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Archive 2011 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens

  
 
denoir
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p.31 #1 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


gdanmitchell wrote:
Finally, thank you melcat for your follow-up regarding "Zeiss colors" and "drawing style," and for your successful though subtle take-down of a post typical of some who think that by using sophisticated and technical sounding but meaningless terminology their arguments will acquire more legitimacy - and who imagine that no one sees right through them. I had a laugh over his suggestion that I should go read about MTF in much the same way that you probably enjoyed pointing out the irrelevance of the link.


I've always found it amazing that there are people that take pride in ignorance. I have no problem with ignorance and I can also reconcile myself with the fact that some people are by nature simply not very bright. I'll never however be able to see eye to eye with people who see their ignorance as something to embrace and revel in. Obviously there is an inferiority complex involved but there is definitely more to it as loudly and proudly declaring yourself to be ignorant isn't precisely going to improve your standing in the eyes of other - and thus just increase the inferiority complex.

The reason why there was only one, very surprised and short answer to Melcat's post is because it was completely nonsensical. Of course color cast is not what is meant by a difference in color rendering. Any comparison shots have to be white balanced. And of course the blind test that determined that both people in the alt forum and the POTN board could tell Zeiss and Canon apart were white balanced.

A difference in color rendering means color separation, hue and saturation. There's a huge difference between lenses - even of the same manufacturer and generation. An example that has been discussed and tested in the alt forum are the Leica 35/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH and Leica 28/2 Summicron-M ASPH. The first one produces low saturation colors while the other one produces hyper-saturated colors with the greens almost having a radioactive look to them. Color separation is also very easy to show as there is great variation there as well.

Here's a simple example for you, and you'd have to be really color blind if you don't see the differences. Open the images in separate tabs in your browser and flip between them:

Canon EF 50/1.4 @ f/5.6
Zeiss 50/2 Makro Planar @ f/5.6

These are not subtle differences. They are massive. If you can't see them then you should probably not bother with color photography. The Canon EF 50/1.4 is of course an extreme example and there are many Canon lenses that will produce much more vivid colors, but the example is illustrative as the difference is so extreme.

As for the second part of melcat's post about how common the use of "drawing style" is, the answer (which is "quite common") can be obtained by a simple google search.

The Zeiss MTF document was included for your benefit as it contains precise definition of some of the terms you claimed were vague. However since you value your ignorance that much that link was indeed useless as you might have actually learned something.



Jun 07, 2011 at 01:50 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.31 #2 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


charlesk wrote:
I'm trying to think of a single example of anyone ever criticizing one of my images for lacking in "corner sharpness". Or anyone else's for that matter.

I think the technical details are really only of interest to photographers themselves, not people who appreciate photography.



As long as the details are of interest to someone, they are a legitimate point of discussion. Just because the differences are not visible (to some) in prints you make or in web sized images does not mean the discussion is of no value. For instance, I am a photographer, I appreciate photography, and I find the minutiae of the optical properties of the lenses to be of interest.



Jun 07, 2011 at 04:33 AM
SKumar25
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p.31 #3 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Mike Mahoney wrote:
A picture is worth a thousand words ..


f/2.8:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-srgPsSW/0/O/i-srgPsSW.jpg
100% Crop:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-5sCSq89/0/O/i-5sCSq89.jpg

f/6.3:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-tLTPc8V/0/O/i-tLTPc8V.jpg
100% Crop:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-mGvLtPB/0/O/i-mGvLtPB.jpg

f/2:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-gm6L4gK/0/O/i-gm6L4gK.jpg
100% Crop:
http://www.lotuscreativeworks.com/photos/i-QXSc9dK/0/O/i-QXSc9dK.jpg



Jun 07, 2011 at 05:35 AM
rabugov
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p.31 #4 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Skumar25 - Well said!!!!


Jun 07, 2011 at 06:38 AM
charlesk
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p.31 #5 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


You may have to be rich to have the best of everything, but even on a small income you can aim for the best in one particular area of passion (so long the that passion isn't, e.g., yacht racing).

And that's a perfectly valid choice. But it doesn't change the fundamental fact that there are trade-offs to be made. Even in your $20k of photo gear, you've had to make trade-offs. That's the point. Nobody can have the best of everything unless they have an unlimited budget. If you spend a huge amount of extra $ on getting a marginally sharper lens of one kind, that's just less $ available for something else.

