Deezie wrote:
Just in the opposite, as I see it. It makes for a great sunlight source (e.g. on stills), covering a much larger area than fresnels etc on typical distances (studio / interior set ups).

I didn't say "no use." I said it won't be getting "much" use on a commercial set. Budgets allow for a Bron or Profoto para and/or frenel if needed. If a photographer's not paying for it, he's going to elect to use what's tried and true. Other than lighting wide areas, I don't find it particularly useful for what I shoot, especially indoors. But I do think it's an excellent product to have in your bag, and photographer's with monolights or lower power strobes might find this particularly beneficial under certain circumstances. Like all modifiers, this product also has its limitations.
Excuse me sir . . who said you said "no use"? Did I miss that. Why do insist on this sort of provoking stuff on an otherwise clean and useful thread?

Excuse me sir . . who said you said "no use"? Did I miss that. Why do insist on this sort of provoking stuff on an otherwise clean and useful thread?

My apologies if you it took it that way. It was not my intention to annoy you, but it seems anything less than glowing sentiments are taken as a slight. Though your product is not right for my needs, if you look at my posts, I have good things to say, such as "For the price, it would seem to benefit most photographers to have this in their bags, and based on personal reviews it appears to be well-made and rather durable for its low cost. Kudos to Paul."

I also opined, "it would seem to be a good choice for photographing little league baseball teams, prom-night pictures, capturing large groups of people - such as company staff pictures, and the like."

Photographers shooting Little League and prom photos far outnumber those shooting commercial jobs, so I expect your sales will be rather comfortable. Since the commercial market is not your demographic, I would think you would be no more offended than the CEO of Profoto getting upset because many here are buying your product instead of his Profoto para - which also apparently doesn't see a lot of use. The last one I rented had to wiped down because it was covered in dust.

So no offense, Paul. Your PLM seems to be well-made and offers a new twist that other brands don't. The fact that it's not right for me is not meant as a slight. I just haven't seen any test shots that inspire me to put it in my bag - which doesn't mean that it's not a good product. It very well seems to be!

Cheers!

The problem was not that you attacked me in any way . . . you're entitled to your opinion. Peter disagreed. But you said one thing in one post, then you chastised Peter for misquoting your words - which he had not done.

The point is the same that you usually make in your posts - that of insisting PCB products have no place in "commercial" photography (read snob photography) and "graciously" admit maybe they're OK for little league and prom shooting - read: the poor slobs I primarily serve.

I don't want to go off into this tangent again any more than other contributors, but I don't understand what it is in your mind that causes this consistent sort of denigration and superiority attitude. If this causes another round of nonsense, so be it, I didn't start it

If I offend a handful of elitists and you offend a couple of hundred thousand professional and, yes commercial by definition, photographers what does that say. Is this forum limited to the elitists who, as you say, rent expensive equipment and have to dust it off because of very limited use, what does that contribute here?

Paul Buff wrote:
Is this forum limited to the elitists who, as you say, rent expensive equipment and have to dust it off because of very limited use, what does that contribute here?

The only thing you'd be dusting off at a LA rental house would be AB's, IF they even stocked them. ;o)

We're all elitist if we say your products aren't quite up to higher standards required by certain individuals needs. Some of us can tell the difference, some of us can't...

OK - I'm not going to go further with this. If you guys want to turn this into another slam thread have a ball. If you can't see the negative cause and effect that goes on here there's not much I can do about it. This was a good clean informative thread until you and Deezie had to turn it into a another slamfest - not just toward me but toward Peter - perhaps the most knowledgeable and informative person here and most likely a genuine commercial shooter.

Deezie, Paul,
peace, no reason to mount the barricades, as far as I'm concerned
Deezie, you stated: kudos to Paul - I agree on that. It's another useful tool in the kit.
And Paul.... I'm in no way - not even perhaps - the most knowledgeable here. From reading e.g. Carmen's or Simon's passing on of their experiences I know this for sure.

Brent ,

I can tell the difference and I know many, many pros who use AB gear. MAybe not exclusively, and they generally don't admit it, but I know lots of working professionals who use it.

