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Archive 2011Fungus in lens
p.1 #1Fungus in lens
I recently purchased a rare Takumar 85/1.8 on eBay. The seller is in the UK and the listing says it's a superb lens. It finally arrived yesterday, and upon inspection, I found there was a lot of fungus in the rear element. I immedialy took some pictures and put the lens back to the original package. When I contacted the seller, I noted that he did not take any returns, so I opened a dispute case on eBay.
Any experience of similar issues? I would like to return it for a full refund. What are the odds to have the seller cover return shipping as well? Is this going to be a long battle? I would like to get this resolved asap.
Any tips would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Any experience of similar issues? I would like to return it for a full refund. What are the odds to have the seller cover return shipping as well? Is this going to be a long battle? I would like to get this resolved asap.
Any tips would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
May 27, 2011 at 08:43 AM
p.1 #2Fungus in lens
The normal resolution for this would be for you to pay to return it. The seller will then refund the original purchase price plus the cost of shipping it to you. Once this has occurred, the case is automatically closed. Make sure to use a delivery method that includes delivery confirmation. You don't necessarily need a signature and tracking, just proof that it was delivered to the seller's registered address. If the seller doesn't make the refund after a certain time, and you have proof of delivery, eBay will refund the money (undoubtably through PayPal), and go after the seller for recompense.
OTOH, as this is an "as is" sale, then I'm not quite sure how it will go down. If you state that the lens has a serious problem that was not described, then eBay will probably force the seller to take it back.
Every step of the process has definite time limits. The seller now has a certain amount of time to respond. If he doesn't, then the case will probably be decided in your favour. You should be able to find information on these times in the correspondence thta started with filing the dispute, or in the help pages. There will be time limits for your input as well. Don't let them slip, or the case will be dropped.
OTOH, as this is an "as is" sale, then I'm not quite sure how it will go down. If you state that the lens has a serious problem that was not described, then eBay will probably force the seller to take it back.
Every step of the process has definite time limits. The seller now has a certain amount of time to respond. If he doesn't, then the case will probably be decided in your favour. You should be able to find information on these times in the correspondence thta started with filing the dispute, or in the help pages. There will be time limits for your input as well. Don't let them slip, or the case will be dropped.
May 27, 2011 at 09:34 AM
p.1 #3Fungus in lens
How easy it will be to get the seller to accept the return depends on how much the item's actual condition deviates from the described condition.
For future purchases, always check whether the seller accepts returns, and under which terms.
For future purchases, always check whether the seller accepts returns, and under which terms.
May 27, 2011 at 09:43 AM
p.1 #4Fungus in lens
Well you may have an issue if you re-read the ebay listing, your taking the word "superb" out of context. The listing doesn't say the lens is in superb condition but rather says "It is a superb lens for fast,candid photography", meaning this generic model not this specific lens. No where in the listing does the seller describe the condition of the lens and so you may have an issue here because it is an "as is- no return" sale. You could be screwed, however the seller has 246 sales with a 100% satisfaction ratings. Hope things work out but you really need to be considerably more careful particularly with international transactions.
Dave
Dave
May 27, 2011 at 10:05 AM
p.1 #5Fungus in lens
Thank you guys. Really appreciate your patience with my newness, your friendly reminders, and explanation of the process.
What bothered me most is that the fungus condition, which is a serious problem, was not disclosed in the listing. I would not have made the move had there been any disclosure, in words or pictures, about this condition. Since there was no description of the condition of the lens, how can I prove that "the item's actual condition deviates from the described condition"?
Still waiting to hear back from the seller...
Thanks!
What bothered me most is that the fungus condition, which is a serious problem, was not disclosed in the listing. I would not have made the move had there been any disclosure, in words or pictures, about this condition. Since there was no description of the condition of the lens, how can I prove that "the item's actual condition deviates from the described condition"?
Still waiting to hear back from the seller...
Thanks!
May 27, 2011 at 11:12 AM
p.1 #6Fungus in lens
Fungus is definitely something which should be described. The absence of mention of this horrible condition would normally implicitly mean that it was not present. I would ask the guy kindly if he will take the lens back before going to eBay and threats.
I presume this is the listing:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Takumar-smc-85mm-f-1-8-screw-lens-K-adapter-/260780680945
I presume this is the listing:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Takumar-smc-85mm-f-1-8-screw-lens-K-adapter-/260780680945
May 27, 2011 at 11:18 AM
p.1 #7Fungus in lens
If fungus has not damaged the coating by eating into it, it should be a trivial repair to have it cleaned, and the lens won't suffer from it. You might want to get an estimate from a repairman and ask the seller if he can cover it. It will be cheaper for both parties, and you'll still have the lens.
