I'm sure in a couple of years the price drop percentage-wise will be similar to the used prices of M8's a couple of months ago.

Technically the quantum leap you speak of was only about 1.46x increase. Similar to the Canon 7D->5D-II jump. If we're talking RRP's of new cameras.

Wilfredo wrote:
The Canon 5D Mark II has really satisfied my need for a FF high resolution camera, with low noise. I'm enjoying it more than any other Canon I have previously owned.

I do to. It is a truly amazing camera and IMHO reasonably light.

atufte wrote:
Wilfredo wrote:
atufte wrote:
I also have a Canon kit, but it's not much larger than my Leica M2+50, and get's a lot of use, just because it's so compact... (5D2+Nikkor45P)

Can you say a bit more about that Nikkor 45P on the Canon? How do you like the image quality?




Hi Wilfredo

The Nikkor 45 P is actually my favorite lens for the 5D MKII, and is a stellar performer on this camera, and the fact that it is super compact makes it perfect...(for my liking at least) :-)


How would you say it compares to Leica glass? Can you post a picture or two? Where did you purchase the adapter?

thrice wrote:
I'm sure in a couple of years the price drop percentage-wise will be similar to the used prices of M8's a couple of months ago.

Technically the quantum leap you speak of was only about 1.46x increase. Similar to the Canon 7D->5D-II jump. If we're talking RRP's of new cameras.


Thrice,

That may be the case technically but when you start out at $4795.00 US (which is what I paid for my M8 brand new) and go up to $7000.00, as far as my pocket is concerned, that's a quantum leap. When you compare a Canon 5D Mark II at $2700.00 to a Leica M9 at $7000.00 you do end up feeling a bit short changed, at least if you are in the modest income bracket.

I'm in a very modest income bracket, I've saved for years to accumulate the photographic equipment I now own.

I have also sold much of my Leica SLR gear to fund the M9. I also own a 5D Mark II, but I will likely have to sell that too once the debt collector arrives.

It's all about priorities and what a camera is going to do for your photography. I understand if you haven't budgeted for such a camera, I saw the writing on the wall and started saving long ago.

If you're happy with the M8, then that's all that matters. I need the extra res and the wideness of my wide angles, so that's all that matters to me and is why I need an M9 and not an M8.

Strictly some subjective thoughts here, coming from the POV of a long-term SLR shooter (Canon and Nikon) who just lost my rangefinder virginity to an M9 after a suitably long courtship. I LOVE IT.
And this has nothing to do with pixel-peeping image quality comparisons, etc. And certainly its not because of value for the dollar. I'm just having an absolute blast and change of mindset. It requires more concentration, its helping refine my technique, it has my thinking 'what shot can I get with this equipment' rather than 'which equipment do I need to carry for this shot'. And I'm coming home with superb images, so I'm a happy camper.

You know, maybe it is value for the dollar:
M9 $6995
3 lenses $4800
Enjoying photography this much again: Priceless

RCicala,

What lenses did you buy? I've spent 5+ for 2 lenses. I might need help shopping.


Daniel,

"It's all about priorities and what a camera is going to do for your photography." Well stated.

James R wrote:
RCicala,

What lenses did you buy? I've spent 5+ for 2 lenses. I might need help shopping.



I tried a buffet: Voigltander 50 f1.1; Zeiss 35 f2; Leica 28 Elmarit

Figured I can upgrade when I find which focal lengths I live at although I think I want to at least try out a 75mm too.

thrice wrote:
I'm in a very modest income bracket, I've saved for years to accumulate the photographic equipment I now own.

I have also sold much of my Leica SLR gear to fund the M9. I also own a 5D Mark II, but I will likely have to sell that too once the debt collector arrives.

It's all about priorities and what a camera is going to do for your photography. I understand if you haven't budgeted for such a camera, I saw the writing on the wall and started saving long ago.

If you're happy with the M8, then that's all that matters. I need the extra res and the wideness of my wide angles, so that's all that matters to me and is why I need an M9 and not an M8.


Thrice,

You clearly have your priorities in order. I applaud you for that. We all have different experiences and needs and opinions about what a product should cost. I personally don't think the price tag for the M9 is justified, and I won't rationalize the price tag in order to make the purchase. For you, it is obviously justified, even if you have to give up some of the gear you've been using to purchase it. If that works for you, and it serves your needs, then by all means it is the right move for you.

We both have a right to our opinions and we can disagree on the issue of price. In the end it is a subjective matter, what works for you is not universal and what works for me I recognize is also not universal.

I look forward to seeing some of the great photography you will produce with the M9.

WWW.BenitezRivera.com

thanks for the post Thrice, I was struggling to justify the cost myself this morning, then went to the Leica store in London today to see if they had a demo model I could play with - they did and I was blown away by it. So simple, so lovely to use, the test shots in the shop were better than I expected too.

