I am currently looking for an inexpensive (under $200.00) ink jet printer capable of producing photo quality (not necessarily museum exhibition quality) images. Size is not much of an issue as most of the images I plan to print won't exceed 8"x10"; most will be 4"x6" or 5"x7". The purpose will be to print snapshots for friends and family. For anything larger than 8"x10" I will have it printed at an online lab.

I currently own an Epson R2400 and I am not too happy with it. The color management needed to obtain a decent print is ridiculously complicated (imo). Also, ink cartridges don't last very long and are difficult (make that impossible) to find locally. I have opted to use it almost exclusively for black and white prints.

I would like to purchase a printer that needs very little (if any) color management work; hopefully a plug and use, fully automatic printer that can simply be plugged into my computer and can print decent snapshots that look like actual photographs. Also, I would like the ink cartridges to be readily available at any Office Max or Office Depot store. In addition, I'd like to be able to use any type of paper on it unlike my current R2400. (Yes, there are "specialty papers" available on the market other than just Epson brand, but not at any of the stores in my area).

I know that this type of inexpensive printer exists out there. I have seen many printed photographs taken by people with bottom of the line point and shoot cameras and inexpensive printers; people who I know are not nearly as obssessive as I am about photography. Yes, the prints were not museum competition quality, but they resembled if not exceeded the images obtained at local photo labs. Great for family and friends snapshots.

Any opinions on the Canon ip4700 Pixma ink jet printer? I am not "brand faithful" in any way, so I am willing to try anything. I am not happy with Epson as the only two Epson products I own are not that great (Epson R2400 and the Epson 4870 "pro" flatbed scanner; the scanner was absolute garbage, felt I was ripped off by Epson marketing on that one), so any other printer advice would be preferable.


p.s. Yes, I know I can probably get small inexpensive prints made up at the corner drug store, but unfortunately the ones in my area are notorious for either damaging prints or providing the lowest quality images possible. Even speaking with the managers has not worked for me. I prefer the idea of spending a tad bit more (ink and paper) at home instead of having to deal with the frustration of going through the local labs in my area.

You can simplify color management with most printers, probably even the R2400. All you need to do is take camera JPGs and print them using the printer driver that comes with the printer.

You could get a little dye sublimation printer for 4x6 glossies. Just load your memory card and push the print button.

Since a lot of people here love their Epson printers you might not get too much sympathy.

A cheap, non-color managed printer is going to give you cheap, non-color managed results that, if you are lucky, might be better than the corner drugstore or maxi-mart can give you.

You don't need our advice to achieve those results, just buy any sub$200 printer and go to it.

But don't come back complaining about how your prints don't match your screen, because they won't.

<Chas>

You avoid the problem of prints not matching the screen by not looking at pictures on the screen. That's how it used to work with film.

Bobster2 wrote:
You can simplify color management with most printers, probably even the R2400. All you need to do is take camera JPGs and print them using the printer driver that comes with the printer.

You could get a little dye sublimation printer for 4x6 glossies. Just load your memory card and push the print button.

Since a lot of people here love their Epson printers you might not get too much sympathy.


Too many variables when it comes to color management! I have obtained decent prints with my Epson R2400, but color management is not my biggest problem. I have several framed prints (color and B&W) hanging on my walls made with my R2400. The costs involved in using my R2400 are much more expensive than I would like; paper costs are high, print cartridges are not available locally. It is too expensive (and time consuming when I have to deal with the color management) when it comes to giving nice little snaphots to friends and family. Grandma does not own nor does she intend to ever own a computer, so emailing her the images is not an option (yes, I gave her a digital picture frame, but she finds it too difficult to use even though it runs by itself with a simple SD card).

Also, the kids like to play with the pictures; putting them in small photo albums to show their friends, scrapbooking with them, etc. Again, very wasteful having to print with my R2400. Family members love to get prints of the family parties (no, I don't just simply give them a CD and ell them to print it themselves if they want to- some are older family members without computers).

I'm sure that an inexpensive printer will do the trick.

cwebster wrote:
A cheap, non-color managed printer is going to give you cheap, non-color managed results that, if you are lucky, might be better than the corner drugstore or maxi-mart can give you.

You don't need our advice to achieve those results, just buy any sub$200 printer and go to it.

But don't come back complaining about how your prints don't match your screen, because they won't.

<Chas>



I have seen images from many sub $200.00 printers. Some look terrible, some look nice. Not all printers, regardless of the price, produce the same results. I am quite sure that someone here has had postive experiences with an inexpensive printer and will (hopefully) share his/her findings. I can go and read the specs of several dozen inexpensive printers, but that will mean absolutely nothing. I have purchased many items in the past based on specs alone (like my Epson 4870 scanner) and they turned out to be absolute garbage. No, I don't mean deffective, I mean not producing results that the manufacturer boasted about, then breaking down, bad customer service, lack of parts avaialability, etc.

Real-life experiences with products are the best way to measure their effectiveness imo.

I have experience with a 4x6 dye sublimation printer, the Sony DPP-EX5. It makes great looking snapshots with no worries about color management or anything else. That model is no longer made, but I assume newer models are at least as good.