Just because the differences are not visible (to some) in prints you make or in web sized images does not mean the discussion is of no value.

Never suggested the discussion was of no value. I was saying that these "huge image quality differences" that some rant and rave about are often overblown. Furthermore, the claims that viewers of photos care deeply about minor technical differences only visible at huge magnifications of side-by-side images, are laughable.

These are not subtle differences. They are massive.

Actually, they are both. They are "massive" perhaps in the SOOC shots. But they are pretty much meaningless given that color adjustments are routinely made during RAW processing and editing, and those adjustments can easily compensate for any differences between "styles" in lenses. Even small changes to the sliders in a RAW program will have far bigger impact than the most dramatic differences you can find between any pair of comparable lenses.

Skumar25 - Well said!!!!

Not all pictures are worth a thousand words. I don't see how those images -- which were already posted previously -- advance the discussion in any way.



Jun 07, 2011 at 07:46 AM
denoir
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p.31 #6 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


charlesk wrote:
Actually, they are both. They are "massive" perhaps in the SOOC shots. But they are pretty much meaningless given that color adjustments are routinely made during RAW processing and editing, and those adjustments can easily compensate for any differences between "styles" in lenses. Even small changes to the sliders in a RAW program will have far bigger impact than the most dramatic differences you can find between any pair of comparable lenses.


Yes and no.

It's true that you can make far more dramatic differences by a simple pull of a slider. It's not true that you can compensate for the difference in the lenses. You can do certain things to reduce the difference, certainly - but those are very simple software emulations and can very rarely compensate for the real optical thing. The same way you can't increase resolution by using software sharpening, you can't improve color separation by increasing the saturation. When the information that contains the subtle variations in colors, you can't do anything about it. You can work with existing information, but not with information you don't have.

The same goes for a variety of parameters ranging from micro contrast to bokeh.

Now, even if we suppose that you could simulate the optical effects with PP it wouldn't do you much good as it's not one style for one lens. It will completely depend on aperture, focsuing distance, subject, light intensity etc How will you know how to post process if you don't have a sample shot with the other lens?

That of course is a hypothetical question as it can't be done even in theory. Here's the expanded MTF for three different Zeiss lenses. We're not talking about Zeiss vs Canon, but Zeiss vs Zeiss:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/mtf/mtf_35zeiss.jpg

Look at just the two bottom rows - the 40 lp/mm MTFs. No mater how hard you try you cannot by any means using the ZE 35/1.4 and ZE 35/2 get to the high micro contrast for fine detail of the ZM 35/2. It's not possible as the information isn't there. Subsequently the three will render quite differently. If you have something with fine texture, use the ZM. If you on the other hand want high edge contrast, to make objects 'pop', use the ZE 35/2. And so on.

And MTF charts only describe one aspect of the lens. It won't tell you for instance that the ZM 35/2 has awful bokeh, while the ZE 35/1.4 produces a very pleasant one. The ZE 35/2 produces pleasant enough OOF rendering, but not quite as good as the ZE 35/2 - but at the same time it doesn't suffer from the field curvature the ZE 35/1.4 does. They're all different and good at different things as all optical designs are compromises. Very few of these inherent optical properties of the lenses can be simulated in software.



Edited on Jun 07, 2011 at 08:31 AM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2011 at 08:25 AM
corndog
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p.31 #7 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Just checking in, you guys still arguing about perceptions and how people should spend their money? Okay, cool, please continue.


Jun 07, 2011 at 08:29 AM
panos.v
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p.31 #8 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


What would Jesus buy?




Jun 07, 2011 at 09:16 AM
charlesk
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p.31 #9 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens



It's true that you can make far more dramatic differences by a simple pull of a slider. It's not true that you can compensate for the difference in the lenses. You can do certain things to reduce the difference, certainly - but those are very simple software emulations and can very rarely compensate for the real optical thing.

I think the problem here is that you are assuming I would try to compensate for differences in lenses or whatnot. I wouldn't. I'd just process the image so it looks the way I remembered the scene, or how I want the scene to look. If the image comes SOOC closer to the level of color I want, then I'd process less; if it comes out further way, I'd process more. Just as I'd process differently if conditions at the scene warranted it.

