trajan wrote:
roanjohnnyc wrote:
The first company that can stick a full-frame sensor in a compact camera (without a mirror) in a body similar to the GF1 or even G1 will get my business!!!

+1

+2

But my bet is on Sony

Tariq Gibran wrote:
to zone focus with the X1, you must use the LCD screen (because the wheel turns freely and after 2 meters, the next distance is infinity!) AND the camera does not go back to the set focus point after it has been turned off. He also found shutter lag to be over 1 sec. for a full press shot, about three times as long as the Panasonic GF-1 takes.

and don't forget the quality of that LCD
He also complains about the wheel itself, the position etc...
Did they do anything right in this camera?
I could as easily make one in my garage, I would buy the sensor from Sony, what the heck,
I would even buy the Sony hirez LCD Put all the pieces together and sell it as
"Supa-dupa Fly" for $5000. I bet some people would think - it's expensive, it must be good...
Isn't this how Leica operates?

edwardkaraa wrote:
trajan wrote:
roanjohnnyc wrote:
The first company that can stick a full-frame sensor in a compact camera (without a mirror) in a body similar to the GF1 or even G1 will get my business!!!

+1

+2

But my bet is on Sony


Rumour has it that you just described Samsung's new GX series camera. Due Dec 10 with the NX (APS-C) version.

roanjohnnyc wrote:
The first company that can stick a full-frame sensor in a compact camera (without a mirror) in a body similar to the GF1 or even G1 will get my business!!!

Don't forget, if it is a full-frame sensor, everything is going to be larger and heavier than with a smaller one. A lens for example, that must maintain performance across a FF sensor is much larger, heavier and more expensive than one that "only" deals with APS-C, let alone compact-size sensors. There will be no free lunch, only tradeoffs.

Phil, have you ever handled a yashica t4 or olympus mJu? The lenses and cameras are ar small as the current compacts.

snowboarder wrote:

and don't forget the quality of that LCD
He also complains about the wheel itself, the position etc...
Did they do anything right in this camera?
I could as easily make one in my garage, I would buy the sensor from Sony, what the heck,
I would even buy the Sony hirez LCD Put all the pieces together and sell it as
"Supa-dupa Fly" for $5000. I bet some people would think - it's expensive, it must be good...
Isn't this how Leica operates?



The X1 is definitely disappointing. If it were $1k, I'd consider it (already taking into account the build/brand premium).

For what it's worth though, the M9 and S2 are unique. The M9 is still the smallest full frame digital camera, and the microlenses are superb (as compared to m4/3rd's). Likewise, the S2 is the sharpest output I've ever seen from lenses wide-open, and they've fit a medium format sensor into a body the size of a 5D...

AlanD wrote:
snowboarder wrote:

and don't forget the quality of that LCD
He also complains about the wheel itself, the position etc...
Did they do anything right in this camera?
I could as easily make one in my garage, I would buy the sensor from Sony, what the heck,
I would even buy the Sony hirez LCD Put all the pieces together and sell it as
"Supa-dupa Fly" for $5000. I bet some people would think - it's expensive, it must be good...
Isn't this how Leica operates?



The X1 is definitely disappointing. If it were $1k, I'd consider it (already taking into account the build/brand premium).

For what it's worth though, the M9 and S2 are unique. The M9 is still the smallest full frame digital camera, and the microlenses are superb (as compared to m4/3rd's). Likewise, the S2 is the sharpest output I've ever seen from lenses wide-open, and they've fit a medium format sensor into a body the size of a 5D...

The outpus from the S2 is competitive, but you should see what other MF Digital is producing. The new PhaseOne/Schneider 80/2.8 is incredible based on the samples I was seeing at the recent CaptureOne 5 launch event here in Toronto. Sharp wide open at 100% crop on a P65+ back with default sharpening. The optics available for the Hy6 system are equally good (both Schneider and Zeiss) and the Fujiblad optics are up there too.

The big deal on the S2 is weather sealing and body size. IQ is competitive, but unlike the 35mm format market Leica's S2 lenses are playing against other makers with similar approaches to optical design. The MF market is not terribly willing to accept cheaper but merely good optics at the present time (and neither would you when you're putting $5000 primes onto $30,000 cameras).

And now MR`s update where he mentions that Sean Reid has found another possible flaw in that the aperture closes down itself when your trying to manual focus.

Doesn`t anybody test these things before they get launched?

dave chilvers wrote:

Doesn`t anybody test these things before they get launched?

Apparently, not photographers but engineers.

dave chilvers wrote:
And now MR`s update where he mentions that Sean Reid has found another possible flaw in that the aperture closes down itself when your trying to manual focus.

