Hey Guys

I'm working with a photographer on this project.

pens

I think the photographers quote is fair, but my customer is cringing over the cost.

Anyone have opinions on what a project like this would cost?

I'm telling our customer, "the more finished product we have to shoot all at once, the more economical the photography will be".

We are suggesting the minimum batch of pens in one shoot be 25 for effective production. On the first batch the customer can provide 75 pens. We are trying to avoid this customer coming back with a hand full of pens once every couple weeks.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in Advance!

Chris

Can you give us a price range that your in if you don't feel comfortable giving the exact number?

If the customer doesn't cringe once in a while the fee is too low...
You could make up a couple pricing fees. 25 pens cost X and 10 pens cost X and 1 pen costs X...
Make single pen much more than the per pen fee to discourage one at a timin'

For 75 pens I think I'd go with a full-day rate and then throw in licensing, maybe fees for an assistant so i'm not going back and forth from the camera as much myself, then a dvd media fee and potentially an FTP access fee for them to download the images...

Depending on what you feel comfortable with, you could charge $1k+ pretty easily for a batch of 75 pens.

TTLKurtis wrote:
Depending on what you feel comfortable with, you could charge $1k+ pretty easily for a batch of 75 pens.

I should hope so, seeing as the going rate for catalog shots has been around $100 per since the beginning of time and $1K is dangerously close to most photographers' CODB.

TTLKurtis wrote:
For 75 pens I think I'd go with a full-day rate and then throw in licensing, maybe fees for an assistant so i'm not going back and forth from the camera as much myself, then a dvd media fee and potentially an FTP access fee for them to download the images...

Depending on what you feel comfortable with, you could charge $1k+ pretty easily for a batch of 75 pens.

When you say 'throw in' do you mean 'add on'? I hope so! Charging $1000 for 75 images is less than $15 per shot. And those pics you linked are not $15 shots...To shoot all in one 8 hour day, 75 shots means about 6.5 minutes per shot. Doable but far from an ideal situation.
It is sometimes hard to add on usage fees for catalog work, it's also hard to enforce. So maybe usage fees are rolled into the cost.
Don;t forget Photoshop work. Lots of times little things look pretty rough very close up.

Yes, I meant add on, not give for free. I may be mistaken, but it looks to me like those pens are all using the exact same lighting and exact same positioning. Once you get the first one set up, just leave the camera on the tripod and bang it out... Why would it take more than 5 minutes per pen?

Now, if there are multiple angles per pen, and different backdrops / lighting... that's totally different. But for a static setup, what's the problem?

I don't think there's a shot in hell of getting $7,500 for shooting 75 pens in that lighting setup, but I could certainly be wrong. They're somewhat pricey little pens, but still.

Let us know what you end up getting - would love to hear how this pans out.

Why would it take more than 5 minutes per pen? Because if you have 75 of anything to shoot you have to have some kind of system to ensure they are all shot, to link the frame numbers to the product numbers and to ensure that all 75 files are delivered.

Much of catalog photography is about organization, not photography. A friend got a shoot of 2000 purses. He had purses everywhere and had to hire 2 assistants just to deal with the administration.

<Chas>

Stay away from the day rate for catalog shots, that's how clients slide in a couple extra for free. Per piece pricing keeps everyone honest and no negotiations during the shoot which can suck the life out of the day.

Those aren't bic pens, but I bet even bic pays more than $7500 to get their pens shot...

cwebster wrote:
Why would it take more than 5 minutes per pen? Because if you have 75 of anything to shoot you have to have some kind of system to ensure they are all shot, to link the frame numbers to the product numbers and to ensure that all 75 files are delivered.

Much of catalog photography is about organization, not photography. A friend got a shoot of 2000 purses. He had purses everywhere and had to hire 2 assistants just to deal with the administration.

<Chas>


That sounds like an awfully easy problem to solve, bud. I'm not the client, so you don't have to make it sound more difficult than it truly is to justify a higher price to me. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard for the client to put these in a box with the product number (or something - or for the photographer to do it, whatever) and then you just snap a shot of the box number, then the pen after that - followed by a blank frame if needed. Wam, bam...

Brent Ward wrote:
Stay away from the day rate for catalog shots, that's how clients slide in a couple extra for free. Per piece pricing keeps everyone honest and no negotiations during the shoot which can suck the life out of the day.

