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Archive 2017 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion

  
 
carstenw
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p.106 #1 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Another from the Haus der Offiziere. [email protected]:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/urbex/CW_20120520_NikonD3_0001-3-2.jpg

In these two shots I had a lot of trouble keeping the HDR look toned down without losing all colour or having too high contrast. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe the large number of shots required to capture both highlights and deep shadows (11 in this shot)?



May 30, 2012 at 04:02 PM
joakim
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p.106 #2 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Two very nice photos Carsten but the last one is very HDR-ish.


May 30, 2012 at 04:52 PM
wfrank
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p.106 #3 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Nice shot Carsten! I personally prefer it over the previous one despite more HDR-vibes.


May 31, 2012 at 01:10 AM
AhamB
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p.106 #4 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


carstenw wrote:
Which leads me to this: why do you react differently to shots that look closer to reality? Do you mean that you are conditioned to looking at photographs with their limited dynamic range (compared to ourselves) in mind?


Single shots usually have a wider DR. Most tone mapped (compressed DR) shots have low local contrast in parts of the image (mostly the parts that have lifted exposure compared to the highlights). I guess that that's the reason why they often look like paintings.

I don't like the tonemapped look much because it looks to me like the parts that are exposed for the shadows have been pasted in and blended with a gradient wich gives this weird glow. I really like your shot at the top of this page though.

Edited on May 31, 2012 at 01:54 AM · View previous versions



May 31, 2012 at 01:48 AM
ukkisavosta
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p.106 #5 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Great images, Carsten!

The question of reacting differently to an HDR photo is an interesting one. Not sure if it's because we have a certain expectation as to how a normally exposed photo "should" look. On the other hand, some HDR scenes (such as your first one) might actually look surreal to us even in real life, as we're used to seeing a large hall lit brightly with fluorescent lamps and not by the sun, flowing in through large windows on the one side.

Jaakko



May 31, 2012 at 01:54 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #6 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Interesting answers, thanks!

Yes Benjamin, I really struggled to control the glow in the second shot. The only way I could get rid of it was to go in the direction of contrast as the camera saw it, i.e. no shadow detail at all. I don't know what the difference is which causes this to happen.

I used the Detail Enhancer, which is probably the most HDRish of the three engines. Maybe I should try one of the others and see if they can do a better job.

Btw, the compressed DR cannot be the only reason for the glowy look, our eyes are able to do the same compression without the glow...



May 31, 2012 at 02:23 AM
wfrank
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p.106 #7 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


I think we're too used to how a 20th century photograph should look like, ie outblown skies and black (0,0,0) shadows. But of course our eyes dont see the world like that, they adapt to a much wider DR continuously in split seconds.

That's why we like portraits so much taken in secondary window light, dusk/dawn light or even overcast/rainy weather. It appears more like we saw it as the DR is such that any cam can cope.

But when it cant (DR too big), HDR is a way of compressing that DR to something that will fit into an image. Then it wont look like a 20th century photograph anymore, but often a better representative of what our eyes actually saw. HDR - both SW and HW - is in it's infancy still and will develop.

I admit that I like some "overcooked" images when they suit my taste. But also more balanced ones. To me Carstens images moves between balanced and slightly cooked which is an area I like - even though I myself do more cooking :-)



May 31, 2012 at 02:39 AM
AhamB
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p.106 #8 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


carstenw wrote:
Btw, the compressed DR cannot be the only reason for the glowy look, our eyes are able to do the same compression without the glow...


You never see the whole scene at once with your eyes. I imagine that the whole scene is integrated temporally into a higher level, more abstract mental impression in the brain; not really a physical image. What you eyes are focusing on momentarily is only a very small area and not integrated with anything, so there would be no reason to see any glow (at most you'll see veiling flare from bright light sources).

Isn't the glow in HDR tone mapped images there simply because gaussian blur is part of the process (to prevent abrupt transitions)?



May 31, 2012 at 03:44 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #9 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


I don't know where the glow comes from, to be honest.

About only seeing a part of the scene, yes, but while this is true, we have the impression that we are seeing it all, because we can look anywhere without restriction and our eyes react quickly



May 31, 2012 at 04:37 AM
wfrank
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p.106 #10 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


My Canon 5D2 is quickly turning into a CY yunkie. Now I have 50/1.4, 35/1.4 (on its way), 85/1.4 and the 28-85. Now I am being offered a 100/2 in apparently mint condition for 550Euro or a little less. It's an MM, dont know if it's MMJ or MMG.

I know how praised the ZE100/2 is, is this on par? To me the other CY's looks as good (or in the case of the 35 maybe even better). And is the price fair or even good?

Appreciate any comment, really. I DONT need this lens, the opportuity (if it is..) just came up through contacts.





May 31, 2012 at 10:00 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #11 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


The Contax 100/2 is similar to the 35/1.4 compared to the ZF/ZE equivalents: perhaps a tiny bit softer, different colour, but maybe with a bit more magic and 3D...

My dream Contax small kit would be the 35/1.4+100/2, but my Nikon won't take the 35.



