For pricing, this is all from Newegg, and if I had that budget, this is what I'd get:

ASUS M4A78T-E AM3 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - $92.99

AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 140W Quad-Core Processor - Retail - $195.99

Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model 991657 - Retail - $53.99 (x4)

PNY XLR8 VCG98GTEE1XEB GeForce 9800 GT 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail - $114.99

Western Digital Caviar Blue WD800AAJS 80GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $34.99 (x2) (Windows installation on one and scratch disk on the other)

Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST31000528AS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $89.99 (x2) (data disks)

LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail - $31.99

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro RSA00-AMBAJ3-US 1000W ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V v2.92 SLI Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - $179.99

COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail - $139.99

OKGEAR 18" SATA II Premium Round Cable, Support up to 3 GB/S Model OK18ARS11 - Retail - $1.99 (x4)

Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders - $174.99

$1404.81

MichaelKirk wrote:
OK I'll be the one to ask the DIRECT question. This if for those "in the know" so to speak. Those that have some real computer knowledge.
I'm still tossing back and forth between PC and MAC but get so damn confused when I go to a site and try to build my own - I really have no idea and ofter end with a final build over $3,000.


27" iMac is gonna run about $2,000 - right!?

Can some post up a PC build in the price range of $1,250-$1,450 that will be as good as or better than the iMac. PC would be with Windows 7. Adding a 24-25" monitor is gonna add another $500-$650 so the final prices should be compariable.

let em rip!
Michael

I have worked on a Mac Pro (Dual 3.2Ghz Quad XEON, 18GB RAM) for the past year and just today switch back over to my trusty ole' PC after bumping it with an i7 975 CPU and Windows 7. I like the flexibility that the Windows systems allows to a system builder.

Truth be told though, I can get the same s**t done, no matter what the platform. It's so close in performance these days, the choice is ultimately yours by preference.

If you are getting the dual core, it is $1699, but if you want the quad core it will be $1999


santaliqueur wrote:
The 27" iMac starts at $1,699. 4GB memory, 1TB HDD. I'm sure if you copy the stats and assemble your own from Newegg, you can cut that price in half, if you ignore the "invisible" statistic of design/sleekness. I'm not saying it is worth it or not, but there is a cost factor in there.

To me, comparing stats of PC vs Mac makes no sense at all. I would NEVER use a PC, but only because I will not use Windows ever again. I appreciate Mac hardware, I love the software, but my real attraction comes from their unity. Having one company control hardware and software is a model I really like. I realize that PCs use most of the same components as Macs (with the exception of Mac Pros that get some Xeons far in advance of PCs), but having one company control everything is very appealing to me. I'd prefer the hardware to be a little cheaper, and I would very much enjoy a mid-range tower or a little better expandability in my Mac Pro, but I think everything comes down to what OS you prefer.

If you are thinking about a Mac, go into an Apple store and ask one of the employees to show you around the OS. It may not be something you like, but just check it out. And even if you bought a Mac and ended up not liking the OS, you could always run Windows if you wanted to. I'd say, decide what OS you like, and go from there.

DragonflyDM, why would you the mac now when Photoshop CS4 can use only 3GB of memory at the moment? As a recent Mac user, I'd say go for the PC and Windows 7 or go for the Mac, but install Windows 7 (I'm planning to do just that).

NightOwl Cat wrote:
For pricing, this is all from Newegg, and if I had that budget, this is what I'd get:

ASUS M4A78T-E AM3 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - $92.99

AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 140W Quad-Core Processor - Retail - $195.99

Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model 991657 - Retail - $53.99 (x4)

PNY XLR8 VCG98GTEE1XEB GeForce 9800 GT 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail - $114.99

Western Digital Caviar Blue WD800AAJS 80GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $34.99 (x2) (Windows installation on one and scratch disk on the other)

Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST31000528AS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $89.99 (x2) (data disks)

LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail - $31.99

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro RSA00-AMBAJ3-US 1000W ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V v2.92 SLI Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - $179.99

COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail - $139.99

OKGEAR 18" SATA II Premium Round Cable, Support up to 3 GB/S Model OK18ARS11 - Retail - $1.99 (x4)

Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders - $174.99

$1404.81



As said earlier (no I have not read every single message in this thread) this is a build-it-your-self package which will almost always work out cheaper - as long as you don't consider your time to be worth anything.

