hi,
may this topic is childish, but this would be my very deep dream of my cam.
and may be someone from leica, panasonic or Zeiss is reading here


... is an M-mount Fullframe Compact with ELV.
this should not be so difficult !
and i think if you cancel the complete rangefinder and mirror
technique the costs should be not 8K like the M9

this is just a little M9 mixed with GF1 and G1 ....


come one product manager !

yes you cam!

r

I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.
That said, I want nothing more in the camera world than an OM-1 sized camera with a FX sensor. The GF-1 is a great size but I just don't want to shoot anything smaller than a full-sized 35mm sensor. I also am not holding my breath for something like this...

cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

... don't want to shoot anything smaller than a full-sized 35mm sensor.

unfortunately, that's it.

r

Yakim Peled wrote:
I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.


I would be absolutely, positively, stunned if Canon or Nikon did a full frame mirrorless camera. In fact, I would be surprised if Canon in particular does anything other than put an APS-C sensor in some sort of fixed-lens super zoom similar to a G series camera. The market for a FF mirrorless camera is extremely small and doesn't justify the expense involved in developing and marketing a completely new lens line, which is exactly what they'd need to do - especially considering that that market is probably much more inclined to use the huge variety of 3rd party glass the mount would enable use with. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective for a company like Canon.

cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


Well, maybe not native, but look, we are here in the ALT forum, aren't we ? So as long as you can adapt M-lenses, that would still be a good shot. One thing I don't know : one advantage with the rangefinder is that it has nothing to do with the aperture setting of the lens. How can this be done with a EVF ? Asking because one thing I don't like with stop down is the fact that I either have to fiddle with the aperture ring after I focus, loosing precious time, or focus already stopped down with a dark viewfinder - on the SLR that is.
Still, Canon has abandoned rangefinders a long time ago as a top line system, so I doubt they will make such a thing even without the rangefinder, maybe also because it will be on top of the P&S range they have.

Regards,
Stefan

hi,
one thing makes me hope, i think ELV is much cheaper.
than rangefinder or mirror - see Panasonic or Olympus.

and of course they will make their own lens with no need to stop down.
or some how ....

r

slungu wrote:Asking because one thing I don't like with stop down is the fact that I either have to fiddle with the aperture ring after I focus, loosing precious time, or focus already stopped down with a dark viewfinder - on the SLR that is.


I think what the OP is referring to is a system more like the mirrorless Micro 4/3 systems being produced by Olympus and Panasonic, only full frame. So, no SLR or Rangefinding mechanism in it at all. In that case, the aperture thing isn't really a big deal unless you're in really, really poor light since the EVF or LCD just compensates for the loss of light automatically. And of course you automatically get a DoF preview.

Sam Bennett wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.


I would be absolutely, positively, stunned if Canon or Nikon did a full frame mirrorless camera. In fact, I would be surprised if Canon in particular does anything other than put an APS-C sensor in some sort of fixed-lens super zoom similar to a G series camera. The market for a FF mirrorless camera is extremely small and doesn't justify the expense involved in developing and marketing a completely new lens line, which is exactly what they'd need to do - especially considering that that market is probably much more inclined to use the huge variety of 3rd party glass the mount would enable use with. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective for a company like Canon.

Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.

Removing the mirror will make the DSLR cheaper, lighter, more reliable and with a host of new/improved features like faster FPS. We can see the first bud (translating from Hebrew here, meaning the first sign of things to come) in the EX-F1.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Yakim Peled wrote:
cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Put an EF or F mount lens on any M size camera and you have a real balance issue. Just image a Nikon 14-24 or Canon 85 1.2 on a Leica M9 (with live view for this hypothetical)....now try focusing....now try carrying it around your neck (without damaging the flange)....and what have you gained? Nothing, but you lose the advantages of their DSLR systems.

Yakim Peled wrote:
Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.

Then they'll no longer be SLRs. But again, what you say may be true but it doesn't mean Canon will be willing to throw out decades of lens designs and alienate millions of current customers to take advantage of mirrorless designs. Again, from a business perspective I don't see why Canon would do it.

Let me put on my Product Manager hat here for a moment (that's what I do in real life, fwiw). From a business perspective, staying with the status quo makes more sense for them in terms of SLRs. When they look at the Micro 4/3 market and the needs it's addressing, I suspect that "interchangeable lenses" will not be one of the core features Canon sees as being important there. I think they will see that better DoF control, better high ISO quality and higher Dynamic Range in highly responsive bodies as being the core values that the largest number of potential MFT buyers really want in comparison to P&S cameras and thus will provide a body that does that with a fixed lens while still providing an upgrade path into Canon's extremely well-established (and extremely profitable) dSLR system.