My position as a working professional is that I use whatever works, and works reliably . That includes some AB gear, some Profoto gear, some Dynalight gear, Some Canon and Nikon lighting gear, and right now the Elinchrom Quadra system. I doubt by looking at my portfolio you would have any idea what lights were used for what shot. I also know a lot more working photojournalists who use either White Lightning or Alien Bee gear. They simply have a hard time killing it. On the other hand I do little to no fashion work where brand names and image count.

Seeing that the original thread about the PCB PLM system shipping is a little nutty...sort of lost its way....just my opinion.... how about a review thread?



So how about mini reviews with some shots... to keep the thread on target. I'm not really in the market for one of these... but... I do find it interesting.


So...

First impressions...

Your testing methods (distance to subject...flash head used...meter readings...etc)

What you like?
What could be improved upon?
What you dislike?

Conclusion and a rating... say on a scale from 1-5.... 5 being a killer product.... 1 being... I will use it in the rain to shelter the family.


Any chance we can stay on target.... the thread has some very useful info already.... would really like to see it continue to grow... avoiding the path the original thread took.

Just a thought.
Hatch

hatch1921 wrote:
Seeing that the original thread about the PCB PLM system shipping is a little nutty...sort of lost its way....just my opinion.... how about a review thread?

I think you may find that an honest and candid review thread isn't going to happen when the product's manufacturer is responding to and rebutting every comment and criticism that people might have. Can you think of another review, anywhere, that had the manufacturer telling a reviewer "yes, you reviewed that properly" or "no, you're wrong, that's not how you review it"? If you look at other review threads on FM, like the PocketWizard or RadioPopper or Elinchrom Quadra, I think you might see that they're only able to happen because people feel free to express their opinions without reprimand or retribution.

Paul Buff wrote:
The point is the same that you usually make in your posts - that of insisting PCB products have no place in "commercial" photography (read snob photography) and "graciously" admit maybe they're OK for little league and prom shooting - read: the poor slobs I primarily serve.

Two points.

1. Paul you do yourself no favors by coming here and constantly crossing swords with anybody who happens to have a negative view of your products. For every single product in the world there is a detractor, you will drive yourself and everybody else crazy if you pop in anytime the subject of AB, WL, or Paul Buff comes up. your constant battles and saber rattling does you no favors.

You are like the crazy uncle that everyone fears will show up at Christmas. It is nice to see you but eventually you will become obnoxious and everyone will want you to go away.

I have been awfully close to purchasing an 86" silver PLM to play with. It is cheap enough that I will not freak out if I do not use it frequently, then I think about your tone on this message board and have to re-evaluate whether I want to support you and your company.

2. This speaks directly to Pauls quote above.

My first experience with White Lightning was at a professional photo studio of a wildly successful and innovative automotive photographer. When asking about lights the studio manager said they used White Lightnings because they are indestructible and if anything does go wrong they (white lighting) are excellent about servicing them.

So for anybody to say his gear does not have a place in the commercial photography market is just wrong.

Ultimately PCB produces tools, and because his tools are quite cheap (dollars) they are frequently purchased by amateurs. This does not mean his tools cannot be effective in the hands of professionals.

I also find it ironic that people will say the PLM is not comparable to XYZ product due to whatever, yet they will use foam core from the nearest art supply house to make reflectors, cards, and flags. Somehow a $5 piece of foam core is a professional tool but a $80 umbrella is not. That is hypocritical.

Ultimately:
1. Paul you are your own worst enemy and do more to harm the reputation of your company than help it by posting here.
2. There are very successful commercial photographers using PCB gear on a daily basis; they have managed to find a reasonably priced tool that serves their needs.
Evidence: http://www.davophotographic.com/_248-588-9600_/StudioTour/Studio_Tour.html

