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Archive 2023 · Help me understand Leica model differences
  
 
retrofocus
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p.2 #1 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Bijltje wrote:
M8
+ It can be used for IR photography
True but also the M 240 cameras are well-suited for IR. Just takes a bit higher ISO and longer exposure times. The M 246 monochrome is excellent here. The M8's benefit for IR was also its debit at the same time: For color photos, not cheap IR absorbing filters had to be used on top of the lenses due to the lack of an ICF (IR absorbing layer) on the sensor glass.

+ Shutterspeed of 1/8000
Yes, wish such fast shutter speed would have been kept in future models.

M9
+ I like its body design over the M240
+ Sapphire LCD glass (m8.2 as well)
+ again lovely colors

I used the M9 for a short time before actually getting my M-E 240. I neither liked the M9 design more nor less over the M240 body. I don't find the hype of the CCD sensor in the M9 justified - the M240 gets almost the same colors and contrast IMO. This said, the M9 would indeed be a great deal if it came with replaced sensor for about $1500.


Jun 19, 2023 at 01:52 PM
formula4speed
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p.2 #2 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Well I snagged an M240 off the Buy & Sell, and I personally blame all of you for what I assume will be my financial ruin.
Jun 20, 2023 at 08:17 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #3 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Nice! What is great is it comes w an image leveling guide in Live View. Leica removed that feature on the M10 but put it on the M10p so you had to pay extra for it. Something that was standard on the earlier M240!
Jun 20, 2023 at 10:28 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #4 · Help me understand Leica model differences




formula4speed wrote:
Well I snagged an M240 off the Buy & Sell, and I personally blame all of you for what I assume will be my financial ruin.

Why should we suffer in poverty alone?
Jun 21, 2023 at 01:53 AM
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p.2 #5 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Rent one. But why are you even thinking about a rangefinder? What are you looking for that your current gear isn’t giving you?

Edit: I just read you got an M240. It could go either way with that camera. Good luck. I don’t know if it’ll be a keeper for you. Just pretend is film and don’t expect anything beyond what you would get from a film camera. The small buffer size and overall performance would just get me too frustrated.

At this point I wouldn’t go lower than an M10.


Jun 21, 2023 at 04:43 AM
Andrew CD
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p.2 #6 · Help me understand Leica model differences


formula4speed wrote:
Well I snagged an M240 off the Buy & Sell, and I personally blame all of you for what I assume will be my financial ruin.

Good for you. Far better to go ahead and try something rather than thinking about it ad infinitum as I tend to ….

For what it’s worth, I think an M240 is an eminently good option for establishing whether or not you wish to pursue the Leica M addiction. My first M digital was an M246 (I already had an MP film), which I was entirely happy with. I bought it shortly before it was replaced by a newer model — knowing that that was about to happen — but I didn’t find it lacking in any way.

As for financial ruin: join the club ….

Andrew
Jun 21, 2023 at 05:17 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #7 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Desmolicious wrote:
Nice! What is great is it comes w an image leveling guide in Live View. Leica removed that feature on the M10 but put it on the M10p so you had to pay extra for it. Something that was standard on the earlier M240!

...as well as the sometimes convenient to have video function (even this is heavily debated). IMO it was removed to avoid in-house competition with the then-released more video-centric SL series, but it was sold by Leica as focusing on "Das Wesentliche"...oh well.


Jun 21, 2023 at 07:09 AM
RexGig0
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p.2 #8 · Help me understand Leica model differences


formula4speed wrote:
Well I snagged an M240 off the Buy & Sell, and I personally blame all of you for what I assume will be my financial ruin.

Enjoy!

I became accustomed to using the Leica M system, by visiting a local Leica dealer, Houston Camera Exchange, in early 2018, to try a pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, on demonstrator and pre-owned M Type 246 and M9 cameras. The M10 had already been released, but supply had not yet met demand, so even laying eyes on an M10 was not yet possible. The 240 was the noticeably better user experience, compared to the M9, for me. (I was accustomed to Canon and Nikon DSLRs.) When the day came, that I entered the store to ask to buy the Summilux, I reckoned that I would be buying a pre-owned 240 camera, or, just might stretch my budget, to get a new 240.

The M Type 240 can still do everything today, that it could five years ago. Good cameras!

