbub around here, you would think that APS-C was 10x larger. Not so.



Sep 22, 2011 at 04:57 AM
wickerprints
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p.9 #4 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


I'm sorry, I just don't buy that reasoning. It's precisely because Nikon has a significant DSLR market share that they *should* design a compact mirrorless body with an APS-C sensor. That way, users will be motivated to buy into the system to start with, knowing that whatever lenses they buy can be used if they want to move up. There are way more AF-S DX and FX lenses available, they're not all expensive (the 50/1.8G is $220, cheaper than the 10/2.8 for the Nikon 1!), and you get all the image quality goodness.

In other words, I believe that rather than cannibalizing DSLR sales, with a DX compact camera, Nikon can lure *more* people into the F-mount, which at the end of the day, is the heart of their camera business. People might only have one or two bodies, but with any interchangeable system, they always end up buying several lenses. That's what the system idea is for.

If a novice is just wanting a step up from a P&S and is considering the Nikon 1, then by your own reasoning, they weren't going to buy a DSLR anyway. So it doesn't make sense that these consumers are being drawn away from the DSLR market; they're coming from the P&S market, and if you really want a long-term strategy to get their money, you should get them hooked on lenses that will be interchangeable with the DSLR line. Conversely, those existing DSLR users that already have F-mount lenses are now thinking, "hey, I could buy a new compact DX sensor body to take with me if my DSLR is too big!" And Nikon profits off them too.

Don't you see how it makes no sense to design a whole new 2.7x crop format in an already crowded field? Nikon has to invest resources to design a whole new family of 1-mount optics, then keep up with the fast pace of camera body development from Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus, not to mention compete in the P&S market against Canon, and then do all this while innovating in the DSLR market. The result is overpriced, underpowered, and with very little assurance that this will become a long-standing system, unlike 135 format, APS-C, and 4/3rds.



Sep 22, 2011 at 05:45 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.9 #5 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


Nikon is probably trying this out to see what sticks.

They're going to try to emulate what Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus did.

Cheaper camera in multiple colors for everyone. More expensive camera with more features and in pro colors for possibly serious enthusiasts.

Honestly, given the success of the XZ-1 which is a $500 camera, I don't see the market seeing a $650 camera with changeable lenses as a big hurdle.



Sep 22, 2011 at 06:29 AM
carstenw
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p.9 #6 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


wickerprints wrote:
users will be motivated to buy into the system to start with, knowing that whatever lenses they buy can be used if they want to move up.


I think we can immediately remove this as a good argument, without much difficulty. If you buy mirrorless lenses, they cannot be used moving up to the full system, for example NEX -> A mount. No one is going to want to buy huge DSLR lenses for NEX, just in case they move up later. Have you seen the Sony 85/1.4 on a NEX with adapter? What a monstrosity that is.

No, this just makes no sense at all. Besides, how many people buy one system yet plan to go to another? A vast minority. Most of us think that the system we are buying right now will be the last one, and this is probably even more prevalent among relative novices. I could imagine that a few people in this forum plan that way, but very very few.

Don't you see how it makes no sense to design a whole new 2.7x crop format in an already crowded field?

I have already addressed this point in my previous post. Please read it again, and a bit slower this time. There is no crowded field. Nikon (think they have) spotted a new positioning for the Nikon 1. A decent step up from high-end compacts, but below APS-C cameras in size, cost and complexity.



Sep 22, 2011 at 07:56 AM
carstenw
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p.9 #7 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


FlyPenFly wrote:
Nikon is probably trying this out to see what sticks.


Well, no, I don't think so. Sony is more trying to see what will stick. They now think they have spotted a place and are betting the farm on NEX and SLT cameras with APS-C sensors. Nikon has done a lot of waiting and planning, and are aiming very directly at a new 'tween segment.

They're going to try to emulate what Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus did.

Specifically not.

Honestly, given the success of the XZ-1 which is a $500 camera, I don't see the market seeing a $650 camera with changeable lenses as a big hurdle.

Do you mean "step up" instead of "hurdle"? The sensor is much larger, and will give much better quality. The speed is also much better, and it is a system camera. So although you are right that the J1+kit lens is a modest step up in some ways (but not IQ), as a system, it is a huge step up.



Sep 22, 2011 at 07:59 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.9 #8 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


The more I look at this new Nikon system, the more it brings back memories of the Pentax 110 SLR system from the seventies.

http://www.cameraquest.com/pentx110.htm

Seriously though, there are some very interesting, new cutting edge sounding technologies going on within these cameras. The overall speed, responsiveness and dual AF in particular sounds quite amazing if we are to believe what Nikon states. To me, if nothing else, this camera appears to be a "test bed" for technologies which will eventually find their way into more serious offerings from Nikon in both their DSLR's and future mirrorless systems.

As far as this system actually finding a large enough market for success with the highly cost conscious P&S crowd, I would bet it's going to be a huge FAIL for all the reasons thus stated in this thread.



