p.1 #1 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Hi all, I'm currently a Sony shooter with a pretty well rounded kit but I'm Leica/rangefinder curious. I've been doing lots of "Google research" on what my options might be to test out if I like using a rangefinder. I've got around $3,000 I can spend, and I have a M mount Voigtlander 35mm f/1.7 that I adapted to Sony which I'd be happy with to start. The Sony gear would stick around, so I don't need a full suite of lenses right now.
M8 - Crop sensor, not really interested in going back to that
M9 - First full frame, sensor might be a noticeable step back IQ wise from my Sony FF, have to find one with a replaced sensor or risk corrosion.
M-240 - Seems like a good "entry level" choice, newer sensor. Thicker than other M cameras for some reason?
MP-240 - Upgraded buffer from the M240? Honestly wasn't finding much that indicates it's a big upgrade from the M240.
M10 and beyond - Probably beyond my pay grade right now, so not sure I want to know how wonderful they are. M10 still seem to go for over $4,000 which is a lot of money to find out if I like the system.
That's generally where I'm at right now, have I missed anything important?
p.1 #2 · Help me understand Leica model differences
I had the M9 (M-E version), the M240 and now the M10r.
Skip anything before the M240. Lots of issues w the M8 but not worth listing because the biggest deal is it is a crop sensor.
Skip the M9 ESPECIALLY if it has not had the sensor replaced with the newest version. The sensor will corrode. Every single one I’ve seen that did not have the latest version had corrosion. Mine corroded twice within 1.5 years and it was stored in a dry box when not in use.
Other issues w the M9? The absolute worst shutter button feel on the planet. Weird gritty action and extremely noisy. Garbage rear LCD that you cannot use to check focus with as the resolution is too low. Really finicky with memory cards. Max useable ISO is about 640. No live view.
M240? Should never have sold mine. A bit fatter than the M10 series but basically that is because it has a fatter battery and better battery life. Rock solid, no issues. Best deal in used Ms. How I used it, it was perfect. But I was tempted by the dedicated ISO dial on the 10 series which I love and so traded for that.
But really for general use the M240 did everything I wanted.
p.1 #3 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Thanks, that's basically the same rundown I got from the only photographer I know who shoots Leica.
He did recommend looking for the M240 because the MP240 wasn't much of an upgrade, so that seems like the best option for where I am right now. I think either would be fine for me, just a matter of what is on the market.
p.1 #4 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Leica M Digital bodies deft rational thought. It's better to consider handling and shooting style because nothing is like a Rangefinder/Frameline camera and, at least for me, found myself taking very different types of photos with it. It improved my photography substantially.
Despite them all being aperture priority capable you really want to avoid Leica's 1990s off-the-shutter-curtain metering and shoot manual.
M8 is a charming camera. The crop isnt APS-C but rather 1.33 which is oddly convenient because unlike so many APSC sensors you can get a 28mm equivalent easily. Typical focal translation here:
21 = 28
28 = 35
35 = 50
50 = 65
The sensor is uber thin, and with the last few MM of the image circle cropped off it makes every lens pretty sharp.
Downsides: shutter that sounds like it's going to explode. IR contamination on any synthetic black fabric (requires IR cut filter which makes your lens look demonic 🤘 ). However it also cranks out really great B+W files because of that contamination - essentially looks like you are shooting super-panchromatic film (think Agfa Aviphot Pan 200)
Color output is unique and up to your tastes but I like it. Monitor is useless.
To sum it up its like shooting an M7 (aperture priority film camera) with a digital sensor slapped inside of it.
Oh, and most of them have dead pixles, sometimes an entire dead line of them. Usually find at ISO 100 but will show up at anything above that, especially in the shadows.
Like I said, charming (quirky) camera. It's $1500 asking price sounds high, sure, but also consider that's like the price of an M3 and 10 rolls of film processed.
M9: no experience with it. Color output never impressed me but people love 'em.