Do you do the same for your car? Do you buy a kit and build that, or do you buy a ready made car?

How about an Oven or Microwave? TV, DVD Player etc?

Adding a 27" screen does mean they are 'close' on price, and if there is a problem when you built it, now what? You may be able to figure out the problem or you may not, and for sure each party will blame the other. It may be that the third party drivers ended up not playing well together and for some reason the system is not stable or never even works as you originally hoped. Your configuration may be OK - but for others it may not.

Now, how much is your time worth? To you it may be free, but it you were charging some one to put a box together for them (and giving a warranty!!) - how many hours does it take to buy the parts (either in the store - or online) receive them - check them - then assemble the hardware? Now how long does it take to install the OS and all the drivers and fully test it? How much time 'could' it take to debug any problems you run in to with drivers, and how much is that time worth? If you were building this system for business (i.e. you wanted to earn money using it) you have to consider all these factors. Penny wise Pound foolish is the phrase. If the hard disk were faulty when you took it out of the packet / box, how much time & money would it cost to take the original back and get a replacement? How about the CPU or RAM? Any one component like this can cause a build failure.

Now, I'm not knocking self build PCs. I've built 12-15 PCs over the years, but what I am saying is that a $1400 kit + 27" screen can end up costing more than $2,000 if things don't go perfectly smoothly - and I've had that happen on more than one occasion.

The fact is that ready built PCs with "comparable specifications" and "build quality" to Macs are "not" significantly cheaper than Macs as many people claim, but often more expensive. I'm not talking about bargain basement PCs (there are lots around), I am talking 'quality' PCs using only the highest quality components. I'm currently running an 8 core Mac in the editing suite and the comparable Dell was $1,000 more expensive at the time we bought the Mac. Having said that - if you are heavily invested in software (excluding Adobe who cross grade very cheaply) you need to take software in to consideration too. It may even be that you choose your platform (Mac / PC / Windows / Linux) based on what software you want to run - and the hardware is chosen for you.

There is a partially valid argument around upgradability - but in the end the PC still gets thrown away - as does the monitor. While I still have my Dell 24" LCD, the other monitors I bought (15", 17", 19") have all either broken or been sold or are stuck in the loft idle because they are not up to today's task. So having a 'built-in' monitor on (say) an iMac 6 or 7 years ago would not have been any more wasteful than (say) a monitor with a home built PC from 6 or 7 years ago. Both have been changed by now. All the PCs built years ago are also now obsolete because I can't fit enough RAM, or they don't have PCI-E slots etc so can't be upgraded to the latest video cards either. The hard disks were IDE and now I need SATA. The older CD drives didn't read DVDs and the DVD drives didn't read/write BD so they are also now obsolete. In the end the only thing left was the case - which I replaced anyway. While you could have spent money upgrading any one part at a time, in the end you replace everything.

For some people money is tight and they are willing to use their spare time (for free) to build a PC from parts. Many people actually enjoy doing this as a hobby, and I am happy for them. There are others who do not feel competent to build their own and need to buy something that comes ready built with a warranty and support service. There is another group who simply don't want the hassle, or who take the cost of their own time in to consideration and choose to buy a ready made system because it actually works out cheaper than building/debugging their own system.

Folks, there is no right or wrong answer that covers all situations, and you need to decide based on your own situation. The O/S and software should be as much a consideration as the hardware itself, because in reality you are going to be spending a lot of time using it - and if you don't like what you have - then it's never going to make you happy.

DaveEP wrote:
Now, how much is your time worth?

DaveEP, since you quoted me responding to Michael's question, I was giving him an answer to his question which I had also quoted in my response, since he included his budget for the PC.

MichaelKirk wrote: OK I'll be the one to ask the DIRECT question. This if for those "in the know" so to speak. Those that have some real computer knowledge. I'm still tossing back and forth between PC and MAC but get so damn confused when I go to a site and try to build my own - I really have no idea and ofter end with a final build over $3,000. 27" iMac is gonna run about $2,000 - right!? Can some post up a PC build in the price range of $1,250-$1,450 that will be as good as or better than the iMac. PC would be with Windows 7. Adding a 24-25" monitor is gonna add another $500-$650 so the final prices should be compariable. let em rip! Michael

Yes, I build them for fun, and yes, I build them for work, and I have bought off the shelf as well. And yes, I build and fix them for friends and family as well. And yes, I was surprised a couple years ago when the off the shelf Compaqs I bought for work had ASUS motherboards in them

NightOwl Cat wrote:
DaveEP, since you quoted me responding to Michael's question, I was giving him an answer to his question which I had also quoted in my response, since he included his budget for the PC.