Sep 22, 2011 at 08:31 AM
carstenw
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p.9 #9 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


Tariq Gibran wrote:
As far as this system actually finding a large enough market for success with the highly cost conscious P&S crowd, I would bet it's going to be a huge FAIL for all the reasons thus stated in this thread.


Well, although the P&S crowd is cost conscious, by the time the limitations of a P&S come sharply into focus, they are much less cost conscious and take a conscious step up in price to get the better quality. Nikon is betting that the Nikon 1 is the right size step in price and quality, and I think they may be right.

Most of the reasons in this thread are from the point of view of mid- to high-end enthusiasts, and are thus irrelevant to the target market. It is not people like us who will decide the success or failure of this system.



Sep 22, 2011 at 08:59 AM
sebboh
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p.9 #10 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


carstenw wrote:
I have already addressed this point in my previous post. Please read it again, and a bit slower this time. There is no crowded field. Nikon (think they have) spotted a new positioning for the Nikon 1. A decent step up from high-end compacts, but below APS-C cameras in size, cost and complexity.


i fail to see how the nikon 1 is less complex, less expensive, or smaller than the NEX-C3 or E-PL3? maybe good marketing and the nikon brand name will convince people though.



Sep 22, 2011 at 10:23 AM
carstenw
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p.9 #11 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


I guess to be picky, the J1 is not cheaper than the C3/E-PL3, but it has a higher end processing unit, so although the sensor is smaller, the rest of the camera is higher end. In that sense it is cheaper. About reduced complexity, I am surmising this from the interface of the camera and the dpreview preview. The NEX is a very complex camera, no question. A proper comparison to the menu system of the E-PL3 will have to follow.


Sep 22, 2011 at 10:38 AM
Joseph Marney
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p.9 #12 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


I'm wondering what the reaction here would be like if it were priced around $350-$400?

I think it's more the price than anything that forces these cameras to be compared to higher end mirrorless cameras. And in pretty much every way the Nikon 1 series will loose that comparison.

Also, sample images on dpreview...yuck.



Sep 22, 2011 at 11:24 AM
sebboh
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p.9 #13 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


carstenw wrote:
I guess to be picky, the J1 is not cheaper than the C3/E-PL3, but it has a higher end processing unit, so although the sensor is smaller, the rest of the camera is higher end. In that sense it is cheaper. About reduced complexity, I am surmising this from the interface of the camera and the dpreview preview. The NEX is a very complex camera, no question. A proper comparison to the menu system of the E-PL3 will have to follow.


i don't think the higher end processing unit will mean anything to the p&s upgrader and i doubt it will feel any better built from the preview. the NEX is only a complex camera if you want to do things a p&s upgrader won't want to do. otherwise the interface is stupidly simple especially for people used to cell phone and p&s cameras. the E-PL3 is basically the same but with a few more buttons.



Sep 22, 2011 at 11:45 AM
mh2000
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p.9 #14 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


the ones I looked at here look ok for what they are... certainly no brilliant photography, but even up to ISO 800 looks usable after some PP.

I'm not interested in the camera for myself, but looks ok to me.

Antje wrote:
Urgh. That doesn't look too nice.




Sep 22, 2011 at 12:33 PM
zhangyue
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p.9 #15 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


Joseph Marney wrote:
I'm wondering what the reaction here would be like if it were priced around $350-$400?.


Good question. For $500, I won't buy it but I can see the potential market. It will take over high end P&S market. Nobody will complain/worry Nikon as much now.

BUT, they are not. For over $800 and up to $1200, I think major market droped that kind of money will buy DSLR for performance. Or NEX and M4/3 for both performance and size weight, coolness. Once you consider all those accessories. (a couple of hundred here and there) this is not really a P&S crowd friendly product, and it will not be easy to use for sure.

Again, I fail to see this will be a success.




Sep 22, 2011 at 12:40 PM
bkwphoto
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p.9 #16 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


I think that if it is aimed at the compact upgrader that the 10mp was a bad choice.

Who's going to upgrade their (12 mp or more) compact to a more expensive camera with only 10 mp. I don't think it even hits it's targret crowd.



Sep 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM
dimitris77
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p.9 #17 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


I saw the new launch online and I cant help but think what was Nikon really thinking launching something like that. Pretty disappointed really. If you want a cheap camera you can always buy a point and shot or use your smartphone.


Sep 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM
wickerprints
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p.9 #18 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


wickerprints wrote:
users will be motivated to buy into the system to start with, knowing that whatever lenses they buy can be used if they want to move up.

Don't you see how it makes no sense to design a whole new 2.7x crop format in an already crowded field?

carstenw wrote:
I think we can immediately remove this as a good argument, without much difficulty. If you buy mirrorless lenses, they cannot be used moving up to the full system, for example NEX -> A mount. No one is going to want to buy huge DSLR lenses for NEX, just in case they move up later. Have you seen the Sony 85/1.4 on a NEX with adapter? What a monstrosity that is.