May 27, 2011 at 12:23 PM
p.1 #8Fungus in lens
The problem is that not everyone who sells lenses knows much about lenses...
May 27, 2011 at 01:42 PM
p.1 #9Fungus in lens
sxgva wrote:
Since there was no description of the condition of the lens, how can I prove that "the item's actual condition deviates from the described condition"?
Your original post says the says the seller described the item for sale as a "superb lens." While this isn't a highly technical and nuanced description of condition, it certainly excludes severe defects like obvious fungus.
Since there was no description of the condition of the lens, how can I prove that "the item's actual condition deviates from the described condition"?
Your original post says the says the seller described the item for sale as a "superb lens." While this isn't a highly technical and nuanced description of condition, it certainly excludes severe defects like obvious fungus.
May 27, 2011 at 01:50 PM
p.1 #10Fungus in lens
Look at the item specifics:
Used: An item that has been previously used. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or an item that has been returned to the seller after a period of use. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.
A lens with fungus is not an item with "some signs of cosmetic wear", neither is "fully operational" or "functions as intended".
In addition, the seller failed in a "description of any imperfections".
Your should be on the save side with a complaint.
Used: An item that has been previously used. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or an item that has been returned to the seller after a period of use. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.
A lens with fungus is not an item with "some signs of cosmetic wear", neither is "fully operational" or "functions as intended".
In addition, the seller failed in a "description of any imperfections".
Your should be on the save side with a complaint.
May 27, 2011 at 01:52 PM
p.1 #11Fungus in lens
ludoo wrote:
If fungus has not damaged the coating by eating into it, it should be a trivial repair to have it cleaned, and the lens won't suffer from it.
Yes, but... Over the past ten years, I've had eight to ten lenses cleaned by my favorite professional camera repair shop to remove fungus. About half of them turned out fine, and half did not, as there was permanent damage. My average cost for doing this (for older manual focus Alt lenses) is about $75 per lens. I picked up three lenses last week that had been recently worked on for exactly this purpose - two had permanent damage. Perhaps you noticed a recent thread on buying a dry cabinet - that was me. I think there's a good chance that I get a substantial discount for this type of work, as I can be pretty clumsy. Repeat customer.
Anyway, assuming Carsten linked the correct auction (I think it's a safe assumption, as this is a rare lens, and it says "The seller will not accept returns for this item", as mentioned by the OP), then he paid a premium price, that's appropriate for a copy in mint condition. A lens with noticeable fungus is 'bargain' at best, 'ugly' in reality, and 'garbage' in many cases. I'd hold out for a full refund of purchase price and cost of original shipping.
Chalk up the expense for sending it back to the seller as the cost of an important lesson. You could have asked something like "Please tell me more about the lens optical condition. Are there any scratches, marks or rubs on the glass? Is the inside of the lens clean and clear?" Make no assumptions. If an online seller doesn't say what you need to know, then ask.
If fungus has not damaged the coating by eating into it, it should be a trivial repair to have it cleaned, and the lens won't suffer from it.
Yes, but... Over the past ten years, I've had eight to ten lenses cleaned by my favorite professional camera repair shop to remove fungus. About half of them turned out fine, and half did not, as there was permanent damage. My average cost for doing this (for older manual focus Alt lenses) is about $75 per lens. I picked up three lenses last week that had been recently worked on for exactly this purpose - two had permanent damage. Perhaps you noticed a recent thread on buying a dry cabinet - that was me. I think there's a good chance that I get a substantial discount for this type of work, as I can be pretty clumsy. Repeat customer.
Anyway, assuming Carsten linked the correct auction (I think it's a safe assumption, as this is a rare lens, and it says "The seller will not accept returns for this item", as mentioned by the OP), then he paid a premium price, that's appropriate for a copy in mint condition. A lens with noticeable fungus is 'bargain' at best, 'ugly' in reality, and 'garbage' in many cases. I'd hold out for a full refund of purchase price and cost of original shipping.
Chalk up the expense for sending it back to the seller as the cost of an important lesson. You could have asked something like "Please tell me more about the lens optical condition. Are there any scratches, marks or rubs on the glass? Is the inside of the lens clean and clear?" Make no assumptions. If an online seller doesn't say what you need to know, then ask.