So I'm not disputing that there is a difference, I'm just not really seeing why it matters.


The same way you can't increase resolution by using software sharpening, you can't improve color separation by increasing the saturation.

Sorry, I don't understand the phrase "color separation" in this context. I'll freely admit you may be on to something here I'm not familiar with.

When the information that contains the subtle variations in colors, you can't do anything about it. You can work with existing information, but not with information you don't have.

Again, not really sure what you mean here. Maybe you mean the relative differences between colors within a scene or something.

It will completely depend on aperture, focsuing distance, subject, light intensity etc How will you know how to post process if you don't have a sample shot with the other lens?

But this really plays into my point. How big is the difference caused by the lens relative to differences caused by other factors?



Jun 07, 2011 at 09:25 AM
philber
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p.31 #10 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Let me ask one simple question: if Zeiss lenses, to put it simply, don't make any difference, or only a very slight one, or only one that can easily be compensated for in PP, all of this by comparison to Canon lenses, as repeatedly ans so vigorously asserted on this thread, then surely that also applies to a comparison between Canon lenses.

Then anybody suggesting that Canon "L" lenses are desirable because they produce better images than kit lenses in a meningful, worthwhile way is the same sort of hopeless, laughable, clueless, snob that has been denounced in those very words here.

Or am I missing something?



Jun 07, 2011 at 09:45 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.31 #11 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


denoir wrote:
I've always found it amazing that there are people that take pride in ignorance...


Of all the things I take pride in, ignorance is not one of them.

I stand by what I wrote about that original post, and more importantly about the obsession with "perfect gear" in ways that are irrelevant to producing photographs. I am most certainly not "ignorant" of technical issues related to photography, all the way from lenses and cameras through the printing process. I do, on the other hand, eschew the "equipment fetish" business, particularly when it becomes a distraction from producing photographs.

By training and long experience I am familiar with this affectation in areas other than photography. For example, in music you will find people who are absolutely obsessed with owning the "best" audio systems and who will invest tons of money it obtaining the supposed best - and who will argue at great length about which thing is better. They even use the same sort of pretentious terminology we find among people with a comparable relationship with photographic equipment.

When compact disks first came out, some professional musician friends and I went to one of the stores that caters to these people do discuss CD players. This was back in the time when the technology was first available. You could get a CD player for perhaps a bit less than $200 or you could spend several thousand dollars for an audiophile player. We'll never forget the audiophile techie at the store telling us, people who did music for a living, that we should prefer multi-thousand dollar vinyl disk players because CD systems clearly exhibited "digital glare." Barely suppressing our laughter, we left.

I had another friend whose business was doing on-site live recording of professional classical performances. He used to tell the story of audiophiles being duped into buying something called "Wonder Solder." Apparently the story was that if you de-soldered components in your audiophile system that had been constructed using "normal" solder and then re-soldered with "Wonder Solder" that you would achieve a wonderful "expansion of the sound stage" and other such hoo-hah. At this point in the story he would begin to laugh uncontrollably.

The double-irony is that very few real musicians give a damn about the supposed high end best audiophile gear, at least beyond the point at which a) performance is very good indeed, and b) any differences are trivial or completely irrelevant to their experience of hearing recorded music. The "triple-irony" is that the ability to distinguish (or imagine you can distinguish) among such technical differences in machinery is just about wholly unrelated to the ability to "hear" and understand music, much less produce it with technical and aesthetic power.

Photography is little different. The majority of excellent photographers do care about the quality of our equipment, as measured by the extent to which it allows them/us to achieve our goal of producing excellent photographs. But while many of them find test results interesting and informative, they understand the context for this in ways that the equipment obsessives seem not to. If you think that the differences in image quality between, say, this vaunted (and no doubt excellent) Zeiss lens and, say, the Canon 100mm macro will actually be visible in your photographic work, I say go for it.