shatterkiss wrote:
I think you may find that an honest and candid review thread isn't going to happen when the product's manufacturer is responding to and rebutting every comment and criticism that people might have.
Let me disagree. When I asked about defects I've seen, Paul responded in highly respected and thorough manner. The same I've seen when other specific issues were raised. But I can understand his reaction to some posts. Let's be honest. He is here to market his stuff by answering questions and helping to resolve issues with his products. How is he supposed to respond to statements like "don't expect the $85 PLM to behave as nicely as $6000 Profoto"? Not mentioning that why would somebody expect these are made equal, how can he answer if there is no proof shown (pictures, setup diagrams, etc) behind these statements made? There are specs (size, weight, time to set, durability) which can be compared easily, and are important or not depending on situation, but what really matters in the end, is the image quality (well, of course, situations happen when you have to show the most expensive gear possible just to look good enough in the eyes of snob but wealthy client ready to shower you with gold). Until somebody finally makes a comparative review in the same studio with same strobes and models, there is nothing to discuss.
You could say that Paul has to do such review, but:
1) this would not be an independent reviewer, therefore neutrality is questionable;
2) he is not expected to be a highly respected studio photographer who knows how to squeeze the maximum from the gear he is testing
2) he did not state PLM is as good as Profoto. What he said is that PLM is focusable parabolic umbrella available for less that $100, and many tests confirm this.
By the way, same heated discussions are usual in other forums, also, and without manufacturer's intervention. I did participate in some about Gitzo vs. second tier tripods, about Heliopan vs. Hoya vs. B+W, etc. If I have to oppose a statement (made in Polish web site review) that Heliopan has huge halo, I take pictures of street lights at night and post them. If I want to show how good Gitzo is, I put long tele on it, and shoot with long exposure. But at the same time when somebody asked about tripod for salted water, I said that he can buy Gitzo Ocean Traveler, but I'd better buy Gitzo Systematic, use it for salted water session, and if it gets rusted to unusable shape, there is enough money left to throw it away and buy another Systematic.
Let somebody show that Profoto 180 delivers superior image quality, and then make conclusions which make Paul nuts
Just my 2 cents.

kosulin wrote:
How is he supposed to respond to statements like "don't expect the $85 PLM to behave as nicely as $6000 Profoto"?

I don't think he is supposed to respond. Honestly, that's my point. In published reviews, how often does the manufacturer of the equipment being reviewed get unlimited page space to respond to the review? When Ellis Vener's PLM review is published in the PPA magazine, will Paul be able to have a point-by-point rebuttal printed alongside it? I think most publishers would find an ethical issue with that, yet no one raises an eyebrow at a manufacturer rebutting people's impressions of the product here on FM.

Until somebody finally makes a comparative review in the same studio with same strobes and models, there is nothing to discuss.

I don't think that's true at all. I think it's admirable if you choose to back up your impressions with rigorous testing and demonstrative evidence, but most of us choose to be photographers first and product reviewers second (if at all)...that shouldn't limit us from sharing our impressions or experiences. It seems to me that most of the comments have been prefaced with phrases like "I think", making it clear that people are presenting their opinions rather than establishing the Irrefutable Facts of Record.

Moreover, shouldn't I be able to say, "I made the switch from Dynalite to Profoto partly because I wasn't a fan of Dynalite's modifier mount" without having a representative of Dynalite jump all over me and tell me the 10 ways in which I'm wrong in my opinion? And if that Dynalite rep shows a track record of criticizing or abusing people who post their opinions, don't you think it'll discourage other people from posting honest reviews of Dynalite or restricting themselves to only posting positive comments?

You could say that Paul has to do such review

I wouldn't say that at all. I think it's only a manufacturer's responsibility to make and sell the equipment...I'm fine with putting the onus on the community to test and review it. I'm not fine with a manufacturer presenting themselves as also being a member of that community and possessing the loudest voice in that test and review process, choosing to rebut some reviews and validate others.

By the way, same heated discussions are usual in other forums, also, and without manufacturer's intervention.

If you've read any number of my posts here you've probably observed that I'm all for heated discussions...between forum members, whose biases we can usually assume to be personal and professional ones. When one of the members of a heated discussion has a profit motive involved it totally changes the nature of the discussion. I think that's fairly clear.

It's one thing to debate the quality of the latest episode of "Gossip Girl" with your next-door neighbor, it's another thing to debate it with the VP of Programming from the network that airs it and one of the stars of the show and your next-door neighbor.

shatterkiss wrote:
kosulin wrote:
How is he supposed to respond to statements like "don't expect the $85 PLM to behave as nicely as $6000 Profoto"?