May 27, 2011 at 02:35 PM
p.1 #12Fungus in lens
I feel your pain.
I found an Zuiko 100/2.0 a while back and even with asking questions and seeing pics of front & rear elements ... the lens had a 'chip' in an INTERNAL element. Fortunately for me, the seller took the lens back without much hassle (but admitted he intentionally did not disclose it, because the person that he bought it from didn't dislcose it to him) and I didn't have to go the Ebay dispute route.
I always want to see front & rear glass, and get a 'funny' feeling whenever someone doesn't show both ... i.e. they're either trying to hide something, or they simply aren't aware how important the rear element is. Either way, it raises the caution flag, and prompts a request for more pics and some questions to veryify its condition.
NOTE: I bought my last lens from Adorama without seeing the rear element (Zuiko 18/3.5), but I had in writing from them that the glass was optically perfect and that I could return it 100% (less shipping) if I didn't like it. Of course, KEH doesn't show elements either, but likewise has an excellent return policy.
We've probably all had a story or two (but you learn quick). I hope this works out well for you.
BTW ... with 15 different bidders and "NO QUESTIONS" asked, likely the other bidders also keyed in on the word "SUPERB" (which drove up the price, I'm sure) ... so I'd easily suggest that the listing was DEFINITELY INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING ... with the listing image hiding the obvious defect.
Good Luck.
I found an Zuiko 100/2.0 a while back and even with asking questions and seeing pics of front & rear elements ... the lens had a 'chip' in an INTERNAL element. Fortunately for me, the seller took the lens back without much hassle (but admitted he intentionally did not disclose it, because the person that he bought it from didn't dislcose it to him) and I didn't have to go the Ebay dispute route.
I always want to see front & rear glass, and get a 'funny' feeling whenever someone doesn't show both ... i.e. they're either trying to hide something, or they simply aren't aware how important the rear element is. Either way, it raises the caution flag, and prompts a request for more pics and some questions to veryify its condition.
NOTE: I bought my last lens from Adorama without seeing the rear element (Zuiko 18/3.5), but I had in writing from them that the glass was optically perfect and that I could return it 100% (less shipping) if I didn't like it. Of course, KEH doesn't show elements either, but likewise has an excellent return policy.
We've probably all had a story or two (but you learn quick). I hope this works out well for you.
BTW ... with 15 different bidders and "NO QUESTIONS" asked, likely the other bidders also keyed in on the word "SUPERB" (which drove up the price, I'm sure) ... so I'd easily suggest that the listing was DEFINITELY INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING ... with the listing image hiding the obvious defect.
Good Luck.
May 27, 2011 at 04:53 PM
p.1 #13Fungus in lens
Not sure about ebay overseas, but on ebay.com, seller is required to disclose all defects in the listing even if they declare "returns not accepted"
Also, I think you should send it back with signature confirmation, just like what is required for purchase above $250, just to be on the safe side. That will probably mean USPS express...
Also, I think you should send it back with signature confirmation, just like what is required for purchase above $250, just to be on the safe side. That will probably mean USPS express...
May 27, 2011 at 05:40 PM
p.1 #14Fungus in lens
Whether or not the seller accepts returns, they still have an obligation to list the item accurately. I recently won an auction where the seller listed three different Rokkor lenses (fully described with focal length and aperture). When the camera arrived, it contained 3 off brand lenses. When I contacted the seller they basically said "That's what the guy at the estate sale told me they were. Tough luck. I'm sorry." I too have a case open with ebay. Like someone else said, a lot of these sellers have no idea what they are selling. They bought some camera equipment at an estate sale and are selling it on ebay.
I've had great success cleaning fungus myself. The first step is to zap it with UV light to kill the fungus and keep it from spreading to any of your other lenses. I use a $10 black light from Wal-Mart. Then I take the lens apart. Sometimes you can find disassembly instructions on the web, with pictures if your lucky. When I get the problem elements out I soak them in high quality Isopropyl alcohol for about an hour, then wipe clean with Pec Pads. I guess I've been fortunate than none of the ones I've cleaned had damage to the coatings. However, if you haven't ever taken a lens apart, you probably don't want to cut your teeth with this one. I still have a couple laying around that I haven't figured out how to reassemble properly. Taking a lot of pictures is certainly helpful, but I'm lazy.
Either way, wait for a response from ebay before considering any repair. Also, you could try to work it out with the seller while you wait for ebay's verdict. You could send them a quote and ask for a partial refund to cover the cost of repairs. Good luck!