But as I walked out of the shop I was knotted up with guilt about paying 10k on a new camera, but I had lunch with a client just after that and he was talking about getting to age 60, loads of money in the bank, no kids, no time to play and my mind was made up - I phoned the shop and gave them my credit card number for the deposit.

For once in my life, I can afford it so I'm going to get it. If i lose my job and need to sell it in a year, then so be it. My wife woudl only waste the money on shoes anyway...

fixedgearmike wrote:
But as I walked out of the shop I was knotted up with guilt about paying 10k on a new camera, but I had lunch with a client just after that and he was talking about getting to age 60, loads of money in the bank, no kids, no time to play and my mind was made up

Yes, learn from that guy, and *empty* your bank account I think there might be other possible lessons to learn from him, but this one is clearly the most pleasant, and there is no brand like Leica for emptying your bank account.

I am still very happy with my M8 and am sitting on the fence over the M9. I might wait until the spring.

When/if the M9's price drops drastically, it will be much MUCH more attractive to me.

Fair call Wilson, Leica's prices can be quite out there some times, I know this all too well.

It's a bit irresponsible but I only shot a landscape (in the sense of tripod+filter+sunset+waiting) the way I usually do for the first time with an M yesterday. Great fun with the M6 and I must say I actually set up and took each shot much more quickly than I did on the SLR. A couple of primary differences:

Accurate distance scale - I use hyperfocus and even with the best adapters the distance scales on my lovely manual lenses weren't accurate at all and I would have to use live view. These manual lenses are fine on their native mounts.

Big bright finder - I use one of the new Zeiss Ikon accessory finders with my 25mm and it is ridiculously bright & beautiful. Sure you can have a bright view with a canon or native EF lens but then you lose your distance scale (save for the Zeiss ZE line, that is true). Stop down metering is fine but I would usually compose and then switch to live view for focusing, just a slow process to be honest.

Not having to worry about mirror lockup - Well obviously rangefinders have no mirror, I don't have a cable release though, which is something I'll have to pick up.

Light weight - well this is obvious, but clamouring over rocks it is nice not to have your balance thrown by a weighty shounderbag or backpack.

We'll see how the shots come out, I'm dropping off the roll today, I bracketed the shots so I could blend them but who knows, I used a polariser which might have brought the sky down enough. I'm a bit annoyed I didn't take a longer lens with since the sunset was rather small, but intensely red.

RCicala wrote:I'm just having an absolute blast and change of mindset. It requires more concentration, its helping refine my technique, it has my thinking 'what shot can I get with this equipment' rather than 'which equipment do I need to carry for this shot'. And I'm coming home with superb images, so I'm a happy camper.


That's funny, I feel much the same way about my new GF1/20mm combo. Just sayin'.

So with the arrival of the M9 I knew I needed to decide if I wanted it before I did anything stupid. I had no real experience with "serious" rangefinders so I decided to buy a zeiss ikon and biogon 35/2. My adventure lasted 7 weeks. Cant say anything bad about the camera or the lens, everything was exactly as they had told me they should be. Also, I dont know exactly what it was that put me off it. Although I dont usually shoot a lot of 35mm format, I gave this camera a good go, about 25 rolls in total. I slowly realised that I basically didnt want to shoot it anymore. No idea why, it just happened. I know that you're supposed to persevere for more than 8 weeks before you get in the flow of working with an RF, especially if you're a fast shooter like me, but I just didnt see the point. There was nothing special in the camera or the photos to make me stick around, I just didnt feel the love... The photos from my Hexar AF just looked better. Nothing to do with image quality, just more interesting photos, better composed, better light, better content. The Hexar suited my shooting style better and after a while I simply used that and left the Ikon home. So I sold it.

Point I'm trying to make: you can read up and discuss a camera on the internet as much as you want, but sometimes its the intangibles that make a camera right for you or not. And you will never know until you try, so do that, try with something cheap(er) first. I would hate it if that had happened to me with a $10k camera and then I had to take a $2k hit by selling it. Now I'm happy I did things that way and I got it out of my system with practically no financial loss (I got a good deal on the ikon)

Here is the C/Y Zeiss equivalent to the Nikkor 45. I've added a focus tab for quick focus.

fixedgearmike wrote:
M9 or something else?

Something else.

To stay on topic:

My M8 cost a third of a M9. I loose a stop due to the more advanced M9 sensor sensitivity. I loose an effective 1/2 stop due to the fact that a wide angle leica lens gets less wide on a M8. I loose an effective 1/2 stop of shallow DOF due to the 1.33x crop. But I have a M8 and love it.