You must be doing something wrong. Are you using original Epson inks in the Epson R2400.
I only print with the Matte Ink on Matte Radiant White paper. and Love it. Colors and especially B&W...
Go on ebay and look for deals.
Grab the Epson R1900 if you want Glossy stuff.
Grab the Canon Pro 9000 if you enjoy printing wide format.
the rest is really up too you, since you dont like the R2400, really cant help you then.

I look at color management to be a liberation not a problem. I no longer have to make 3 or 4 or more prints to get one I like. I printed commercially with ink jet with 3rd party inks for 5 years, about 2 years in I started to linearize and profile everything and my costs went way down. Now with a Canon iPF5000 I just print, don't always hit what I want on the first print, but it is close. This is using Canon inks and stock profiles.
All my experiences with cheap printers has been bad, no profiles, not available. Hit or miss printing just doesn't make it. Also ink costs in letter sized printers is terrible. The ink carts have gotten smaller and smaller. I personally wouldn't even think of one for photo printing. Look at the small dyesubs, though they cost a lot per print too.
I have spent years doing darkroom printing, you just have to accept the costs often there is no way around it. With my Canon a fairly good analysis is 4x6s $.25 (always with cheap paper), 8x10's $1.25 (maybe more depending on the paper). 16x20s $5-9 depending on paper. Again color management has kept the price down.

Tom

AHPZuazua wrote:
You must be doing something wrong. Are you using original Epson inks in the Epson R2400.
I only print with the Matte Ink on Matte Radiant White paper. and Love it. Colors and especially B&W...
Go on ebay and look for deals.
Grab the Epson R1900 if you want Glossy stuff.
Grab the Canon Pro 9000 if you enjoy printing wide format.
the rest is really up too you, since you dont like the R2400, really cant help you then.


Yes, I am using original Epson inks and Epson paper. I am absolutely certain I am doing something wrong. My biggest problem is that I absolutely hate color management. It is the reason why I sometimes consider going back to using film. It is frustrating, unituitive, needlessly complicated, and has so many ridiculous combinations that I feel nothing but complete apathy whenever I turn on a printer.

I have spent hundreds of dollars on ink and paper, also hundreds of hours researching info on color management, hundreds of hours applying useless techniques only to produce mediocre (at best) prints. Did I mention that I hate color management?

I believe that there should be absolutely no reason why I should have to adjust my monitor as well as my printer in order to get decent prints. The pictures I take with my D200 look perfect on my computer screen. If I were to post a picture of an image taken straight from my camera, everyone on the planet would see the colors exactly as I shot them. If I adjust my computer screen just to please my printer, I would be ruining the original image. I understand that I need to set my printer to get good images, but there should be absloutely no reason to have to adjust my monitor.

Here is a perfect example. These two images are the same. The first image has been processed to look pleasing on my screen. The second is what I had to do to it to make it print like what the first image looked like on screen:

Update:


I just recieved my Canon Pixma ip4700 today. Thank goodness I am getting older and there were no hammers nearby me today! Installing the printer head was a nightmare. I don't understand why they didn't install the dumb thing at the factory like the rest of the cheap parts they slapped together. Despite reading and re-reading the instructions several times, I found it almost impossible to fit the printer head into the slot. Installing the ink cartridges was messy. After setting the printer up I printed a few pictures in "simple" mode. They were nice and bright and had an extremely warm orange appearance. So much for ease of use. Of course, there was the usual drop down menu with over a million possible color management combinations. After 20 or 30 experimental prints (trying to get rid of the extremely warm appearance of the prints), I decided to call it a day and turn everything off. I was looking for a simple, inexpensive printer to make a few hundred prints. Looks like I'm back to square one again in the color management asylum. This is really starting to get old.

Color management is not that difficult....but sorry to say looking at those 2 photo`s you have a color management problem for sure. Their is no reason for that much difference. Mybe look for a Color Management course some where......local collage or something. It`s not hard and once you learn the basics you can stop waisting money and start producing beautiful prints......Peter

Peter Le wrote:
Color management is not that difficult....but sorry to say looking at those 2 photo`s you have a color management problem for sure. Their is no reason for that much difference. Mybe look for a Color Management course some where......local collage or something. It`s not hard and once you learn the basics you can stop waisting money and start producing beautiful prints......Peter


Unfortunately there are no color management courses in may area. The closest place I can think of would be Tampa which is about 200 miles away from me. I wouldn't mind driving there on a weekend or two, but I would hate to sign up for a course so far away only to find out that the instructor doesn't have a clue about this subject matter. I recently signed up for an unrelated class in my area and it was cancelled due to lack of enrollment.

CM does not HAVE to be as complicated as many seem to make it, as long as you follow some very simple rules (that were equally important in the film days!!!).

Each of your working steps (capture, edit, print) have to be individually controlled, from a central, neutral point of view (often referred to as being the PCS, profile connection space). If each point is TRULY neutral and well mapped to this PCS, they are interchangeable with ANYTHING else as long as that also is truly neutral. You can change either camera, screen or printer without getting any large swings in general colour balance.