On the other hand, it often seems like a sorry distraction when people get so wrapped up in which lens provides some tiny (and often mystical) increment of "difference" in some way that may or may not be measurable... when the same energy applied to actual photography with a wide range of appropriate equipment could make an actual, visible difference in the work they produce.

denoir wrote:
These are not subtle differences. They are massive. If you can't see them then you should probably not bother with color photography.


a. I'll let my photographs and the response they engender in viewers determine whether I "should not bother with color photography," rather than imagining that an ability to read test charts (which I can do) or laboriously compare side by side image (which I can do as well) has any bearing on ones abilities as a photographer.

b. You still seem to be largely missing my basic point.

c. You have a strange notion of the meaning of "massive."

Take care,

Dan



Jun 07, 2011 at 11:06 AM
michael49
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p.31 #12 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


denoir wrote:
....
Here's a simple example for you, and you'd have to be really color blind if you don't see the differences. Open the images in separate tabs in your browser and flip between them:

Canon EF 50/1.4 @ f/5.6
Zeiss 50/2 Makro Planar @ f/5.6

.


The Zeiss colors looks more saturated and vibrant, but I could make the Canon image look just like the Zeiss with a few simple edits in LR3. So I'll stick with the much cheaper Canon.



Jun 07, 2011 at 11:17 AM
denoir
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p.31 #13 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Look Dan, if it was all pseudo-scientific bullshit, why do you think we bother doing things such as blind tests? The case of the difference in lenses is not analogous to the audiophile case, but the people active in the alt forum that have an interest in lenses are acutely aware of the risk of getting carried away and subjectively over interpeting things.

Specifically in the Zeiss case it borders on paranoia and the reason is simple. If you look somewhere around the middle of the Zeiss image thread you'll see an informal poll of what people work with. It turned out that some 80% are engineers (me included). We've got people posting there that design camera sensors as well as people that design lenses. I know one for certain that works for a major Japanese camera company with lens design and I suspect two or three others. The irony here is that the people you are accusing of imagining things are likely the people that design the lenses that you use.

There is a certain jargon and nomenclature that is used when discussing the different characteristics of lenses - some of it general, some of it specific to this forum. It does not however mean that it's pointless techno babble and mysticism. There are controversial terms such as "3D" which has been debated endlessly. There is a 38 pages long thread called "What is 3D" where it has been discussed from every possible angle with the result that the consensus is that there is no consensus and that further research would be interesting to see if at least some form of groupings of meanings could be extracted. Every veteran of that forum knows that when the expression "3D" is used that it is a subjective evaluation and new members learn it soon enough. In the vast majority of cases however the nomenclature used is not vague or ambiguous.

And we do tests, and some more tests and when we're done with the tests we do some more tests. It's not because we love doing tests but simply because we like to learn the tools we use. It is through testing that I know that if I'll be photographing a sand beach and using a small aperture I should use a ZM 35/2 rather than a ZE 35/2 if I want the texture of the sand to really come through.

You keep talking about the artistic part of photography, but as I said earlier - photography is both an art and a craft. Knowing your tools, having the right tools to transform a creative vision into an actual photograph is the craft form and it adds to the whole.



Jun 07, 2011 at 11:42 AM
panos.v
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p.31 #14 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


denoir wrote:
It is through testing that I know that if I'll be photographing a sand beach and using a small aperture I should use a ZM 35/2 rather than a ZE 35/2 if I want the texture of the sand to really come through.


Is this true? You actually own both and do make such a decision...?



Jun 07, 2011 at 11:56 AM
denoir
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p.31 #15 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


charlesk wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand the phrase "color separation" in this context. I'll freely admit you may be on to something here I'm not familiar with.

Again, not really sure what you mean here. Maybe you mean the relative differences between colors within a scene or something.


Color separation is the lack of overlap of rays of light with similar frequencies in the lens.

Think of Chromatic Aberrations - it's what occurs when light of different frequencies hit the sensor/film at different spots because the lens acted as a sort of prism. You can think of poor color separation as an analogous problem but one that occurs within the actual lens elements. The light instead of going a straight path disperses within the lens separated by frequencies. So colors that are close together in terms of wavelength blend together. The problem is proportional to the quality of the glass material. Weak color rendering with bland, poorly separated colors are one of the hallmarks of cheap lenses. The manufacturers save on the optical glass material used and as a consequence the color separation suffers (among other things).

Leica is the undisputed king of using top end exotic glass material and subsequently Leica lenses also produce the best color separation where minor nuances in color are still very well defined.