Yes, I build them for fun, and yes, I build them for work, and I have bought off the shelf as well. And yes, I build and fix them for friends and family as well. And yes, I was surprised a couple years ago when the off the shelf Compaqs I bought for work had ASUS motherboards in them

NightOwl Cat - Yes I realise I answered an answer - and I was not intending to pick on you - apologies if you took it that way. It was a general reply to every one who says that they build from parts and pieces and so it is always cheaper.

The question remains though - What value do you put on your time? If you say your time is FREE - then how many of you would like to come work for me full time for that same value - i.e. FREE ? Any takers? C'mon you said your time was FREE right?

For those who reply saying they get paid $xx per hour - so that's how they value their time - is that how they think their company values their time? We did a study and an employee getting paid about $20 per hour was really costing the company around $75 an hour when you took in to consideration all the benefits and overhead involved in employing them. So while their hourly rate was $20 to them, to the company it was more like $75. Most people don't realise this and really need to re-evaluate things.

So, if an employee took (say) 4 hours to build a PC and install the OS, with all the reboots required as Windows figures out which way is up with the latest service packs (yes I know it can be done quicker), and then installs the software (and all the MS updates that are required for security!), and when you take in to consideration the time to source the parts, assemble it and test it - not including any warranty work that may or may not be required - you just added another 4x$75 = $300 to the cost (from a company point of view). So a set of parts @ $1400 is really $1700, and that's without the monitor - or any one manufacturer to scream at when it doesn't all go to plan. The iMac or a pre-built PC sounds a little more competitive now.

Given how much employing people really costs (benefits, overhead and social security taxes) the likes of Dell do not make as much 'profit' as some people like to think.

I prefer to 'use' rather than 'build' computers now. I've built computers from the early days of DOS when the fastest motherboard you could buy was an 8088 (8bit bus version of the 8086) running at 4.77Mhz and the most RAM you could fit was 640K - though most came with only 256K or 512K. I've been through the 286, 386, 486, Pentium phases all the way up to Core 2 Duo. Frankly, I'm done. I will buy Macs from here on, because after I did a detailed study they ultimately worked out cheaper than building the stuff myself, having an employee do it for me or buying equivalent quality ready built PCs. I can run Mac OS, Windows or Linux - and even run them all at the same time (and often do).

Good luck to all who build their own. It's satisfying to see a machine come up first time, but if it doesn't, there is usually no one there to hold your hand. Piece of mind is worth much of what you thought you saved when the system you bought in parts and pieces isn't working and you have work that needs to be done.

Sheesh Dave, if you monetize it like that then *obviously* it seems idiotic to build your own PC! I suspect whoever is going to build their own PC has some interest in it and doesn't care that valuable time/money is spent on it. Heck I spend countless hours in post processing my photos and I make no money at all off of photography. I certainly don't calculate all my equipment and pro-rate what each printed photo costs.

I mean I catch your drift, but I think you're going a bit overboard, nothing personal.

and my post shows my computer ignorance. but for anyone that has read the entire thread - I'm pretty much a computer idiot much like a high percentage of users out there. My previous post ask more about not building a system ones self, but more about "ordering" a system where they build it for you.

So my questions should have been better stated asking about a comparable PC system to the iMac that someone builds for you such as the HP Z400 or I saw this one posted in a different FM thread:
http://www.avadirect.com/product_details_configurator.asp?PRID=14884

I tell you, buying a new computer system is as bad as buying a house and a car now

Michael

NightOwl Cat wrote:
DaveEP, since you quoted me responding to Michael's question, I was giving him an answer to his question which I had also quoted in my response, since he included his budget for the PC.

MichaelKirk wrote: OK I'll be the one to ask the DIRECT question. This if for those "in the know" so to speak. Those that have some real computer knowledge. I'm still tossing back and forth between PC and MAC but get so damn confused when I go to a site and try to build my own - I really have no idea and ofter end with a final build over $3,000. 27" iMac is gonna run about $2,000 - right!? Can some post up a PC build in the price range of $1,250-$1,450 that will be as good as or better than the iMac. PC would be with Windows 7. Adding a 24-25" monitor is gonna add another $500-$650 so the final prices should be compariable. let em rip! Michael

Yes, I build them for fun, and yes, I build them for work, and I have bought off the shelf as well. And yes, I build and fix them for friends and family as well. And yes, I was surprised a couple years ago when the off the shelf Compaqs I bought for work had ASUS motherboards in them

Buying computers may involve many decisions and it is a lot like photography.