Sam Bennett wrote:
I think what the OP is referring to is a system more like the mirrorless Micro 4/3 systems being produced by Olympus and Panasonic, only full frame. So, no SLR or Rangefinding mechanism in it at all. In that case, the aperture thing isn't really a big deal unless you're in really, really poor light since the EVF or LCD just compensates for the loss of light automatically. And of course you automatically get a DoF preview.


Th EVFs are not there yet. The G1 becomes almost unusable at smaller aps with the framerate dropping real low and the noise real high. Certainly useless with MF whether its bright out or not.
One day they will be as good as OVFs but not yet.

Sam Bennett wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.

Then they'll no longer be SLRs. But again, what you say may be true but it doesn't mean Canon will be willing to throw out decades of lens designs and alienate millions of current customers to take advantage of mirrorless designs. Again, from a business perspective I don't see why Canon would do it.

Let me put on my Product Manager hat here for a moment (that's what I do in real life, fwiw). From a business perspective, staying with the status quo makes more sense for them in terms of SLRs. When they look at the Micro 4/3 market and the needs it's addressing, I suspect that "interchangeable lenses" will not be one of the core features Canon sees as being important there. I think they will see that better DoF control, better high ISO quality and higher Dynamic Range in highly responsive bodies as being the core values that the largest number of potential MFT buyers really want in comparison to P&S cameras and thus will provide a body that does that with a fixed lens while still providing an upgrade path into Canon's extremely well-established (and extremely profitable) dSLR system.

The DSLR segment will eventually flatten out in growth, and eventually the last field will be played out (small, inexpensive FF DSLR); new growth markets, from a business perspective are allways sought after.

One major advantage of a NIKON or CANON mirrorless INTERCHANGEABLE lens body is its ability to fully use the native AF lenses (D, DX, EF and EFS respectively). They then have a body that many DSLR owners may grab as a carry-on, or back-up to their extensive AF lens lineup. An optional lens line is also not out of reach given each company's RD department sizes.

Personally, I think we will see a mirrorless full-frame from the big manufacturers, and I don't think it'll be too long before it happens. They've opened up a large new market putting HD video on the cameras, and that segment isn't going to be satisfied long with the three inch screen on the back of the camera as their only viewfinder. It may just be my limited imagination (or an overestimation of how hard they'll work to satisfy video shooters), but I think it leads to a mirrorless solution and the end of the DSLR as we know it.

rsrsrs wrote:
may this topic is childish, but this would be my very deep dream of my cam.
and may be someone from leica, panasonic or Zeiss is reading here


We do this kind of wishing all the time in the this forum. Welcome to the play ground.

We can only hope that people from Leica, Zeiss, Panasonic and others read this forum. They would certainly be smart if they did.

These forums are about as good a market research and demographic tool as it gets. I hope they do.
...and if so, I want a FF mirrorless canon in polished aluminum finish!

dasrocket wrote:
These forums are about as good a market research and demographic tool as it gets. I hope they do.
...and if so, I want a FF mirrorless canon in polished aluminum finish!

Depends on the market you're studying, of course.

Add my name to that wish list.

I am for the moment selling off my FF stuff. I'm not happy about it but I have to go back to the G1. The last year or so I have noticed I get more out of focus images than earlier and I simply need a Live View viewfinder with the capability to enlarge the image for focusing.

It's great being able to focus precisely and handling the menu system and check the images all in the viewfinder and without having to put any reading glasses on.

I'm nice, neat and flexible and can adopt to the smaller sensor while waiting for the real stuff. Or maybe I'm not all of that, I'll just try to do what I have to do.

James R wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Put an EF or F mount lens on any M size camera and you have a real balance issue. Just image a Nikon 14-24 or Canon 85 1.2 on a Leica M9 (with live view for this hypothetical)....now try focusing....now try carrying it around your neck (without damaging the flange)....and what have you gained? Nothing, but you lose the advantages of their DSLR systems.


EF/F lenses are just the icing on the cake. With such a rich system it would be silly to throw them all away and start from scratch. Should you want to use them, just put the adapter and all is well. However, smaller and lighter lenses - naive to this new format - will be produced.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.