Anyway, for a practical demonstration, I've isolated a couple of areas from the shot above:

Canon EF 50 @ f/5.6
Zeiss 50 MP @ f/5.6

Open the images in separate tabs and flip between them. Observe that it's not a question of saturation - increasing the saturation on the Canon won't help a bit. The problem is that similar colors simply blend together while the other lens keeps the nuances distinct. There's almost like a "haze" over the EF 50 shot - and that's the effect of the 'spreading out' of light inside the lens elements.


panos.v wrote:
Is this true? You actually own both and do make such a decision...?


Yes. I actually have three Zeiss 35mm primes and a Leica 35, all good in different respects and not so good in others.

It's however not that I walk around with an arsenal of 50 lenses and pick the "correct" one for each shot. No, I usually pick a couple of primes to work with. Which prime lenses I pick will however depend on which subject I'm planning to shoot. And when I'm shooting I'm aware of the situations where the individual lenses I've chosen are good and where they are not. So if I'm for instance out shooting with the ZM 35/2 I'll be looking for subjects that suit it and try to make use of them - for instance in the case of the ZM 35 anything that has a detailed texture. If I have the ZE 35/2 along then I'm more likely to look at things at medium distance that have a well defined geometry that the lens will accentuate.



Jun 07, 2011 at 12:21 PM
panos.v
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p.31 #16 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


denoir wrote:
Yes. I actually have three Zeiss 35mm primes and a Leica 35, all good in different respects and not so good in others.

It's however not that I walk around with an arsenal of 50 lenses and pick the "correct" one for each shot. No, I usually pick a couple of primes to work with. Which prime lenses I pick will however depend on which subject I'm planning to shoot. And when I'm shooting I'm aware of the situations where the individual lenses I've chosen are good and where they are not. So if I'm for instance out shooting with the
...Show more

Fascinating!




Jun 07, 2011 at 01:41 PM
skibum5
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p.31 #17 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


gdanmitchell wrote:
Of all the things I take pride in, ignorance is not one of them.

I stand by what I wrote about that original post, and more importantly about the obsession with "perfect gear" in ways that are irrelevant to producing photographs. I am most certainly not "ignorant" of technical issues related to photography, all the way from lenses and cameras through the printing process. I do, on the other hand, eschew the "equipment fetish" business, particularly when it becomes a distraction from producing photographs.

By training and long experience I am familiar with this affectation in areas other than photography. For
...Show more

There is a LOT of snake oil in high-end audio. And all sorts of nonsense about quantum smoothing digital interconnects and so on. That said different speakers and headphones sure can sound one heck of a lot different. Compare iPod earbuds to Monster Audio Beats headphones to Grado SR80 to AKG K701 and you'll EASILY, EASILY notice the difference (and likely notice that the Monster Audio Beats cost as much or even far more than others on the list sounding better). The AKG K701 has a truly insanely spacious soundstage for head phones, extreme quick response for pin point impacts and instrument attacks, the ipod earbuds have weak soundstage and muddle things together instruments are not so distinct from one another, etc.

And, surprisingly, even something as basic as what opamps you use in your custom sound card do make a difference.

But then again yeah $5000 per foot cables or even $50 per foot it 99.9% nonsense. To be honest, as long as you get the proper gauge home depot copper house wiring it'll sound 99.9% like some $$$$ cable. And I especially love how even for digital interconnects where you are just passing a specific say DTS-HD MA programmed compressed bit sequence you read about how some 'special' cable noticeably brightens up the mid-range and delivers the richest, deepest, most powerful base possible. Hah I mean come on what you tell me the cable does signal processing and knows how to decode digital signals and alter the output, utterly laughable! If they did anything at all other than decompress and re-encode the formats then the signal wouldn't even play since it would no longer be in the proper format for the decoder to recognize!
And yet mags go on about how some digital interconnect does this or that!

And differences between lenses are often readily apparent, although it does depend. Even something as basic as tamron 70-300 VC at 300 vs 70-200 f/4 IS + TC vs 70-300 IS vs 70-300L vs 300 2.8 IS vs 120-300 sigma all at 280-300 definitely give images that look different. But yes, yes, of course a great subject, shot well with an average lens probably makes for more drama than a boring subject, shot poorly with the best lens ever made.