I don't think he is supposed to respond.

You know, this sounds strange for me. You state that forum members can write whatever they believe is true about PCB stuff, and in whatever manner they believe is appropriate, but PCB can not respond just because he is manufacturing it? This is free society yet, and by the way, I do not remember PCB ever trying to put any other brand down. If sometimes he is not polite enough, then remember, he is not a politician, not a lawyer, he is just an engineer and takes this too close to his heart.


Honestly, that's my point. In published reviews, how often does the manufacturer of the equipment being reviewed get unlimited page space to respond to the review?

You forget that
1) most manufacturers would hire somebody to respond instead. This might be PR agency, attorney in law, or 'independent' reviewer (example: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/1529667/stop-writing-exploding-apple-gadgets )
2) most manufacturer CEOs have no idea about engineering of stuff their companies build. All they know is finances and marketing. They have no idea what is good and what is wrong with their products. They read reports prepared for them. All they know (and worry about) is how fast these toys are being sold. And their engineers are frequently under legal obligation and are forbidden from participating if discussions about their employer's stuff and competition.
3) we are speaking about Paul's reaction to posts which are anything but review.

My point is, he is reading a lot of posts which have nothing in common with 'review' definition, and which make impression of his gear as 'cheapo', 'amateurish', etc., not intended for serious high quality photography. I am a long time reader of many photo forums, have no PCB bias (positive or negative). I've never used any studio gear before (and I did photography in decades, my first camera was 1952 Zenit SLR, and I am struggling trying to find somebody able to properly restore it), and 64" PLM I've got 10 days ago is still subject of testing, was not used for real shots, and I can plea this bias was obvious for somebody new (read 'me') when I just started reading about PCB stuff.
When I read "AB is no good, 200K color temp shift is not something expected from equipment I would use", I have nothing against this statement even if there are no pictures to prove this, and even if I know that there are many setups where this color temp shift is of no real importance. The poster publishes their opinion and deserves full respect for this. But when I read something like "PLM can't deliver as good IQ as Profoto just because it can't", I want to see why. Otherwise I consider this post as BS and understand PCB's anger.

This snobbery (I do not mean you) reminds me what happened this winter at dpreview 'Canon 1D-5D' forum when it was flooded with posts about 5D Mark II, most of which were from amateurs and were of no interest for proud owners of 1Ds. Some folks there started blaming the forum as junkie, tried to demand separation of 1D and 5D forums, but totally forgot that when 3 years ago they flooded the same forum with discussions about 1D Mark III AF, we 5D owners did not blame them.


I don't think that's true at all. I think it's admirable if you choose to back up your impressions with rigorous testing and demonstrative evidence, but most of us choose to be photographers first and product reviewers second (if at all)...that shouldn't limit us from sharing our impressions or experiences. It seems to me that most of the comments have been prefaced with phrases like "I think", making it clear that people are presenting their opinions rather than establishing the Irrefutable Facts of Record.

I totally agree with what you wrote above. But when you put somebody down without explanation, you should expect the same in return (and PCB is no exception).

I think it's only a manufacturer's responsibility to make and sell the equipment...I'm fine with putting the onus on the community to test and review it. I'm not fine with a manufacturer presenting themselves as also being a member of that community and possessing the loudest voice in that test and review process, choosing to rebut some reviews and validate others.

Manufacturers have rights, also And don't forget some other manufacturers sue those who make their stuff look bad even when there is obvious evidence provided that they build junk. PCB is much more kind, IMHO.

If you've read any number of my posts here you've probably observed that I'm all for heated discussions...between forum members, whose biases we can usually assume to be personal and professional ones. When one of the members of a heated discussion has a profit motive involved it totally changes the nature of the discussion. I think that's fairly clear.