Fortuitously, the waiting list for new M10 cameras had just become a thing of the past; HCE had two new M10 cameras available. I got to experience the one advantage of the M10 that really mattered the most, in my circumstances; the viewfinder experience was better for those of us who wear eyeglasses.

Then, something, well, interesting happened. I fumbled and dropped my M10, within weeks of buying it, during a moment in time when it was wrapped in a neoprene wrap, rather than hanging properly on its strap. This dummy was not using the “dummy cord.” No external damage, but, Green Screen of Death. While my M10 was down, pending surgery at Leica North America, a pristine, pre-owned M Type 246 Monochrom appeared in the display case at HCE. Soon, I was experiencing the major advantage of the 240-series bodies, MUCH better battery life, while not even noticing the slight difference in fore-to-aft thickness, unless I thought to look for it. The difference in the viewfinder experience was there, but, not really an “issue.”

In hindsight, I could be using M 240/246/262 cameras, today, and not be less happy, except that only the 246 would do well at high ISO, in the dark. (The 246 actually outperforms the M10, in the dark.) The 262, and the rarer M-D 262, have a “minimalist cool” factor that I find appealing.


Jun 21, 2023 at 07:51 AM
formula4speed
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p.2 #9 · Help me understand Leica model differences


M10R wrote:
Rent one. But why are you even thinking about a rangefinder? What are you looking for that your current gear isn’t giving you?

Edit: I just read you got an M240. It could go either way with that camera. Good luck. I don’t know if it’ll be a keeper for you. Just pretend is film and don’t expect anything beyond what you would get from a film camera. The small buffer size and overall performance would just get me too frustrated.

At this point I wouldn’t go lower than an M10.

Fair question, I mostly want to try out of curiosity. Been shooting pretty seriously for decades and part of me always wanted to see what the hype was about.

I've also enjoyed manual focus lenses for a long time, but then I had a son and I just couldn't keep up and I've been relying on the excellent AF systems available to us. Meanwhile a friend and fellow photographer is shooting his family with a rangefinder and absolutely crushing it. I don't know if it is the rangefinder or him that was making such a difference in the results with manual focus, most likely it's a combination but it makes me want to take a shot at it.

I don't think the buffer will bother me, I don't even shoot bursts on my Sony. Never filled a buffer on any camera in my life. If I don't like it and I sell it a few months from now for a couple hundred less than I paid it's a relatively inexpensive experiment.
Jun 21, 2023 at 08:46 AM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #10 · Help me understand Leica model differences


RexGig0 wrote:
I fumbled and dropped my M10, within weeks of buying it, during a moment in time when it was wrapped in a neoprene wrap, rather than hanging properly on its strap. This dummy was not using the “dummy cord.” No external damage, but, Green Screen of Death.

I’m starting to read this a lot about the M10 series. One drop and the camera is done. I don’t recall this being an issue with the 240 or M9.
I also don’t read about other brands being so fragile. Kinda disappointing given how solid it feels. Or are there lots of 10s out there that have been dropped w nary an issue? I mean, the fact that it even has a catchy name!
Jun 21, 2023 at 09:14 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #11 · Help me understand Leica model differences


I am pretty rough on my gear Huss and I don't see the M 10 and M 10 M being any more fragile then my M 262, M-E or M9 Mono.


Jun 21, 2023 at 09:44 AM
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p.2 #12 · Help me understand Leica model differences


@formula4speed

Some people just like buying gear.

A rangefinder is not like anything else you’ve ever shot.

Probably the best way is what I mentioned. Pretend it’s a film camera and leave it in single shot mode.

The Leica rangefinder is my toolset. I would never go back to any other camera. But at the same time I would never recommend anyone to buy one. It’s not something you have to recommend to anybody.

I guess an M240 isn’t bad to experiment. Then get rid of it. I don’t know you’ll last with a rangefinder. It’ll probably just end up frustrating you.

If anything when I first picked up a Leica M my pictures got worse. I just enjoyed the process more.

@Desmolicious

My M10R is the most reliable camera I’ve ever owned. 2 years (almost) going. You think other Leicas will survive a drop? I mean I guess it depends on the drop.

Any camera can completely break if you drop it.


Jun 21, 2023 at 12:58 PM
bjhurley
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p.2 #13 · Help me understand Leica model differences


formula4speed wrote:
I've also enjoyed manual focus lenses for a long time, but then I had a son and I just couldn't keep up and I've been relying on the excellent AF systems available to us. Meanwhile a friend and fellow photographer is shooting his family with a rangefinder and absolutely crushing it. I don't know if it is the rangefinder or him that was making such a difference in the results with manual focus, most likely it's a combination but it makes me want to take a shot at it.