Plenty of camps to be in (name your brand)

Plenty of options (body, lens, flash, case, cpu, graphics, etc)

Lots of performance comparisons!

Arguably - No right answer!

hyperion wrote:
from Zoetmb:

"I would have to boot the machine before I left my office to go to a client meeting, otherwise everyone would be waiting around for 15 minutes for the machine to boot-up."

Exaggerate much? And if your not, you have rocks in your head for not thinking something was wrong.

I love Mac and the OS we use as much as the next guy but lets not spread crap like this when there is some honest advice being given here.

This is not an exaggeration. It happened all the time. And it's not just my laptop -- other people in the office have the same problems. I finally "upgraded it" to XP and it's somewhat better. I was actually expecting to like Vista - I saw some marketing materials on it and I really liked the way the screens looked in that promotion. I was terribly disappointed with Vista. It was absurdly slow to boot and operate, it kept on bothering me with insanely stupid questions/confirmations, it would rarely connect to open wireless networks, etc. and it frequently failed when installing new updates. And one of the most annoying things it did was that even though I had it set to ask me, it would download updates while I was doing client presentations and it would slow the machine to a crawl.

I can't say that it crashed often, but it would get really, really slow causing me to have to reboot. People thought I was insane because I was constantly screaming at my computer.

No matter how much "protection" we give these PCs, they get tons of viruses, worms, etc. And sometimes, the utilities won't clean them up and we wind up having to reformat the hard disk. But it doesn't really help because if the viruses or worms were attached to any files, they just come back when those files are restored to the machine. And we're not downloading attachments to junk email or going to porno sites or anything of the sort.

You can say that the only reason this doesn't happen on the Mac is because the Mac has such a small market share, the hackers don't care about it and you'd probably be correct. But the Mac's smaller market share is actually one of the advantages to owning a Mac, just as it's sometimes easier to get personalized service from a smaller company as compared to a larger company..

I'm not a PC hater. As I've stated, I have both a tower and laptop in the office that are PCs that I use almost every day. I do design and I need to use Visio and obviously, there's no version of Visio for the Mac. But the best OS Microsoft ever produced was MS-DOS. It was fast, easy to use, efficient in memory and in disk space, etc. IMO, they've gotten it wrong ever since.

Ha! MSDOS was easy to use he says. Did you have fun playing with config.sys and autoexec.bat trying to get enough low memory?? Just saying

I think OP should just build his own and put on Win7 on it.

Yes, it was a challenge to see how high I could get it. 636k free was my best if I remember right

Avi B wrote:
Ha! MSDOS was easy to use he says. Did you have fun playing with config.sys and autoexec.bat trying to get enough low memory?? Just saying

I think OP should just build his own and put on Win7 on it.

For pricing, this is all from Newegg, and if I had that budget, this is what I'd get:

ASUS M4A78T-E AM3 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - $92.99

AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 140W Quad-Core Processor - Retail - $195.99

Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model 991657 - Retail - $53.99 (x4)

PNY XLR8 VCG98GTEE1XEB GeForce 9800 GT 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail - $114.99

Western Digital Caviar Blue WD800AAJS 80GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $34.99 (x2) (Windows installation on one and scratch disk on the other)

Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST31000528AS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive - $89.99 (x2) (data disks)

LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer - Retail - $31.99

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro RSA00-AMBAJ3-US 1000W ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V v2.92 SLI Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - $179.99

COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail - $139.99

OKGEAR 18" SATA II Premium Round Cable, Support up to 3 GB/S Model OK18ARS11 - Retail - $1.99 (x4)

Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders - $174.99

$1404.81

usual short cuts used by PC users:
- you are missing the display (around 500 USD at least for a 27" LED LCD), the keyboard, the mouse, and most likely some cables/molex/etc.

again you are using components for a desktop while the iMac is built on mobile platform to offer silent working conditions for hte end users, something you will not get at all even with a cool master case.
Try to do hte same math with the component found in the specific iMac model.

again as I said, the best computer is the one that serve your the best and with which you feel the msot comfortable.