May 31, 2012 at 10:39 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #12 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Another shot from the Haus der Offiziere, ZF.2 21/2.8 wide open, 9 shots, this time with Fusion - Adjust:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/urbex/CW_20120520_NikonD3_0001-4-2.jpg



May 31, 2012 at 04:58 PM
wfrank
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p.106 #13 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Good shot, love the depth! I wonder how a lowkey version of this would look (although I see dangerous highlights low left).

Have you tried to put in 3 out of those images into the HDR engine rather than 9 and compared the outcome? What steps do you use in the 9 may I ask?

(also, thanks for the input on the 100/2!)



May 31, 2012 at 05:08 PM
carstenw
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p.106 #14 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Thanks Wilhelm! I haven't tried leaving out shots in the sequence, although with the trouble I have had with shots with several photos recently it has crossed my mind to try. Just 3 sounds a little radical, but I can try it for experimentation's sake. The steps are always +1. If the Nikon could do more, like +1 1/3 or +1 2/3, or even +2, I would try that and compare. I did +1 1/2 manually for some sequence on this trip, but not for this shot.


Jun 01, 2012 at 01:51 AM
philip_pj
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p.106 #15 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


In some ways, HDR is an over-reaction to the abbreviated DR wilhelm alluded to, from film processes. I used to shoot slide film landscapes only on rainy or cloudy days for years.

But when HDR steps past the range of authenticity, not everyone will like it.
So yes, the first and more realistic photo is much more to my preference, it is highly credible. Apparent light source is critical - the second appears to have light coming from all directions, clearly impossible and clearly manipulated. Many, many fine art images start with good shadows, less can be more.

If you are looking for realism, when you lift shadows they will need more contrast, which PS does much better than any raw converter unfortunately.

Interesting also is that carsten used the 21mm for these two images. This lens is fabulous at retaining great detail with realistic colour in low light, one reason I like it so much.

DR is receding as a serious problem for raw images these days. LR/ACR is so good at recovery at the expense of lively specular highlights sometimes.



Jun 01, 2012 at 02:35 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #16 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


I wouldn't say that HDR is an over-reaction to abbreviated DR, unless you believe that abbreviated DR is inherently superior, to the point where it isn't even worth discussing. HDR techniques can get much closer to the real look than traditional digital cameras can, when large DR is a feature of the scene.

We are definitely used to looking at photos with limited DR, and for those who have adjusted their art goggles accordingly, HDR will look "wrong", even if it is more "right".

Anyway, I wish the sliders in Photomatix Pro were as intuitive to use as you hint at, i.e. lift shadows and so on, but instead there are sliders like Sharpness (which is actually a contrast slider with other side-effects, and so on. I would love for Photomatix Pro to be completely redesigned, and for all sliders to become more traditional, as well as some local tools to be added, like Dodge and Burn, but I doubt this will happen. Getting the look you want from this program is truly frustrating. Even after having done many dozens of shots with it, I still haven't found a better approach than trying all presets, picking the best, and tweaking all sliders repeatedly, truly a UI failure.



Jun 01, 2012 at 03:53 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.106 #17 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Carsten the last one is best I have seen with Fusion, typically they don't look very good. The one on last page "[email protected]" look unreal somehow, but if I evaluate it as graphical art (as computer or pencil drawing) then I find it very enjoyable, like the cartoonish approach (little like "best" computer games with their crappy HDR emulations).

Wilhelm, I really like the rendering style of 28-85, and you use it to interesting subjects (from rendering point of view). Very nice set from concrete hell. I would assume "brightness errors" (e.g. darger surrounding around lightpole on right) are caused by excessive use of "highlights" slider, not by lens in IMG_9013?

carstenw wrote:
Anyway, I wish the sliders in Photomatix Pro were as intuitive to use as you hint at, i.e. lift shadows and so on, but instead there are sliders like Sharpness (which is actually a contrast slider with other side-effects, and so on. I would love for Photomatix Pro to be completely redesigned, and for all sliders to become more traditional, as well as some local tools to be added, like Dodge and Burn, but I doubt this will happen. Getting the look you want from this program is truly frustrating. Even after having done many dozens of shots with it,
...Show more
I'm less frustrated to the sliders, but I have used PhotoMatix Pro few more years than you. Most of the problems you tell don't seem to bother me (mostly I shoot landscapes, which are easier for HDR processing but I do also shoot same kind of stuff you shoot, including more difficult scenery for HDR). I run same settings most of my photos (+always minor adjustments with smoothening sliders), but if I fail on shooting then my life becomes as frustrating as yours...I have saved two presets what I use; normal and backlight (and 10 others for cases in which I failed on shooting; "normal lighter" and "normal darker" etc. but they never work again so there is no point saving them, but at the time I saved them I didn't know that). Like always I try to do my best at shooting so less time spend on computer. Here are few hints, which I would recommend you to try:
- (sorry didn't mention in my previous post about PhotoMatix usage, I more or less assumed that importance of this is known, but thinking more of it it's not mentioned in instructions etc. so it may not be so obvious) make 100000000% sure your exposures are always so that middle frame is "correct" (or always 2/3 stop over, whatever but the point being your middle exposure is always the same compared to preferred rendering)....
- .... if you fail then scrap the frames which throw you off from your normal (e.g. you shoot 9 frames but notice that your middle exposure is not your middle exposure --> throw frames in trash until your middle exposure is middle exposure)
- standardize shooting process, always 3 frames with 1 1/3 stop steps for example (I know Nikon limits you to 1 stop increments), don't experiment with different shooting process and then complain you are frustrated to post processing how I see it "one shooting process = one or few HDR processes", if you want work more and harder on computer then changing the shooting process all the time is the best way to keep you busy
- don't try to capture scene with 25 stops of DR, no matter how you mangle the data in HDR software it will not end up looking good, the "[email protected]" is close to have too much, in this kind of scene human eye starts to have problems seeing darkest shadows