M240: an actual modern CMOS camera. Not really fatter than the M8/M9 but heavy as a lead brick. LED projected framlines are nice and crisp. Backside monitor is not great (mine was always too contrasty and cool toned).
Output is solid and flexible. Not quite Sony/Fuji/Nikon sensor level but dial in -1/3 stop of exposure to save highlights and you are generally ok.
Oh, also live view. Laggy but not nearly as bad as people make it. If you are shooting slowish things you shoot with adapted lenses well enough.
p.1 #5 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Oh, also, if you want to know the risk of Leica ownership go to MPB and see how much they will uby various models for (get an online estimate). I bought my M8 for $1450 and a few months later sold it to MPB for $1400. $50 loss is pretty low risk!
p.1 #7 · Help me understand Leica model differences
If you step up to the M10 your risk is low. You will get your money back if you don't like it. It is a fantastic entry point into the Leica M system. I have an M11 but so far cannot bring myself to sell my M10-P.
p.1 #10 · Help me understand Leica model differences
theHUN wrote:
I find the lack of monochrome in this thread disturbing.
Consider the M246!
I love when other photographers shoot monochrome, but never like the results when I attempt it. I'm a graphic designer, I think I need color to function.
I didn't realize the M262 even existed, but I like the idea of having live view so I think I'd lean towards the M240.
p.1 #11 · Help me understand Leica model differences
I think you have gotten some really good advice here.
I have had the M9, M10 and currently have the M240, I also shoot Leica as a 'fun' system alongside my Sony, so for me when I shoot the Leica, the ultimate IQ is less important than the RF experience.
With that I think the M240 is the sweet spot giving you a modern camera (CMOS sensor, live view, EVF add-on) with the same Rf experience as all of the Leica's. Yes, the M240 weighs a little more and is tiny bit larger than the M10 or M9, but honestly it's just barely noticeable. The M240 a great place to start on the Leica journey, if it becomes your main system because you just love shooting with it, then you can consider 'upgrading' to the M10/M11without losing much on the M240. If, like me, you like shooting with the Leica but also have another system to complement it then I think the M240 is ideal (unless money is no object...)
p.1 #12 · Help me understand Leica model differences
formula4speed wrote:
I love when other photographers shoot monochrome, but never like the results when I attempt it. I'm a graphic designer, I think I need color to function.
OP has and will keep the Sony, so I would get the Leica for things the Sony cannot do - monochrome.
p.1 #13 · Help me understand Leica model differences
A Leica M10 used is generally much cheaper than $4000 and they hold their value well. Personally, I would never buy anything before the M10, because of the old tech (M8, M9) or the heavy, relatively fat bodies before the M10.
That’s me though. If you’re not bothered by the bodies, you have more options.
p.1 #14 · Help me understand Leica model differences
You have the models…
M8 APSH sensor. CCD
M9 24x36mm sensor CCD
M 24x36mm sensor CMOS, video, optional EVF, lots of accesssories, long battery
M10 24x36mm CMOS sensor, smaller, no video, newer EVF with GPS.
M11, 24x36mm CMOS sensor, tri resolution, new EVF without GPS, perspective control, long battery, no removable base plate.
Then you have variants.
Mx-P. Mid series refresh. One or two extra features (like touch screen on M10-P but not M10).
MxM. Monochrom. B&W variant. Called something different for the *never using a number on an M again, M*.
MxR. High resolution version of the M10.
M-E. Keeping the older model after a refresh but with a different cover and reduced price.
Mx BP. Black paint variant. Wears to brass. The prettiest M’s.
M8 and 9’s. LOUD! Really loud shutter recycling. Issues with sensor, unless replaced. May need IR filters. Great b&w files. Short battery life. You love or hate the CCD rendering.
M (2xx series cameras). Massive battery life. Nearly useless video (your phone does better anyway). My personal pick for an entry to the world of M. Solid 24MP sensor. No real issues. Not actually that much bigger than M9 or 10. Around 2mm thicker. But it does LOOK bigger.