If anyone has been reading too quickly, it would be you. I didn't say mirrorless-only lenses could be used on a DSLR. I'm saying people have the option to buy existing DX and FX lenses to use on a DX-format compact system, whereas with a 2.7x crop, the change in angle of view makes everything telephoto. The bottom line is that by preserving the sensor format, you maintain interoperability, whereas Nikon now has to sell people on a whole new set of lenses, which if they buy into, will not encourage them to move up to DSLRs later on. At least with a DX sensor, they have a chance to buy with a future mindset--maybe get a DX kit lens, and a small FX prime like a 50/1.8G.

You say nobody wants to buy huge DSLR lenses for NEX, but have you even looked at the Nikon 1 lenses? They're not that small, aside from the 10/2.8 prime. And not all DSLR lenses are huge. You just happened to pick a lens that's big because it's a short telephoto f/1.4 design. It would still need to be big even if the sensor were smaller.

No, this just makes no sense at all. Besides, how many people buy one system yet plan to go to another? A vast minority. Most of us think that the system we are buying right now will be the last one, and this is probably even more prevalent among relative novices. I could imagine that a few people in this forum plan that way, but very very few.

Who are you to say that? You think you speak for all consumers, or even the majority of them? If people only intend to buy one last camera, then why is it that so many of them are always buying the next great thing to come out?

A decent step up from high-end compacts, but below APS-C cameras in size, cost and complexity.

That's the problem all along. It isn't cheaper. $750 for a zoom lens, $650 for a basic low-end kit, $900 for the high-end kit, $150 each for a flash, GPS, video microphone...it's certainly no cheaper than the NEX or the micro 4/3rds system. Even DX DSLRs can be had at the prices they're asking for Nikon 1.

As for operation complexity, don't fool yourself. Nikon has made the 1 system simple by gutting the option to control the camera, whereas all the other systems have the controls if you need them, but the auto mode is still there if you can't handle it. Every modern camera has an auto mode. It's a camera, not rocket science. You have to be pretty rock stupid to not know how to turn the mode to auto and press the shutter button.

And as for size, the Nikon 1 has got your smaller sensor but the camera is not any smaller for it compared to the micro 4/3rds bodies. All the drawbacks with none of the claimed advantages. That's what this system represents, and the way you seem to be touting these imagined benefits indicates to me that you've decided to like it not on its merits, but on your need to like it.

I have made this abundantly clear in other posts about this system: I would be the first in line to champion Nikon if they design a system that was competitive in this market segment. It would have to offer excellent value to the consumer without holding them back. I dislike the success of Sony's NEX system, despite respecting what they were able to do from a technological perspective. I would love to see Nikon succeed. But after the marketing buzz wears off, people are going to wake up and wonder why they spent thousands of dollars on a system camera that offers them inferior image quality with no upgrade path.



Sep 22, 2011 at 01:21 PM
carstenw
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p.9 #19 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount




If anyone has been reading too quickly, it would be you. I didn't say mirrorless-only lenses could be used on a DSLR. I'm saying people have the option to buy existing DX and FX lenses to use on a DX-format compact system


Goodbye. [HIDE ME] *click*



Sep 22, 2011 at 02:19 PM
carstenw
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p.9 #20 · update! Nikons mirrorless lens mount


sebboh wrote:
i don't think the higher end processing unit will mean anything to the p&s upgrader and i doubt it will feel any better built from the preview. the NEX is only a complex camera if you want to do things a p&s upgrader won't want to do. otherwise the interface is stupidly simple especially for people used to cell phone and p&s cameras. the E-PL3 is basically the same but with a few more buttons.


The higher end processing unit means snappiness in operation and speed, 12 fps and high-speed video. Those things can certainly be sold to anyone frustrated with the sluggishness of a P&S, so I guess I have to fundamentally disagree with that.

Recall that these cameras are meant to appeal to someone who wants something better than a P&S. The Nikon 1 system has a much larger sensor than a P&S, and so the benefit to IQ is there. Sure, there is always more and better, all the way to medium format digital, but the cost and size quickly become prohibitive. The Nikon 1 has high-speed video and 12 fps, so the comparison is already tricky there.

What is more important to someone moving up from a P&S, fast operation and high-speed shooting, or a larger sensor with better high ISO? Some will go one way, some the other. The size and weight battle is won by the Nikon 1 for most P&S upgrades, so there is another factor.

There are definitely reasons for choosing the Nikon 1, and not everyone has ultimate IQ or flexibility as a priority. Put it another way, why buy a NEX when you could buy a D3x and get more quality? Same reason. Everyone steps out of the rat race at some point and choose their compromise.

Anyway, the theory of all of this can be argued forever, since we all have different ways to look at it. My point is that it doesn't have to make sense to us to be a success. Let's see what happens.



Sep 22, 2011 at 02:41 PM
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