When you put identical hardware in two boxes...and you get people to swear one is more elegant, user friendly, and in all ways superior...that is marketing pure and simple. I'm just saying.....an analogy to this thread is to argue about who makes the best cell phone case...I mean - really.

poisonpill wrote:
Sheesh Dave, if you monetize it like that then *obviously* it seems idiotic to build your own PC! I suspect whoever is going to build their own PC has some interest in it and doesn't care that valuable time/money is spent on it. Heck I spend countless hours in post processing my photos and I make no money at all off of photography. I certainly don't calculate all my equipment and pro-rate what each printed photo costs.

I mean I catch your drift, but I think you're going a bit overboard, nothing personal.

I completely understand what you are saying - and if a computer is purely hobby, nothing more, nothing less and you want to do it the cheapest possible way and give up lots of time for free (because it's a hobby) then I've got no problem with people building their own PCs - in fact it can be very satisfying and I encourage it. It's something I've done many times.

However, not every one does a good job and some of them end up either leaving bits out because they can't make them work (waste of money) or they build systems that are unstable (bad mix & match of parts and/or drivers - or even do a bad job of the CPU paste) and then they blame the OS when the computer keeps crashing. Some of them never even get a stable working machine, so how much did they really save?

As soon as you take the PC out of a purely hobby environment and start using it for other things, building your own makes less and less sense, and even for the vast majority of people wanting a PC for their home it makes little sense either. Just like a tiny minority of people like to tinker with raw files from a camera, only a tiny minority of people know anything about computers, how to build them and how to maintain them. If you are not one of those people, building your own can be a recipe for disaster.

As NightOwl Cat says above, he helps friends & family build/fix their computers. If NightOwl Cat wasn't around to help them what would they do? They would likely have to pay some one to fix something that may still be 'under warranty' in terms of the parts and pieces, but no one is going to help them 'under warranty' because it wasn't bought as a complete system.

Warranty is something that many people do put a monetary value on, which is why most people buy officially imported cameras & lenses even though they can buy unofficial imports cheaper - but without the warranty - and that's even after knowing that the unofficial import is identical - made in the same factory on the same production line - whereas the home built PC is almost guaranteed not to be identical to any other PC out there!

To go back to the OP, building your own Windows / Linux PC 'can' be done cheaper than buying off the shelf, if you assume your own time is free, not just to build it, but to debug it and fix it under warranty too if you have problems. Don't just add up the cost of the raw parts, add any shipping costs you may incur too. Don't forget to include keyboards, mice, monitors, internal SATA cables and any power adapter cables that may be needed. Don't buy the cheapest cables you can find either - but quality cables if you want a stable system. Pay attention to how much heat each component can generate and make sure you buy a case that is capable of diffusing that heat. Heat is a killer. Be sure you know what you are doing before you start, and take a very methodical approach to doing it. Don't cut corners because you are not sure what something meant - figure it out before you go on to the next step. If things don't go to plan, what is your plan B ? Having spent all that money, you better have a plan B.

Pavel wrote:
If you don't "get" what a Mac is about ... don't get one. Just like folks think Canon is better - and they are when you look at the specs. I mean you can get a 21 megapixel camera for the price of a 12 megapixel Nikon. What kind of idiot would buy the Nikon? I mean ... get real. Canon has so much more bang for the buck.

Of course there are those who care about little subtleties. Weirdos! ... And windows 7 is very much like Canon flash. When you are used to suffering any improvement seems like mana from heaven. Canon flash btw is fabulous. (As long as you ever get used to Nikon flash) Just ask the Canon folks. It is cheaper as well. But never-mind!






Funny

Some people get it and others don't. If you're looking for price to performance I wouldn't bother with the Mac. If you want beautiful elegant and simple design, forget the PC. There's more to it than 'features' and speed, the Mac is just a pleasure to use and certainly one of the nicest products you can get.
I would never consider placing such an ugly PC box with all its cables on my desk personally.

People who pay for designer clothes, cars, computers, furniture, etc. pay through the nose for an image. A fake image IMO, but an image none-the-less. I'm a down to earth guy, give me something that works and is flexible and is comfortable to use and does not cost too much, and I'll use that extra money for something more important and fun than maintaining an image.

But then again, I'm the kind of guy who buys mini-vans and pickup trucks because those are practical vehicles. Sports cars and luxury, while fun to look at and drive, are a waste of money to me.