What is wrong then? PCB has his own bias, just for reasons different from yours, and we all can keep this in mind based on this knowledge

It's one thing to debate the quality of the latest episode of "Gossip Girl" with your next-door neighbor, it's another thing to debate it with the VP of Programming from the network that airs it and one of the stars of the show and your next-door neighbor

If we are speaking about discussion intended to deliver (or exchange) knowledge, and because I would assume both VP and TV star are more knowledgeable in area of TV production, I would definitely prefer discussion with them, even if I knew they will try to put Simpsons (or my own indie film) down. And if the knowledge they can share is of real importance for me, I would even ignore their snobbery and attempts to treat me as moron.
IMHO.

How about everyone just agrees that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and return this thread to what it is supposed to be. This forum has a PM (as in PRIVATE mail) system, so use it if you have a beef with someone.

I was really looking forward to getting good honest reviews here.

Isn't this a semi-public forum (owned by a private company)?

And is it not true that as long as their posts are within the guidelines the forum owner has established any person, whether they are or are not independent, or are a representative of a company, whether he or she is an owner, employee, pr flack, or sponsored photographer represents themselves as such, they have as much right to speak their mind as you, I, or anyone else does?

My opinion is that it is a huge distraction when people start attacking each other or besmirching whole groups of people. Certain people on every internet forum like to push each other's buttons cause they know they will get a hot response back. I don't understand this behavior and all I have to say to that kind of boorishness is "Boys, go get yourselves a hotel room and leave the rest of us alone."

On the other hand if someone is just completely wrong, that should and probably will be pointed out to them. As the saying in the computer world goes; "All bugs are shallow when ten thousand eyes are looking." Case in point: One of the intial PLM video reviews where the poor guy had his PLM connected to a light stand near the end of the PLM shaft. He got slammed, including by me, because the conclusion he came to was based on his error.

If a manufacturer or distributor doesn't like one of my reviews or interviews , and feels that the published article is way off-base or factually wrong they are welcome to take it up with my publisher or editors. And believe me, they have. I and every other professional writer who has a modicum of integrity and reviews anything have had this happen. As long as my conclusions are fact based, and something I've observed is independently repeatable I just don't worry about it.

E-Vener wrote:
a huge distraction when people start

There is about 3 years of history on all of this. We are working through it, seems a bit better lately.


hatch1921 wrote:
Any chance we can stay on target....

Ah, Hatch, you are **no fun** !


Littlebike wrote:
Evidence: http://www.davophotographic.com/_248-588-9600_/StudioTour/Studio_Tour.html

So Littlebike,

You are from Wisconsin - like me,

Sounds like you lived in Michigan - like me

Are you in LA now? Do I need to move there? I guess it depends on who is stalking whom ....

You ever live in Colorado? That was my favorite. New Mexico? (I think we talked about Albuquerque one time?) Texas ? Let me know when you plan on moving.

Cheers,
M.

Edit: Turns out I am stalking Littlebike. He is from Michigan, now in Chicago - where I was lat week and aspire to work. My bad.

Holy mother of pearl. Did this thing blow up like the "shipping" thread. Well... I tried.

I was hoping.... when Paul finishes testing he would post a video or some shots and share what his results along with all the others who have purchased the product/s. (Paul...not calling you out or anything like that... at some point in this thread or the last one... you had mentioned some testing )

I think a thread like this...even if the owner of the company agrees or disagrees with the end user results... we all learn something.

I follow Shatterkiss on Flickr and I truly appreciate the behind the scenes photos... I find them inspiring and motivating. Again... what I was hoping to see in this thread. Posts from users and the owner showing what they were able to accomplish with the new product. Not to mention how well the product performed and what the pros and cons were/are.

So... as I sit here in sunny Phoenix (110 today)... I will still hold on to some hope that we can all play nice (group hug ) and I will get to see the new products being used in studio and on loctions shoots.

Holding my breath.
Hatch

hatch1921 wrote:
Holy mother of pearl. Did this thing blow up like the "shipping" thread. Well... I tried.

I was hoping.... when Paul finishes testing he would post a video or some shots and share what his results along with all the others who have purchased the product/s. (Paul...not calling you out or anything like that... at some point in this thread or the last one... you had mentioned some testing )

I think a thread like this...even if the owner of the company agrees or disagrees with the end user results... we all learn something.