Capture - that's your camera profile, and (optionally) you raw-converters screen interface.
Edit - that's your screen profile and picture editor's (photoshop?) screen interface
Print - that's your printer /paper / ink profile.

Of course details may change - different cameras have different metamerisms, and different maximum gamuts, different screens will limit your view of the picture gamut in different way and different printers/papers/inks will also have different minimas/maximas - but in the end a CM'd workflow makes your life so much easier.

What are you printing FROM, and in which system, with what settings?

-and NO - thinking that "everyone on the planet" sees your pictures exactly as YOU see them on YOUR screen is a big mistake... :-)

snegron, if you have not done so, find a calibration image and print it on your pixma 4700. If your printer driver setup is correct it will look very good. This should provide you with confidence in the printer.

Now judge what you see on your monitor vs the test print. Chances are your monitor brightness will need to be turned down. Probably a lot.
After you turn down the brightness you can fine tune with your video card settings through the control panel ie brightness contrast gamma etc.

This is the poor man's calibration often referred to as aesthetic calibration. Not as good as the real thing but will bring you to being able to print very nice images for family and friends.

examples of calibration image:
andrewdarlow.com/calib.html

Purchase a ColorMunki which will calibrate both your screen and printer quickly and easily.

You're kidding...Right??

My biggest problem is that I absolutely hate color management

Sad, because it is the key to your dilemma.

The whole point to calibration and correct use of printer profiles is to ultimately simplify the process.

You have to have a viable monitor, a video card that accepts calibration and the tools (software & puck) with which to calibrate. The other step is to print using profiles specific to your printer in programs (PSCS3 or 4; Indesign) that support the use of profiles.

In view of your apparent difficulty in grasping all of this (not meant as a slam) perhaps you should write down the steps to make yourself a ready reference card.

Ultimately, the process shouldn't be that hard.

It might help to know what your system is composed of; people who are more technically adept than I am (pretty much everybody) may be able to spot problem areas and warning flags.

Color management doesn't have to be hard.
Have a monitor and video card that can be adjusted, I use 2 old but good CRTs, a Lacie and a Sony so in a way I'm lucky, way more adjustable than an LCD. If you have a cheap LCD and it is being a pain to adjust, get a Dell 2209Wa, about the cheapest ips LCD on the market.
Get your brightness setting below 110 (can't remember the units). Calibrate the screen.
If you are on a PC set the color management in your printer driver to default to off, from the start menu, settings, printers & faxes(I'm on an XP unit now) set it there and you can't make the mistake of not turning off color management, you can always turn it back on if you have to.
Have an editing program that is color aware, even Photoshop Elements is fine. Go to print, have the program manage colors, set your profile here, with earlier Photoshop versions you had to use "Print with Preview"
Profiles, are a matching of ink, printer and paper. Most printers are good enough now that the canned profiles from paper manufacturers are good enough, maybe not perfect but good enough for a nice print. If you change the paper use the profile for that paper, you need to do that now until you are more confident. If you change the ink you need to make a new profile ALL inks are different. So if you are using 3rd party inks a ColorMunki is not a bad idea.
So if your monitor is calibrated you have the right profile for paper/ink/printer, the right paper, you should knock off a good print without trying hard. Seriously this is all I do.

Tom

tomm101 wrote:
Color management doesn't have to be hard.
Have a monitor and video card that can be adjusted, I use 2 old but good CRTs, a Lacie and a Sony so in a way I'm lucky, way more adjustable than an LCD. If you have a cheap LCD and it is being a pain to adjust, get a Dell 2209Wa, about the cheapest ips LCD on the market.
Get your brightness setting below 110 (can't remember the units). Calibrate the screen.
If you are on a PC set the color management in your printer driver to default to off, from the start menu, settings, printers & faxes(I'm on an XP unit now) set it there and you can't make the mistake of not turning off color management, you can always turn it back on if you have to.
Have an editing program that is color aware, even Photoshop Elements is fine. Go to print, have the program manage colors, set your profile here, with earlier Photoshop versions you had to use "Print with Preview"
Profiles, are a matching of ink, printer and paper. Most printers are good enough now that the canned profiles from paper manufacturers are good enough, maybe not perfect but good enough for a nice print. If you change the paper use the profile for that paper, you need to do that now until you are more confident. If you change the ink you need to make a new profile ALL inks are different. So if you are using 3rd party inks a ColorMunki is not a bad idea.
So if your monitor is calibrated you have the right profile for paper/ink/printer, the right paper, you should knock off a good print without trying hard. Seriously this is all I do.

Tom

Thanks Tom! I am currently working on a PC laptop with LCD screen using Windows XP, Photoshop CS2. The printer is a Canon ip4700, ink is the standard ink it came with, paper is Canon Photo Paper Plus Glossy II (4"x6" size). I didn't see the paper profile in the drop down menu for this particular Canon paper. I remember downloading paper profiles for Epson a couple of years ago, however, when I went to the Canon website there was no updated paper profile info to download.

The only choice I get from the color management tab in the Printer Properties box is to either set to to automatic or manual; no "off" slection possible. It is highlighetd on CNBJPRN3.