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Archive 2011 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens

  
 
SKumar25
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p.9 #1 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Joshua, as I said if I were shooting macros specifically this would be a no brainer. At 1:2 the Zeiss ZE is semi macro anyways.

I think you may be underplaying the speed advantage. With the same framing f/2 vs f/2.8 will give you a very different result.

The 100 ZE for me replaced the 85 L II (I don't shoot macro). It is a fast lens and can focus close, this is quite a differentiator. The 100 L IS if f/2.8, and the 85 L II has a big MFD. The ZE 100 is a nice compromise for me and I regard it as a formidable portrait lens.

Apart from rendering the bokeh is very different too, especially close up. This is difficult to measure too.

Yes, these are just tools at the end of the day. If they make good photos for us and give us happiness, that is most important.



May 26, 2011 at 11:35 PM
dudemanppl
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p.9 #2 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Kegma + 135L.


May 26, 2011 at 11:47 PM
mpmendenhall
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p.9 #3 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


wickerprints wrote:
It isn't about whether you like how a lens produces an image. It is about backing up your claims with evidence if you are going to go around telling people why your lens is "better." As I said long ago in this thread, If Zeiss users simply said, "I like Zeiss because I like the brand and I like the look," and left it at that, then that's fine. But to go around trying to explain it with pseudoscientific babble like "3D effect" and "rendering style" as if that were some kind of proof of their superiority, is dishonest hogwash.


The ultimate goal of most photographers here is not reproducing test charts (or other easily-quantifiable targets), but producing images with the best overall subjective impact. To this end, I do not think that comments on "3D" and "rendering style" are dishonest or harmful; these are subjective evaluations of overall image characteristics that are too complicated or poorly understood to reduce to single numbers (and are used and understood in this context). It would be great if we could figure out how to better define and measure these quantities, but, absent of that, the vague and ill-defined language of lens description is often better than nothing (so long as everyone understands its limitations of being vague and ill-defined).

The test for these characteristics is not whether they can be measured by a chart, but whether they can be fairly reliably picked out in a blind test comparing lenses on the same subject matter. In some cases, they cannot, but I have also seen many instances demonstrated where (a) most participants can reliably distinguish between sample images, (b) most participants will reliably choose one particular lens' images as the subjectively better versions, and (c) when asked for reasons why, they often turn to vague and subjective terminology like "3D," "realism," "vibrancy," "pop." I'm not claiming that Zeiss will necessarily be the winner in such situations, but only trying to establish that there are many cases where clear subjective differences (which may be hard to deduce from MTF charts) exist and can be seen under controlled testing conditions (unlike truly pseudo-scientific claims that vanish when scrutinized in a controlled test).

If you don't see any relevant differences in images that others commend in the vague language of subjective lens evaluation, then just ignore them. However, I (and I suspect many other people here) find such subjective evaluations from reliable commentators to often be helpful, and in accord with my own subjective responses. As imperfect and imprecise as the language of subjective lens evaluation may be, there is still often some useful information that can be imparted beyond "I like that lens". No one here is trying to con you into buying an $1800 Makro lens that doesn't have any advantages, but only doing their best to describe personal subjective responses to complex image characteristics that everyone else is free to regard or disregard as they like.



May 27, 2011 at 12:21 AM
Lars Johnsson
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p.9 #4 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


bobbytan wrote:
The only way to settle this issue is for someone to do a side-by-side test/shootout between the ZE100 and 100L, and I guess this can only be done on a Canon body. I was really only interested in Anil's impressions ... as a standalone Zeiss image posted here means absolutely nothing if there is no identical shot taken with the Canon lens to compare it to.


Lloyd Chambers have a very long review of the lens (diglloyd) at his website. You must subscribe to read everything. He compares it against the canon 100L, Nikon 105 macro and Leica 100 macro lenses. And also show many pics



May 27, 2011 at 12:43 AM
Lars Johnsson
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p.9 #5 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


thedigitalbean wrote:
I've seen Lloyd's results and yes I think he did get a dud. I've taken many side by side images of the 100 MP with my 100 L and the difference has never been huge (its there but you do have to go looking for it). Then again, I may have a superlative copy of the 100 L


Lloyd got 3 different copies of the Canon 100L. So I don't think it's fair to say "he got a dud"



May 27, 2011 at 12:49 AM
thedigitalbean
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p.9 #6 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Lars Johnsson wrote:
Lloyd got 3 different copies of the Canon 100L. So I don't think it's fair to say "he got a dud"


Seems like he gets tons of lenses with issues. I think he went through something like 5 copies of the 70-200 IS II, all with issues. He's got to be the unluckiest guy I've seen when it comes to lenses, so no, I would not at all be surprised if he got multiple duds.