I've had great success cleaning fungus myself. The first step is to zap it with UV light to kill the fungus and keep it from spreading to any of your other lenses. I use a $10 black light from Wal-Mart. Then I take the lens apart. Sometimes you can find disassembly instructions on the web, with pictures if your lucky. When I get the problem elements out I soak them in high quality Isopropyl alcohol for about an hour, then wipe clean with Pec Pads. I guess I've been fortunate than none of the ones I've cleaned had damage to the coatings. However, if you haven't ever taken a lens apart, you probably don't want to cut your teeth with this one. I still have a couple laying around that I haven't figured out how to reassemble properly. Taking a lot of pictures is certainly helpful, but I'm lazy.
Either way, wait for a response from ebay before considering any repair. Also, you could try to work it out with the seller while you wait for ebay's verdict. You could send them a quote and ask for a partial refund to cover the cost of repairs. Good luck!
May 27, 2011 at 09:43 PM
p.1 #15Fungus in lens
Looking at the item and the photo....it seems to show fungus on the rear...is THAT what we're looking at?
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8903/takfngs.jpg
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8903/takfngs.jpg
May 27, 2011 at 09:44 PM
p.1 #16Fungus in lens
Well, concerning repair: two of the three very well reputed repair shops that I used would not let a lens into their workshop. They say it is just to risky that the fungus spreads to other lenses in the shop. Now, how realistic that is I don't know.
I would return it.
I would return it.
May 27, 2011 at 11:47 PM
p.1 #17Fungus in lens
Thank you guys for all your inputs. I was amazed at how you were digging into the issue. Really appreciate your help here.
I did open a case the day I received it, not as a threat (a decent seller should not feel threatened anyways) but more as a request for eBay to facilitate for a solution. They did send me an email with instructions on next steps. I need to wait for 7 days for the seller to respond, before I can escalate it to their resolution center.
It's been 2 days and there still is no response from the seller. I'll keep this thread updated.
Thanks again!
I did open a case the day I received it, not as a threat (a decent seller should not feel threatened anyways) but more as a request for eBay to facilitate for a solution. They did send me an email with instructions on next steps. I need to wait for 7 days for the seller to respond, before I can escalate it to their resolution center.
It's been 2 days and there still is no response from the seller. I'll keep this thread updated.
Thanks again!
May 28, 2011 at 02:24 PM
p.1 #18Fungus in lens
IMO, you should close the case and just get it cleaned - or clean it yourself. His description says:
"It is a superb lens for fast, candid photography"
The single picture shows a pretty gunked up lens and there were no questions asked. Like the others here I do feel your pain tho! Especially £310.00?
That's $520 + Shipping yeah?.
Rokinon 85/1.4 .......... about $220 (new)
Vivitar 85/1.4 ............ about $280 (new)
Samyang 85/1.4 ........ about $370 (new)
Nikkor AI-s 85/1.4 ..... about $400 (used with some dust specs)
CZ Planar T* 85/1.4 ... about $550 (used with some dust specs)
I dunno the going rate for the Takumar but that seems like a lot to me. Is it that good?
"It is a superb lens for fast, candid photography"
The single picture shows a pretty gunked up lens and there were no questions asked. Like the others here I do feel your pain tho! Especially £310.00?
That's $520 + Shipping yeah?. Rokinon 85/1.4 .......... about $220 (new)
Vivitar 85/1.4 ............ about $280 (new)
Samyang 85/1.4 ........ about $370 (new)
Nikkor AI-s 85/1.4 ..... about $400 (used with some dust specs)
CZ Planar T* 85/1.4 ... about $550 (used with some dust specs)
I dunno the going rate for the Takumar but that seems like a lot to me. Is it that good?
May 28, 2011 at 04:11 PM
p.1 #19Fungus in lens
It could be perfect once cleaned, all depends on how long it's been like that.
With the seller stating "no returns" and you asking no questions before sale, IMO it's your error to learn from. That said the seller should have put more effort into describing the items condition more accurately.
Maybe they will pay for cleaning.
Good luck.
With the seller stating "no returns" and you asking no questions before sale, IMO it's your error to learn from. That said the seller should have put more effort into describing the items condition more accurately.
Maybe they will pay for cleaning.
Good luck.
May 28, 2011 at 06:42 PM
p.1 #20Fungus in lens
5 days passed and still no word from the seller. 2 more days before I can escalate it to ebay.
May 31, 2011 at 08:16 PM