Accident prevention in any job involves foreseeing what could possibly go wrong and taking steps to prevent it. Like you said, you want to create happy clients and, regardless of how right you are in respect to your legal standing in this, it has become a lose-lose situation. Like some said, when something like that comes up on the job, it's good to talk with the client about it there and then. Also, like some have said, when someone presents a list, I compliment them on being so organized and tell them, "I'll be glad to do these shots for you but I won't be held responsible for making it happen. I don't know them and I wouldn't have the time or the authority to chase them down and make it happen if I did know them. You're going to be busy enjoying your day, so I strongly recommend that you designate someone you can trust to round them up and make it happen. Give them the list. Put the people in front of me I will photograph them." At the event, I ask the person in charge of the list if we got everybody. If the person with the list isn't getting the job done (happens frequently), I remind the bride and groom and whoever is helping coordinate things. Once I'm sure I've communicated clearly with everyone I need to, it's in their hands. And, like someone else said, I have a planning session with them and go through everything that's supposed to happen and write down the when it should happen and how long it should take, allowing extra time for people running late and needing to be rounded up. Things often don't go completely as planned so we discuss that, too.

Sorry to break up the news but you are the professional and the client did give you a list of images she wanted. In my opinion, you have been hired to capture her day. I assume it was her day and not yours. They obviously liked your work and they paid you. You have probably shot the wedding how you think which is your style and which is why they like your work.

However, clients are not always artistic but they do like what they see. She was making a request that on her special day she wanted certain images and it appears you did not deliver. You also had three assistants that could have done the work as well. Regardless of what is in the contract, you now have one unhappy client who has friends and you know what the talk will be.

Your best work is really only as good as your last job and word can spread fast.

I actually know how you feel because I have had an issue myself where the couple or really the bride was in a really agressive mood. It was in the film days and she actually reported me to the BIPP. which is the same as the PPA over here. Fortunately, one of the panel members actually knew me and they arbitrated with the bride. They agreed that she would provide a list of images she wanted in the album and also provided negatives from guests that she wanted included in the album. I also had to provide a refund.

The panel member was the go between and actually hand printed the work himself. Funnily enough, the images she chose for the album consisted of 85% of my images.

Sometimes it is just a bad day for the client but as professionals, sometimes we have to eat humble pie to keep our business going. They are paying the money after all.

I'm sure the OP can speak from himself/herself but

Ceremony time?
receiving line one hour lost, not planned
54 formals 2 minutes per formal ??
Sit down meal time?

If you don't have co-operation from the client, what do you do shout stamp your feet?

I think if you read again one assistant three helpers most likely ushers.

You booked/got an aggressive bride and she put 85% of your images in the album and you paid for it, sounds like you were had..

If you keep eating humble pie what you going to live on Air.
Here one for you, have you ever heard of a venue giving full refunds.
Maybe the coffee was cold the food luke warm because the guests wouldn't sit down when called.

If you don't have or can't possibly get co-operation you can throw away any expectations, regardless of who is paying, on initial meeting and in contract it is made perfectly clear client is responsible for who appears in all formals and responsible for appointing a member/s to herd guests family members to the location of said formals usually not long after ceremony.

Contracts close doors and leave you less exposed to being had over through no fault of your own.
Good contracts scare away bad clients and keep/get good clients


Brit-007 wrote:
Sorry to break up the news but you are the professional and the client did give you a list of images she wanted. In my opinion, you have been hired to capture her day. I assume it was her day and not yours. They obviously liked your work and they paid you. You have probably shot the wedding how you think which is your style and which is why they like your work.

However, clients are not always artistic but they do like what they see. She was making a request that on her special day she wanted certain images and it appears you did not deliver. You also had three assistants that could have done the work as well. Regardless of what is in the contract, you now have one unhappy client who has friends and you know what the talk will be.

Your best work is really only as good as your last job and word can spread fast.

I actually know how you feel because I have had an issue myself where the couple or really the bride was in a really agressive mood. It was in the film days and she actually reported me to the BIPP. which is the same as the PPA over here. Fortunately, one of the panel members actually knew me and they arbitrated with the bride. They agreed that she would provide a list of images she wanted in the album and also provided negatives from guests that she wanted included in the album. I also had to provide a refund.

The panel member was the go between and actually hand printed the work himself. Funnily enough, the images she chose for the album consisted of 85% of my images.

Sometimes it is just a bad day for the client but as professionals, sometimes we have to eat humble pie to keep our business going. They are paying the money after all.

She was making a request that on her special day she wanted certain images and it appears you did not deliver.

I'm sorry, but 54 different posed shots in the 30 minutes we are allowed, WITH a receiving line, is impossible and definitely not realistic. I have to disagree with you. The bride withheld info and was told what needed to happen before the wedding, and she didn't follow-through. It's not the photog's fault...she did what she could in the time allotted. Yes, different things could have been done to alleviate the situation, but the root of the problem is not her fault.

We're really talking about 2 things here - fault and responsibility. We can all argue whose fault this is, but in my opinion the responsibility to manage this situation effectively lies squarely with the photographer.

We've all been in the situation where plans went awry. But its our responsibility to poractively address those concerns on the day and lay out the option for fixing it and let the client make the decision as to what to do. In this case the best thing to do would have been to approach the bride after the line and let her know the while you had planned to do the formals during that time the impromtu line meant the folks had scattered and the 54 formals weren't shot - we can round up these people and try to work through the list now or work through the list items that you're comfortable cutting. That way the client sees what is happening and makes the decision.