It's worth reading this great blog post by Johnny Martyr on rangefinder focusing techniques: https://johnnymartyr.wordpress.com/2022/02/02/seven-recommended-rangefinder-focusing-techniques/

I was pretty frustrated when I first started shooting a rangefinder but once I switched to zone focusing and pre-focusing it's actually faster than manual focusing or even autofocus on a mirrorless or (D)SLR. If you're used to shooting wide open it's not going to work very well; with my rangefinder I'm rarely wider than f4 unless I have a lot of time to adjust focus (e.g. portraits of sitting subjects, statues, flowers, other things that don't move much). But f4 can be workable even in dark locations for fast-moving subjects; see https://johnnymartyr.wordpress.com/2023/04/18/manual-focusing-in-the-dark-slr-vs-rf/

Overall I find the rangefinder to be a primitive and limiting technology compared with mirrorless or DSLR, but if you adjust your shooting style to work within those limits it can be enjoyable. You can apply many of the same techniques with any kind of camera, of course, and I find if I shoot with both eyes open on a mirrorless camera I have no problem seeing what's coming into the frame, similar to the vaunted advantage of a rangefinder framelines. But I am growing to like the experience.
Jun 21, 2023 at 02:14 PM
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p.2 #14 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Just sounds like people with GAS. That’s all this is.

If you really think looking through an EVF and focus by wire or focus peaking is the same thing as shooting a rangefinder then you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I don’t know why anyone needs to get used to it or force themselves into shooting rangefinders. Just don’t buy one. Anyone who buys a Leica M knows this is their tool. You just know. You don’t have to try it. You pick it up and you’re home instantly. It’s instantly better than anything. You don’t need to get used to it.


Jun 21, 2023 at 02:39 PM
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p.2 #15 · Help me understand Leica model differences


An Evf is like going to a house with the most amazing view over a lake and a mountain and whatever and at sunset you setup a camera and stay inside and watch the sunset on a TV that the camera streams to because the sofa is more comfortable and there are no insects. Just stay home. Me, I'd be there with my feet in the water setting up the 4x5 and getting savaged by the midges and mosquitoes.

Sorry just joking. Everything has its use. I just haven't found one for the Evf yet but I'm sure I will. Others have and that's cool though.


Jun 21, 2023 at 04:18 PM
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p.2 #16 · Help me understand Leica model differences


formula4speed wrote:
Well I snagged an M240 off the Buy & Sell, and I personally blame all of you for what I assume will be my financial ruin.

Congratulations. Enjoy your new camera.

I use this text for any Leica newbie. Hope it helps.

Focusing an M isn’t rocket science. And it’s not a gift. It’s a skill. You learn it and then you practice it to get better. Stop practicing and you lose your edge.

1. The RF is actually very precise. But it’s a mechanical device. It can be knocked out of whack. You can check pretty easily by comparing infinity on the lens to the RF patch. Also have a lens cloth with you at all times. You need to keep the RF windows clean. I just have a small one in every pair of pant/shorts I own. They go through the wash with them.

2. ALWAYS focus from one direction. It’s how you get fast at RF focusing. Racking back and forward will slow you focusing down. SOme people do prefer to have a set point around 1.2 to 1.5 meters so they can use zone focusing. I find that slower in general use, but very useful in some circumstances. It’s not my default.

3. Use a good stance. This will matter later. Feet spread a bit and at 45 degrees to your subject if possible. It’s the most stable platform. You’ll be rocking sometimes so stability of foot is important. For vertical shooting see whether hand over or under is more stable and stick with that.

4. Line up your eye. You need to learn to have your eye in the middle of the VF. Elbows under the camera etc. You don’t get the IBIS crutch here so it’s up to you to be steady. Also if you’re not right eye dominant see if you can learn. I’m left eye dominant but learned to shoot my M’s right eyed. Took about two months.

5. Start from infinity and turn in one smooth motion to your focus point. Practice. Practice. Practice. You can get VERY quick at this. At one point I could follow a bride walking down the aisle with a 90mm Summicron wide open. Can’t do that well now because I don’t use an M every day. Take your camera everywhere and practice focusing. Watching TV at home? Practice focusing during the ads. Practice in low light. Learn that you can tilt the camera to get a focus line and then until without moving.