M10. Leica finally get it right. Only downside is reduced battery life. Improved RF. Great sensor(s). R variant is the first M above 24MP.
M11. Possibly my last M. I think it’s near perfect, until a BP variant is released……. As good as a 24x36mm sensor gets at the time of release. 60MP. Aluminium top plate (on black body) for weight saving.
If you get an M(240) or M-P you can try for a lot less than an M10 or M11 and resell for virtually no loss if you don’t like it or want to upgrade. CV lenses are awesome. You need a month to really make a decision.
p.1 #15 · Help me understand Leica model differences
formula4speed wrote:
I love when other photographers shoot monochrome, but never like the results when I attempt it. I'm a graphic designer, I think I need color to function.
I didn't realize the M262 even existed, but I like the idea of having live view so I think I'd lean towards the M240.
If you want to try out the rangefinder you don't need live view.
But yeah...basically if you can't get in the M10 series then get the 240/240MP/262 and be done with it. M8/M9 are just too slow really to be useful, yes you try the rangefinder but the rest of the experience will be so "bad" compared to modern day cameras you might save some money and get film one for the fun. Though the M8 is probably the cheapest of anything Leica M today.
p.1 #16 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Best price/quality ratio for used digital Ms is currently the M 240 series for sure. The std M 240 has 1 GB buffer memory. Two M 240-based cameras faster received 2 GB buffer: the M-P 240 (still more expensive) and the harder to find M-E 240 (I own the latter model). The larger buffer allows faster in-camera processes and has the same buffer size as used in the M10 series.
I personally like that the M 240 series offers video in the camera. It is the last M series which came with it - I don't often do video, but it is a nice-to-have function in the camera.
Skip M8 and M9 cameras IMO. Used M9s are significantly overpriced at the moment. And used M10s are still too expensive at the moment, too.
Battery life of the M 240 series is excellent as stated above. I previously purchased also a M 246 monochrome camera which uses the same batteries and external VF-2 viewfinder. The VF-2 - get the one from Olympus which is exactly the same as the Leica-branded one but cheaper - is a bit dated regarding EVF resolution but works okay. In case monochrome is of interest as special camera, here the ISO range is larger and the dynamic range of this modified sensor is a bit wider, too.
p.1 #17 · Help me understand Leica model differences
Thanks all. very helpful information.
Just missed out on an M240 on the B&S but I'll keep my eyes open. On the plus side, the longer it takes the closer I'll get to being able to afford an M10. Don't know if I've seen any under $4k yet, but I haven't been looking very long.
p.1 #18 · Help me understand Leica model differences
formula4speed wrote:
Thanks all. very helpful information.
Just missed out on an M240 on the B&S but I'll keep my eyes open. On the plus side, the longer it takes the closer I'll get to being able to afford an M10. Don't know if I've seen any under $4k yet, but I haven't been looking very long.
I personally would recommend first jumping ahead with a M 240 model and later potentially upgrading to a M10-R instead of a M10. The M10-R sensor is very different from the rest of the M10 series and better. The M 240 has more film-like colors whereas the M10-R has the best highlight recovery and resolution by using a Sony CMOS sensor (and comes with typical Sony color gamut similar to Sony A7R series). The std M10 is a bit redundant IMO when already owning a M 240 and normally not shooting at very high ISO levels.
p.1 #20 · Help me understand Leica model differences
To give some positive remarks on the M8 and M9:
M8
+ 28mm summicron is a great match, loved that lens on the M8.
+ It can be used for IR photography
+ The digital screen on top is nice
+ I loved the colors out of that camera. Sensor produced by kodak and it showed in my opinion.
+ Shutterspeed of 1/8000
M9
+ I like its body design over the M240
+ Sapphire LCD glass (m8.2 as well)
+ again lovely colors