The GF1 will do the same thing if it's really bright out - I would assume this is because there's a finite range the sensor can manage without overloading, so for Live View it has to stop down to keep within that range.

snowboarder wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
to zone focus with the X1, you must use the LCD screen (because the wheel turns freely and after 2 meters, the next distance is infinity!) AND the camera does not go back to the set focus point after it has been turned off. He also found shutter lag to be over 1 sec. for a full press shot, about three times as long as the Panasonic GF-1 takes.

and don't forget the quality of that LCD
He also complains about the wheel itself, the position etc...
Did they do anything right in this camera?
I could as easily make one in my garage, I would buy the sensor from Sony, what the heck,
I would even buy the Sony hirez LCD Put all the pieces together and sell it as
"Supa-dupa Fly" for $5000. I bet some people would think - it's expensive, it must be good...
Isn't this how Leica operates?



You are hereby officially the new leica hater Congratulations!

By the way, I would love to see your garage, it must be one heck of a place..

Haha yeah somebody hand the guy a medal

I would ask Richard, but his dislike has some basis in personal taste and is slightly more rational and backed up. Note I said slightly. If you try to lose all rationality and objectiveness I'll give you a medal too Richard. I do hope Richard is noticing a lot of the recent Karbe designs have a noticeable 3D-ness to them - when shooting a scene that lends itself to such results.

The X1's problems seem to be related to firmware. I think Leica should have waited to bring this project to fruition. The M9 needs a firmware update, and they have yet to get the S2 out the door. Luckily the M9 sales should keep the company afloat for a good while longer so they can hopefully get some competent software engineers to crank out some decent firmware.

thrice wrote:
The X1's problems seem to be related to firmware. I think Leica should have waited to bring this project to fruition. The M9 needs a firmware update, and they have yet to get the S2 out the door. Luckily the M9 sales should keep the company afloat for a good while longer so they can hopefully get some competent software engineers to crank out some decent firmware.


If Leica is going to become a company that matters in this digital era, they are going to have to learn how to successfully do more than one thing at a time, and learn how to continually upgrade and improve their products. They can no longer produce a product and then rest for 5 years.

Lotus, you are correct of course, but the problem is that Leica's business is too small to fund the development that the competitors are putting into their products. Leica must, over time, I am afraid, stick to non-electronics, like Zeiss, or sell out to a sugar daddy. The obvious candidate is Sony...:-(

I would have thought the obvious candidate would be Panasonic...

Sorry, my bad. You are right of course.

However, the X1 has a Sony made sensor, given Sony & Panasonic have a bitter rivalry who knows what could happen!

philber wrote:
Lotus, you are correct of course, but the problem is that Leica's business is too small to fund the development that the competitors are putting into their products.


Quite true. That is Leica's main issue, as I see it.


philber wrote:Leica must, over time, I am afraid, stick to non-electronics, like Zeiss, or sell out to a sugar daddy.


Are there enough Belgian dentists to make that happen? ;-)

Seriously, it will take an investor with foresight, vision, and serious management capabilities. With the M9 and the X1 (and a lesser extent the S2) Leica has proven that they can produce relevant, compelling products (regardless of whatever weaknesses they may or may not have). I don't think they need to sell out to a big partner (like Panasonic), but investment is needed to build and/or enhance capabilities at Leica to get the many necessary jobs done. If I were running a private equity fund right now, I would be looking at Leica right now to complete the strategic and management transformation that will allow them to effectively compete in this marketplace.

I think they can remain a high-end niche player (albeit a bit bigger than they are now), I think it is actually getting easier to do this (technological resources are increasingly less concentrated, more readily available, and the competitive advantages of individual company tech leadership are declining). The the hands or an enlightened investor, I think Leica can have a bright and independent future.

Leica's current owner is a multi-billionaire and a big Leica fan, who has pumped a lot of money into Leica, buying up small specialist suppliers, rationalizing, streamlining, and so on. I think we just need to wait. If you look at the sheer number of products put out in the last two years, it is quite astounding, especially when you realize that it includes a 50/0.95, 24/1.4, 21/1.4, Leica M9 (with a solution for the FF corner vignetting/IR problems which prevented the development so far), and the S2, perhaps the most interesting and visionary product in the MF space in 5 years, in addition to the new X1, a fixed-lens high quality sensor camera, which caters directly to Mike Johnston's DMD dreams (except price, probably), a risky but interesting bet. If Leica's gamble pays off, they could end up pulling ahead in a market segment or two, or maybe even defining new ones. This is not a company which is resting on their laurels. They do need to continue to work on QC, but the M9 release was already much better than the M8 release, so there is progress there.

People may like or dislike Leica as they choose, but it is hard not to be impressed with their accomplishments, apart from the mentioned QC issues.

carstenw wrote:
If Leica's gamble pays off, they could end up pulling ahead in a market segment or two, or maybe even defining new ones.


Pulling ahead of whom and in what segments? I do agree that they might help define a new segment of two. But at their current prices and sales volumes, they have a long way to go before they pull ahead of anyone.