Those aren't bic pens, but I bet even bic pays more than $7500 to get their pens shot...

Now, you do have a point about the client wanting you to work more for the same money by going with a day-rate in this sort of situation, so I could see going with a per-item price. And I wouldn't say comparing Bic is really fair since they'd be using for all sorts of advertising and possibly commercials etc. not just for a catalog.


I haven't done catalog work specifically, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

TTLKurtis wrote:
Yes, I meant add on, not give for free. I may be mistaken, but it looks to me like those pens are all using the exact same lighting and exact same positioning. Once you get the first one set up, just leave the camera on the tripod and bang it out... Why would it take more than 5 minutes per pen?

Now, if there are multiple angles per pen, and different backdrops / lighting... that's totally different. But for a static setup, what's the problem?

I don't think there's a shot in hell of getting $7,500 for shooting 75 pens in that lighting setup, but I could certainly be wrong. They're somewhat pricey little pens, but still.

Let us know what you end up getting - would love to hear how this pans out.

There is more to it than someone who has never done production catalog work would assume.
Just like anything else there is a workflow. Unpack the pens from a box, probably all are in individual boxes or plastic bags. Organize them into groups, shiny ones, dark ones, wood ones, different lengths or sizes. Keep track of all the model numbers, I would make a little card to shoot with each pen as it's ID, each pen needs to be checked for scratches or to make sure the clip is on straight, clean up the smudges or fingerprints, place on the surface with most likely some sort of wax to keep them from rolling away and stay in the right spot, double check to be sure they are parallel to the camera, blow any dust off of them, shoot a bracket to be sure the chrome highlights don't burn out and the dark tones don't disappear in case you need to some layer masks at some point. Keep track of all the you shoot as you go along. Repeat 75 times. PP every pen, color match to samples, retouch as needed etc. Enter product number to each file, save, repeat 75 times.
And don't forget to set some time aside for reshoots or missing product.

I think the real $ is somewhere between $13 per shot and $100

TTLKurtis wrote:
cwebster wrote:
Why would it take more than 5 minutes per pen? Because if you have 75 of anything to shoot you have to have some kind of system to ensure they are all shot, to link the frame numbers to the product numbers and to ensure that all 75 files are delivered.

Much of catalog photography is about organization, not photography. A friend got a shoot of 2000 purses. He had purses everywhere and had to hire 2 assistants just to deal with the administration.

<Chas>


That sounds like an awfully easy problem to solve, bud. I'm not the client, so you don't have to make it sound more difficult than it truly is to justify a higher price to me. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard for the client to put these in a box with the product number (or something - or for the photographer to do it, whatever) and then you just snap a shot of the box number, then the pen after that - followed by a blank frame if needed. Wam, bam...

Brent Ward wrote:
Stay away from the day rate for catalog shots, that's how clients slide in a couple extra for free. Per piece pricing keeps everyone honest and no negotiations during the shoot which can suck the life out of the day.

Those aren't bic pens, but I bet even bic pays more than $7500 to get their pens shot...

Now, you do have a point about the client wanting you to work more for the same money by going with a day-rate in this sort of situation, so I could see going with a per-item price. And I wouldn't say comparing Bic is really fair since they'd be using for all sorts of advertising and possibly commercials etc. not just for a catalog.


I haven't done catalog work specifically, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

It all sounds easy until you have stacks of product boxes and your actually diving into the work and delivering what the client needs in their time frame.

The little wax thing would be a pain in the arse... I'd probably try to make two small stationary anchor points that I can clone out in each shot afterwards to make sure each pen is at the right angle for every shot.

And yes, after seeing all your points, I do agree the right number is between $13-100 per pen. The question he'll have to answer is... where in the middle is the right number for him.

On a couple of the plastic composite pens the clasp is fixed in position. The better looking color on the barrel of the pen was not seen when photographed as the set-up exists. So the pen was shot twice. Once with the clasp positioned correctly, and once rotated with the nice color of the barrel showing. These were then merged together in photoshop. The manufacturer knows this now and future assembly will accommodate photography.

I appreciate all the input. I have a few other things I can add. I was hoping to get a dialog going on this kind of shoot so I could access it correctly. I see more work like this coming for me and my photographer partner in the future. I'm trying to get a complete grasp of all the pitfalls. I'm sure there's more then a few things I'm missing.

Day rates with half day minimums, plus assistants and production time.