From 2009 summer holiday to Norway. This one is from Vestvågøy with Contax Distagon T* 2.8/28 @ f/11, HDR (1/30s, 1/80s, 1/200s - in Aperture I adjusted 0.7 stops more light to each frame in order to avoid complicated and frustrating adjustment process in PhotoMatix Pro) - larger (not example of HDR, but I try post some pictures when I post something here)


Samuli



Jun 01, 2012 at 05:24 AM
carstenw
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p.106 #18 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


Thanks for the tips, Samuli, I will try again.

These last few shots were done in a very dark building with no lights, but direct bright sun shining in and hitting something. I tried to capture some detail everywhere (and succeeded), but it seems that Photomatix Pro cannot handle more than about 7-9 frames correctly, and maybe there is an issue with the central shot being correctly exposed, as you mention. The glow around bright places, the difficulty of controlling the conversion, these things only happened to me in these series. I have done some series with 1 1/2 stop gaps in this location, and I will try a 7-shot series with one of these to see if it goes though. If so, I will have to do my HDR sequences manually when the range goes beyond 7 shots at +1 gaps.



Jun 01, 2012 at 07:43 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.106 #19 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


carstenw wrote:
These last few shots were done in a very dark building with no lights, but direct bright sun shining in and hitting something. I tried to capture some detail everywhere (and succeeded), but it seems that Photomatix Pro cannot handle more than about 7-9 frames correctly, and maybe there is an issue with the central shot being correctly exposed, as you mention. The glow around bright places, the difficulty of controlling the conversion, these things only happened to me in these series. I have done some series with 1 1/2 stop gaps in this location, and I will try a
...Show more

Issue is not number of frames but more probably the dynamic range, you have 11 stops + 9 stops = 20 stops DR and you try to mangle it to single image; good luck... I'm not sure how HDR image with this much DR could be created with tone mapping; I'm having the two slider in first box at +10(max) already with 3 bracketed images with 1 2/3 stops steps, and if DR would be even higher it's just matter raising DR to get halos.

The HDR glow etc. is not much relevant to how many stops or how many shots used; it's 99% created in the tone mapping/exposure fusion phase when 32-bit HDR is converted to normal image. Check the image in 32-bit HDR format and it should not contain any glow etc. You can check this easily saving the 32-bit HDR image and view it in PhotoShop and it should not contain any halos etc.

Central shot not being central causes the issue that you have to lighten or darken image during tone mapping/exposure fusion, and PhotoMatix doesn't have very good controls for that. Lightness slider should do it but that is the last thing I want to touch since it ruins image so easily. When correctly shoot your image comes correct brightness without adjustments.

I have tendency to shoot too dark. I mostly shoot HDR to avoid white skies, and forgetting my own advice/rule I cause a lot of issues and lost time in computer - should always trust HDR and exposure for middle exposure "normal". Instead of compensating one should shoot more frames (hard to do with Canon non 1-series...) or increase from 1 1/3 stop to 1 2/3 etc.




Norway 2009 holiday photos, somewhere near Kvœnangsfellet with Contax Vario-Sonnar T* 3.4/35-70 @ ~40mm, f/8, 1/20s - larger


Samuli



Jun 01, 2012 at 08:47 AM
cyra
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p.106 #20 · Zeiss Lens Photos and Discussion


carstenw wrote:
Another shot from the Haus der Offiziere, ZF.2 21/2.8 wide open, 9 shots, this time with Fusion - Adjust:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/urbex/CW_20120520_NikonD3_0001-4-2.jpg


to my eyes this looks much to bright, and that gives it a fake look. In light conditions like this, you would not ge such even lighting, and you could see nothing in those back corners. Maybe HDR isn't all that apropriate to this very-dark-just a-few-rays-coming-in kind of setting.

I'd prefer something like this to get the feel of the place.
http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1371/U1371I1338567378.SEQ.0.jpg

there is something funky going on with the blues though, and I way decreased saturation as well.
just a quick attempt...
I really like many of your HDRs and find your approach interesting.




Jun 01, 2012 at 11:06 AM
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