Edited on Jun 08, 2011 at 01:57 AM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2011 at 01:51 PM
alundeb
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p.31 #18 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


gdanmitchell wrote:
I stand by what I wrote about that original post, and more importantly about the obsession with "perfect gear" in ways that are irrelevant to producing photographs. I am most certainly not "ignorant" of technical issues related to photography, all the way from lenses and cameras through the printing process. I do, on the other hand, eschew the "equipment fetish" business, particularly when it becomes a distraction from producing photographs.

By training and long experience I am familiar with this affectation in areas other than photography. For example, in music you will find people who are absolutely obsessed with owning the
...Show more

I have edited the quote to include the parts I respond to.

1) In the audio reproduction chain, differences in such things as signal cables with 99.9999% pure copper and ultra stabilized CD players, are neither measurable, nor explainable in theory, nor audible in blind tests. With lenses, the differences in images are both measurable, explainable in theory and visible in blind tests to an extent beoynd any comparsion with the audio case.

2) Lenses should be compared to microphones, not reproduction equipment. Microphones are crucial in sound recording. The quality you get for money is significant in high-end recordings, a long way up the "obsession" stairs. There are even vintage mics with characteristics that are preferred by musicians, and the properties of which cannot be emulated by signal processing, because they have to do with 3 dimensional sound waves being transduced to a simple time-domain electrical signal.


Those "distractions" are not as severe among us as you may think. Thedigitalbean who made side-by-side comparisons of the two lenses in question, and did not find the same color and contrast differences as others, yet still decided to keep the Zeiss lens for its incremental improved characteristics in certain landscape images. His body of work is wonderful, and his main focus is on photography. Many of the photographers posting in the plethora of gear-related image threads in the alt forum, show a photographic eye and a vision for image content and, may I say so, even poetry in their images. It seems that their obession with alternative gear serve as one of multiple sources of inspiration, rather than a distraction. Myself, I am not posting images here very often, but that doesn't mean I don't spend a lot more time on making photographs, developing image creative skills, publishing images, printing and selling prints. And I am not a professional, I do this for enjoyment.

You do have a point regarding some differences between lenses may not be relevant in many cases. Still, based on the number of your posts here that are concerned about this matter and various problems people have with gear limitiations, one could easliy believe that you have an obsession in preventing what you think is irrelevant in photography from having their place in peoples knowledge. Luckily, I know that you also have a significant photographic production, so I rest assured that you are not distracted by discussions either. After all, our participation here is hardly indicative of what we do outside.




Jun 07, 2011 at 03:48 PM
Mike K
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p.31 #19 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


Thread Summary:
Let me attempt to summarize a few elements to this long thread:

1. The thread started off with a recently published lens review of the Zeiss 100/2 Makro Planar, which being posted in the Canon forum, posters quickly compared to the Canon 100/2.8 IS L Macro. There was heated discussion as to the interpretation of the data supporting views as to the optical qualities of these two lenses.

2. There was bickering over those that felt some Zeiss supporters were biased, claiming the brand made "better" images, while this interpretation was in heated dispute.

3. Several examples of images from these lenses were shown to support either view that the two lenses produced similar, or different image qualities.

4. Page 20#12 Denoir explained a recent test he had run in the FM alt forum and POTN forum, a blind test with negative controls, which showed that participants could tell the difference between a Zeiss image and Canon image with statistical significance. There was no assessment of the Zeiss images being better or worse than the Canon, just different.

5. Most seemed to agree that it is also possible to produce images from either lens that are indistinguishable from the other. Thus the difference seen in 4, above is not always present in comparative images. This was consistent with point 3 above. The use variables creating these differences were not discussed in detail.

6. The discussion turned to the language to describe any said differences, and whether they are significant or worthwhile ($). This assessment as to value of any differences seems to be a subjective one, based upon our artistic style, and opinions strongly diverge as to significance.

Mike K

Edited on Jun 07, 2011 at 04:10 PM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2011 at 03:58 PM
Sheldon N
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p.31 #20 · Digital-Picture review ZE 100 MP lens


...

7. Many onlookers derived great enjoyment from a silent observation of the carnage.



Jun 07, 2011 at 04:08 PM
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