Spyro P. wrote:
So with the arrival of the M9 I knew I needed to decide if I wanted it before I did anything stupid. I had no real experience with "serious" rangefinders so I decided to buy a zeiss ikon and biogon 35/2. My adventure lasted 8 weeks. Cant say anything bad about the camera or the lens, everything was exactly as they had told me they should be. Also, I dont know exactly what it was that put me off it. Although I dont usually shoot a lot of 35mm format, I gave this camera a good go, about 25 rolls in total. I slowly realised that I basically didnt want to shoot it anymore. No idea why, it just happened. I know that you're supposed to persevere for more than 8 weeks before you get in the flow of working with an RF, especially if you're a fast shooter like me, but I just didnt see the point. There was nothing special in the camera or the photos to make me stick around, I just didnt feel the love... The photos from my Hexar AF just looked better. Nothing to do with image quality, just more interesting photos, better composed, better light, better content. The Hexar suited my shooting style better and after a while I simply used that and left the Ikon home. So I sold it.

Point I'm trying to make: you can read up and discuss a camera on the internet as much as you want, but sometimes its the intangibles that make a camera right for you or not. And you will never know until you try, so do that, try with something cheap(er) first. I would hate it if that had happened to me with a $10k camera and then I had to take a $2k hit by selling it. Now I'm happy I did things that way and I got it out of my system with practically no financial loss (I got a good deal on the ikon)


Good advice. Personally, I wouldn't put out 2K on a new system that was Greek to me. Not sure shooting a Zeiss film camera gives you a feel for a Leica M9. I'd rather rent a Leica M8.2 or 9 for a few days and then decide.

Nahhh few days are not enough for me. And I've had a chance to play with Bessas and Leicas in the past, switch the red dot around and I couldnt tell them apart.

Wilfredo wrote:
atufte wrote:
Wilfredo wrote:
atufte wrote:
I also have a Canon kit, but it's not much larger than my Leica M2+50, and get's a lot of use, just because it's so compact... (5D2+Nikkor45P)

Can you say a bit more about that Nikkor 45P on the Canon? How do you like the image quality?




Hi Wilfredo

The Nikkor 45 P is actually my favorite lens for the 5D MKII, and is a stellar performer on this camera, and the fact that it is super compact makes it perfect...(for my liking at least) :-)


How would you say it compares to Leica glass? Can you post a picture or two? Where did you purchase the adapter?

Hi again Wilfredo

I think it performs well compared to Leica glass, the margins/difference is so small you would not notice the difference, and i have been using the best Leica M glass for over 15 years...

(the only difference will be the sensors with AA filter VS without, but i feel i get at least
as sharp images with my 5D2 as i did with my M8's, since the 5D2 files handles USM very well...)

But right now i using the Zeiss Biotar 58, and what a gem this lens is, i don't think i ever have found a lens with so much personality/characteristics, i just wish i had found it before...


Here's the adapter of choice for my alt lenses:

http://haodascreen.com/ear.aspx

snowboarder wrote:
fixedgearmike wrote:
M9 or something else?

Something else.


Wow... constructive, go troll elsewhere. Offer something useful or stay out of the thread.

Incidentally Spyro, I bought my M6 without having ever looked through a rangefinder window. I got a ridiculously good deal on it at an auction when a local store closed down, and I love shooting with it. It can be a little slow, but for what I do that suits me fine. All up I spent about 2500 on that with a lens... but I sold the lens in the end and bought a whole heap of other ones

thrice wrote:
snowboarder wrote:
fixedgearmike wrote:
M9 or something else?

Something else.


Wow... constructive, go troll elsewhere. Offer something useful or stay out of the thread.

Incidentally Spyro, I bought my M6 without having ever looked through a rangefinder window. I got a ridiculously good deal on it at an auction when a local store closed down, and I love shooting with it. It can be a little slow, but for what I do that suits me fine. All up I spent about 2500 on that with a lens... but I sold the lens in the end and bought a whole heap of other ones

Snowboarder is just generally anti-leica, just ignore it!

JimBuchanan wrote:
To stay on topic:

My M8 cost a third of a M9. I loose a stop due to the more advanced M9 sensor sensitivity. I loose an effective 1/2 stop due to the fact that a wide angle leica lens gets less wide on a M8. I loose an effective 1/2 stop of shallow DOF due to the 1.33x crop. But I have a M8 and love it.

Those half stops are actually closer to one stop each. Further more, you can lose another stop because there are no affordable 28/1.4 lenses for M8 (not even unaffordable), but there are affordable 35/1.4's for M9. But if you're more into a normal lens, that's not the case of course.

That said, I've also got myself an M8. And I'm very happy with it so far.

Wow... constructive, go troll elsewhere. Offer something useful or stay out of the thread.

Incidentally Spyro, I bought my M6 without having ever looked through a rangefinder window. I got a ridiculously good deal on it at an auction when a local store closed down, and I love shooting with it. It can be a little slow, but for what I do that suits me fine. All up I spent about 2500 on that with a lens... but I sold the lens in the end and bought a whole heap of other ones

Good stuff
BTW thanks for the tip on luxecase, I just bought a strap and its excellent. The guy was really easy to deal with too.