I follow Shatterkiss on Flickr and I truly appreciate the behind the scenes photos... I find them inspiring and motivating. Again... what I was hoping to see in this thread. Posts from users and the owner showing what they were able to accomplish with the new product. Not to mention how well the product performed and what the pros and cons were/are.

So... as I sit here in sunny Phoenix (110 today)... I will still hold on to some hope that we can all play nice (group hug ) and I will get to see the new products being used in studio and on loctions shoots.

Holding my breath.
Hatch


Setting up a studio to do just that. My time is scarce but you should start to see results next week - that is if Fred doesn't kick me off for posting "commercial links". My doing this will, of course, start a firestorm of protest about how I am us FM for commercial purposes.

E-Vener wrote:
Isn't this a semi-public forum (owned by a private company)?

And is it not true that as long as their posts are within the guidelines the forum owner has established any person, whether they are or are not independent, or are a representative of a company, whether he or she is an owner, employee, pr flack, or sponsored photographer represents themselves as such, they have as much right to speak their mind as you, I, or anyone else does?

My opinion is that it is a huge distraction when people start attacking each other or besmirching whole groups of people. Certain people on every internet forum like to push each other's buttons cause they know they will get a hot response back. I don't understand this behavior and all I have to say to that kind of boorishness is "Boys, go get yourselves a hotel room and leave the rest of us alone."

On the other hand if someone is just completely wrong, that should and probably will be pointed out to them. As the saying in the computer world goes; "All bugs are shallow when ten thousand eyes are looking." Case in point: One of the intial PLM video reviews where the poor guy had his PLM connected to a light stand near the end of the PLM shaft. He got slammed, including by me, because the conclusion he came to was based on his error.

If a manufacturer or distributor doesn't like one of my reviews or interviews , and feels that the published article is way off-base or factually wrong they are welcome to take it up with my publisher or editors. And believe me, they have. I and every other professional writer who has a modicum of integrity and reviews anything have had this happen. As long as my conclusions are fact based, and something I've observed is independently repeatable I just don't worry about it.


Generally, magazine reviewers send a prerelease copy to the manufacturer. The purpose, which we follow rigidly, is to allow for correction of any mistakes or misstatements, but never to attempt to alter opinions or conclusions.

I am no business or marketing guru but where else can you go anywhere and talk to the owner of the company himself like this? Even small companies the people behind the products will never give you the time of day. Paul puts himself out their so that people can hear directly from him. He offers great products at great prices. Go look at the recent post in the wedding forum about what we all use to trigger our lights. About 70% said cybercyncs. PCB stuff is reliable, durable and affordable. Everyone here can gather all the opinions they want and buy whatever they want. I am not trying to sell everyone on PCB because I use his stuff or because I think it works great, I am just saying that I respect Paul for being here and answering questions. From what I have read if you ask a question he will answer it honestly. And why wouldn't he claim that his product is superior, it's what puts food on his table. If we were in his shoes we would do the same thing. This forum can get malicious quite often and it is really sad to see all this talent up in arms. We need to be respecting and learning from each other here. If one person doesn't like PLM system of PCB products then OK he is entitled to that opinion and should provide evidence why he feels that way so that we can all learn. If someone uses the PLM system and likes it then they are entitled to their opinion and should once again provide evidence why, so that we all can try to learn something. Even the best togs have something to learn, even if it that the PLM system isn't the right tool for their job.
I respect Paul and the fact that he stands behind his product and is willing to come help us all out.
Now for a semi review. I recently bought a AB800 and 42" PLM for my small studio. I normally do all weddings and am fairly new at studio lighting. What I purchased fit my needs nicely. I have used white lightning and photogenic lights in the past and find the AB800 with PLM does the job nicely. I shoot it into the silver umbrella and back through the white diffuser fabric. Shadows are controlled nicely and light spread is nice and even. I do not find that I loose any light power most likely due to the parabolic shape. Catchlights are also nice and big and fairly round (although they do have a hint of the umbrella shape to them) I have not tried it outside yet but for through my research could not find a nicer cheaper portable softbox type setup. If you shoot with AB's the PLM will get the job done.
Doug