May 27, 2011 at 01:19 AM
trumpet_guy
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p.9 #7 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Another way to look at it is that Lloyd gets early copies of lenses. Perhaps he is a
stringent tester who is getting early samples that thave issues that later get resolved as
lens production ramps up.



May 27, 2011 at 01:31 AM
fraga
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p.9 #8 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


philber wrote:


https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/46/537046.jpg

I would love to see this exact pic taken with a 100L.

I don't know if it's just me, but I see a sense of depth, for a lack of better words.
Maybe it's this what people claim to be 3d effect.

However, the same shot taken with the 100L would help us define if it's the conditions in which the pic was taken that gave it this effect or if it was really the lens.



May 27, 2011 at 04:49 AM
RZetter
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p.9 #9 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


wickerprints wrote:
I'm not putting down those who see this "3D effect." I'm challenging them to substantiate and quantify it, or else stop bragging about having achieved it. And to date, they can't do that. Show me data, charts, measurements. But no such analysis has been done.

The Zeiss 100 MP keeps getting raves about its superb "microcontrast." And then you see from the test charts that it has more axial color than the EF 100L from f/2 - f/2.8. What does that say about how people choose to see what they want to see? If you compare the Photozone test charts, according
...Show more

Microcontrast, or local contrast, simply means high lp/mm values at low frequencies. This can be measured by an MTF test. (See Makten's posts in this thread: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/871327)

Here's a comparison that Luka did last year between the 100L and ZE100: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=891517

I'm guessing that you actually do see the "3D look" or at least understand what is meant by it when you see that comparison.



May 27, 2011 at 06:29 AM
charlesk
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p.9 #10 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


chez wrote:
Why all this hostility towards one another.

I didn't write anything that was "hostile" towards SKumar, nor anyone else.

What I'm hostile towards is bullshit. Claiming that you have a *subjective* preference for a piece of hardware is reasonable. Claiming that there's an *objective* benefit to a piece of hardware that cannot be measured, but that you can see yet others cannot, is bullshit.

This is a gear forum. Discussing and debating gear is what we do.

As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

Personally, why anyone would spend that much money for a macro lens that isn't even a macro lens is utterly beyond me.

As for the comparison, why doesn't someone just send Lars a Canon 100mm for a week?



May 27, 2011 at 07:05 AM
chez
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p.9 #11 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


There have been links posted which compare the two lens. Take a look at them. If YOU cannot see the difference in the images, don't call someone who can, bullshit. Maybe it's just closed mindness that is clouding views.


May 27, 2011 at 07:33 AM
Karel Geertsem
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p.9 #12 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Can we agree on the following:
There are extremely good photographers (I am not one of them, unfortunately), who produce amazing work with a wide variety of gear.

Right now, my PERSONAL favorite place to find them is:
http://1x.com/photos

And here the trouble starts: no-one, not even museum (or art gallery) curators really knows what is best, or even what is 'art'; they all disagree to a certain extend. E.g. for many 1x.com would be considered as mainstream, not art, not experimental enough. I bet you all have your personal favorite photographer(s). Kinda weird that no-one here seems to claim "my personal favorite photographer is better than yours, and I feel terribly insulted when someone else says "no-MY personal favorite photographer is better than yours"". I bet this happens a lot in "art-circles" though.

Now, if any reader/contributor here can lay out a scientifically sound way to test which photo, which photographer is the best, I would be very interested

Now, to make matters even worse, there is GEAR. And here, on this "second level of religious wars", we see this thread.
Some people here seem to be really, REALLY insulted when homebody says: "X is my favorite lens", while their own favorite lens is Y. So they start a discussion: "prove it to me that yours is bigger, eh, better than mine". Which leads nowhere of course, since "your test is fundamentally flawed", is the comment on almost anybody here who tries and dares to publish a test, and hardly anybody owns comparable lenses of many different brands.
Is owning gear really a worthwhile competition?

For most pieces of gear I have ever owned, I have read some-to-many reviews. And they all differed to some extent. And after buying and using the gear I have always found both good and bad things, important for ME, that were not mentioned in any of the reviews.

So my wish for all of us here would be that we would accept that we all have our personal preferences, needs, depth of wallets and whatnot. Plus, these preferences will most likely change over time. Let's be open to the full width of the range of gear available, and learn from others, to figure out what works when for you and accept that not everything can be measured.

Making another gear choice is not meant as a personal insult or an insult of one's photography. Should every man/woman (pick your preference) in a 5.000 km radius be offended that you did not pick him/her as your spouse?

Having said all that, those that read as far as this might wonder what I am doing:
Wishing that the ZE 100 /2 MP was in stock at my friendly local gear pusher... I have some money burning a hole in my pocket since I sold my Canon 100 / 2.8 L IS three days ago.... , I could tell you why, but it would be o so very unscientific.