6. If you miss the focus point slightly you then rock forward or back slightly to correct. Again, this will become instinctive if you do it often enough. But you’ll get good enough you do this less and less often.

7. Have a *start point* and return the camera to that after the shot(s). For me it’s infinity, f4 and ISO 200. When I raise my camera I know what my settings are and I can count clicks to get to where I need to be quickly and reliably.

8. Start learning stopped down and with a high ISO and progress from there. As above I start at f4. I’ll take a shot, knowing I can be slightly sloppy with my focus. If I want something faster, then I’ll open up. I can shoot those two shots in less than a second. Later you’ll get to a point where you can set the camera as you raise it for wide open shots and take a single frame. Generally though I still take two frames. One at f4 and the other….. As you get better drop the ISO until you reach your personal handheld speed. The speed you’re regularly getting no motion blur. It’s different for everyone. I used to be better than I am now. And I aim for 1 stop over that so I know almost all my images won’t be affected by camera shake.

9. F8 and be there. Zone focusing. If you stop down to f8 or f11 you should also learn some tab positions. With the tab at the bottom you have focus tab 1.2m and approximate DoF of 20cm at f11, with a 50mm. Learn where 0.8 and 3 meters are. Then you don’t need to look to focus at all. I know that two arm lengths is about 1.5 meters. So I can guess my focus distances, mostly. So I know, even if I am focusing that a subject that close means the tab will end up somewhere down the bottom.

10. Leave the EVF at home, if you buy one, while you’re learning. If your RF is calibrated you don’t need it and it’ll just slow down the learning process. I use my EVF for my WATE, 135 APO and if I’m shooting on a tripod.

11. Maybe stick with one lens for a while. Learn it. Then add another.

12. Have fun. That’s the whole point….

Gordon
Jun 21, 2023 at 05:45 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #17 · Help me understand Leica model differences


The Leica M Typ 240 is a great camera choice. It was the first rangefinder I used and I wish I had kept it. It has a beautiful black exterior and, as others have mentioned, the battery lasts a long time. There were issues with banding in the shadows and the highlights didn't hold much data, but they were easy to work around. Overall, it had better dynamic range and ISO performance compared to the M9, although I found the M9 images to have a unique quality.

Nowadays, I suggest saving some money and getting an M10. Not much has changed in terms of the rangefinder and image quality since it was introduced. Currently, I use an M10-R and I absolutely love it.

Enjoy it!


Jun 21, 2023 at 06:31 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #18 · Help me understand Leica model differences


airfrogusmc wrote:
I am pretty rough on my gear Huss and I don't see the M 10 and M 10 M being any more fragile then my M 262, M-E or M9 Mono.

yah, I don't plan on dropping my 10r (or any camera!) just surprised to hear that there is a common phrase now being used in the unlucky event that the drop was damaging - Green Screen of Death!
Jun 21, 2023 at 06:36 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #19 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Great summary!

flash wrote:
Congratulations. Enjoy your new camera.

I use this text for any Leica newbie. Hope it helps.

Focusing an M isn’t rocket science. And it’s not a gift. It’s a skill. You learn it and then you practice it to get better. Stop practicing and you lose your edge.

1. The RF is actually very precise. But it’s a mechanical device. It can be knocked out of whack. You can check pretty easily by comparing infinity on the lens to the RF patch. Also have a lens cloth with you at all times. You need to keep the RF windows clean. I just have...Show more →
Jun 21, 2023 at 07:35 PM
RexGig0
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p.2 #20 · Help me understand Leica model differences


Desmolicious wrote:
I’m starting to read this a lot about the M10 series. One drop and the camera is done. I don’t recall this being an issue with the 240 or M9.
I also don’t read about other brands being so fragile. Kinda disappointing given how solid it feels. Or are there lots of 10s out there that have been dropped w nary an issue? I mean, the fact that it even has a catchy name!

My M10 landed flat on it back, on brick pavers, from shoulder height, as I was climbing into my 2014 Toyota Tundra, a rather high-clearance vehicle. I am right at six feet tall, so, the drop distance was considerable. The Tenba wrap prevented actual exterior damage, but is a very thin layer of neoprene, so, could not offer much of a cushion. The momentum of my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH certainly did not help the camera, though not being an engineer, I am not sure that it made things worse.
Jun 21, 2023 at 07:48 PM
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