Peace to you all!

P.S.: I have owned gear from Pentax, Canon, Sigma, Tamron and, yes, Zeiss, so call me a fanboy of trying and learning something new!



May 27, 2011 at 07:44 AM
faremax
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p.9 #13 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


From the links to side-by-sides provided in this thread only a blind person could say that 100L is better than Zeiss. The only area where 100L beats Zeiss is at magnification and auto-focusing. I got a bit sick reading all the personal attacks on those how happen to like Zeiss. And when there is a review favoring the Zeiss, those people blame a "dud lens". You know what they say: "Ignorance is Bliss".


May 27, 2011 at 08:04 AM
PetKal
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p.9 #14 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


faremax wrote:
From the links to side-by-sides provided in this thread only a blind person could say that 100L is better than Zeiss. The only area where 100L beats Zeiss is at magnification and auto-focusing. I got a bit sick reading all the personal attacks on those how happen to like Zeiss. And when there is a review favoring the Zeiss, those people blame a "dud lens". You know what they say: "Ignorance is Bliss".


Well, yes, there is also IS, and all that at 1/2 of the Zeiss price. Perhaps some environmental sealing, although that is neither here nor there for me. Even IS is not such a huge advantage in my books, but AF, magnification and price are.

It may well be that the Zeiss has some IQ advantage over 100L, and it is obvious that the build as well as one stop of light are significant factors of superiority over 100L.

In the end, what really should matter is the results one gets with their gear.
Assuming that there are no affordability restrictions, an experienced and accomplished photographer will seldom knowingly choose a lens which would diminish their good result production.

Given my own inability to see well and focus manually, it is pretty clear in my mind that 100L allows me to get better results, such as they are, than what the Zeiss would. Therefore, 100L is a better tool for me at 1/2 of the price. A win-win, I'd say.



May 27, 2011 at 08:42 AM
saaketham
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p.9 #15 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Alt lenses give a sort of 3-D effect that no other lenses can ever give.

This started off discussing bodies, but "degraded" into discussing Alt vs Alt-Alt
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/838938



May 27, 2011 at 08:54 AM
faremax
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p.9 #16 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


PetKal wrote:
Well, yes, there is also IS, and all that at 1/2 of the Zeiss price. Perhaps some environmental sealing, although that is neither here nor there for me. Even IS is not such a huge advantage in my books, but AF, magnification and price are.

It may well be that the Zeiss has some IQ advantage over 100L, and it is obvious that the build as well as one stop of light are significant factors of superiority over 100L.

In the end, what really should matter is the results one gets with their gear.
Assuming that there are no affordability restrictions, an
...Show more

Sure, there are clear advantages to 100L and don't get me wrong it is a very solid lens optically. And as you said it as 1/2 the price. But what I don't understand is hostility toward those who like Zeiss.



May 27, 2011 at 09:14 AM
SKumar25
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p.9 #17 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


No one can argue with that PetKal.


May 27, 2011 at 09:15 AM
AGeoJO
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p.9 #18 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


I believe that the debate here, heated as it has been or was, is kept quite civil. Is that just my personal perception or do you actually see hostility or personal attacks? It is almost like in the same fashion of folks being able to see 3D rendering coming from a certain brand of lenses while others cannot although they try hard .


May 27, 2011 at 09:19 AM
SKumar25
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p.9 #19 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Some photos as promised. Most are random test shots.

1) wide open:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-W8QtGF5/0/O/i-W8QtGF5.jpg

2)
Unsharpened 100% crop:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-wc49ksW/0/O/i-wc49ksW.jpg

3)
Bokeh close and wide open is very different to Canon, you may or may not like it:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-Qs3xzSL/0/O/i-Qs3xzSL.jpg

4)
Wide open shot:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/1007453312_PqRFa-O.jpg

5)
Can you see presence in this shot, like you are there? Especially in the back tyre and sweater. This is typical Zeiss rendering As I said some people like it, others don't:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-srgPsSW/0/O/i-srgPsSW.jpg



May 27, 2011 at 09:28 AM
faremax
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p.9 #20 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


AGeoJO wrote:
I believe that the debate here, heated as it has been or was, is kept quite civil. Is that just my personal perception or do you actually see hostility or personal attacks? It is almost like in the same fashion of folks being able to see 3D rendering coming from a certain brand of lenses while others cannot although they try hard .


Scroll a few pages back. And you don't have to blame yourself for not seeing. I am sure it's not the only thing that you can't do and others can. I don't know what this 3D thing is too yet I like a lot Zeiss lenses. Not all but 21mm, 50MP and 100MP, for example, are superb IMO.



May 27, 2011 at 09:35 AM
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