Plus, 54 list items of formals takes alot of time as others have expressed. So its the photographer's responsibility to make sure the client understands how much time that takes and to plan accordingly.

Beyond that, I agree about contracts but contracts are not tools for enhancing customer service - they are purely for legal protection. When a client's expectations are not met that contract may legally protect you but won't take the responsibility for managing that relationship out of the photographer's hands.

This client is upset because their expectations weren't met. The photographer said they were going to shoot those formals and they didn't. That photographer indicated an end time and left early. Combine those things together and you've got a justifiably upset client.

I don't point this out to knock someone only to caution the new photogs who might be reading this and thinking that its OK not to manage client expectations about things like this.

- trr

TRReichman wrote:
We're really talking about 2 things here - fault and responsibility. We can all argue whose fault this is, but in my opinion the responsibility to manage this situation effectively lies squarely with the photographer.

We've all been in the situation where plans went awry. But its our responsibility to poractively address those concerns on the day and lay out the option for fixing it and let the client make the decision as to what to do. In this case the best thing to do would have been to approach the bride after the line and let her know the while you had planned to do the formals during that time the impromtu line meant the folks had scattered and the 54 formals weren't shot - we can round up these people and try to work through the list now or work through the list items that you're comfortable cutting. That way the client sees what is happening and makes the decision.

Plus, 54 list items of formals takes alot of time as others have expressed. So its the photographer's responsibility to make sure the client understands how much time that takes and to plan accordingly.

Beyond that, I agree about contracts but contracts are not tools for enhancing customer service - they are purely for legal protection. When a client's expectations are not met that contract may legally protect you but won't take the responsibility for managing that relationship out of the photographer's hands.

This client is upset because their expectations weren't met. The photographer said they were going to shoot those formals and they didn't. That photographer indicated an end time and left early. Combine those things together and you've got a justifiably upset client.

I don't point this out to knock someone only to caution the new photogs who might be reading this and thinking that its OK not to manage client expectations about things like this.

- trr

This is a good post.

letenele: it sounds like circumstances ganged up on you as they sometimes do. The fact that you didn't get the shots certainly doesn't sound like your fault. However, the more proactive you can be to address the problem the better. In this case, the leaving early bit affected her perception of the situation, rightly or wrongly. While you may or may not have legal obligation here, I'd say that you've put yourself behind the 8-ball on managing her expectations, and it would be a good time to do what you can to win her back over, whether that is making a reasonable attempt to accomplish her photoshop requests or comping prints or portraits.

I'll give an example of a potential situation that still worked out well for me with the client:
Had the wedding on a crazy rainy day, which nixed most of our plans for the outdoor group portraits. Everyone ran late, and there was no time to get much great for indoor portraits before the ceremony anyway. After the ceremony, we were literally all kicked out of the sanctuary after about 20 minutes because the church needed to prepare for evening service. I was able to get the clients all of the group photos desired and one very simple "couple-at-the-altar." This deviates from the normal expectation that most of my clients have of at least one really dynamic couple portrait. I approached the B&G at a spare moment in the reception, and informed them "hey, the one thing I'm missing is a really dynamic portrait of just you two, which I usually get. We do have some great PJ of the two of you, though. Do you want to step out of your reception and try to get something more rockin'?" They didn't want to leave their guests, so on the spot I offered them a complimentary day-after (or month after) session even though there was absolutely nothing I could have done to get the shot.

In the end, they were happy with the photojournalism and didn't feel the need for a really stylized portrait, and appreciatively declined the portrait session (he wasn't a HUGE fan of having his picture taken anyway). But you BET that my proactive efforts to ensure they got everything they were expecting made an impression.

What is done is done. You feel guilty because you left a little early when nothing was happening, and didn't think to ask to do the group shots before you left. I'd have forgotten too. You probably want to 'make it right' because deep down part of you feels that if it came to a court case, you don't have a solid leg to stand on (as well as the primary please-the-customer concern).

You can let your guilt drive you to spend 3-4-5 hours at the computer hacking together group formals, but at what cost? You have to decide that. Seems like the best you can do here is to return her to 'neutral' status.. that is, neither dissatisfied nor delighted.

Personally, I'd test the waters a little bit... explain that the day changed and circumstances beyond your control etc. If you get a reaction that isn't understanding or cooperative, then do your PS magic. The key here is to compromise with her, and if she isn't compromising, then you'll have to play hardball too quoting contract segments etc..

Good luck.

When bride's come up with crazy shot lists, tell them to plan on 2-3 minutes to setp each shot mostly getting people into place. Once they start seeing the numbers the lists start becoming more realistic.
(I'm not saying that's what it takes, but it's a common industry number).
Make them responsible for having a family member or coordinator responsible for assembling the people ready to go.
The key is to manage this upfront before the wedding.
I love the churches that tell people no receiving line.

OPTION: Offer to set up a session when she can bring all the people you missed, or as many as possible, and do the missed photos for her. This is a common resolution when a photographer's film is destroyed or their digital images are lost. From what I understand, PPA liabililty insurance even pays the cost for restaging the wedding photos when that happens. It's not a perfect resolution but it may help.

Evan Baines wrote:
TRReichman wrote:
We're really talking about 2 things here - fault and responsibility. We can all argue whose fault this is, but in my opinion the responsibility to manage this situation effectively lies squarely with the photographer.

We've all been in the situation where plans went awry. But its our responsibility to poractively address those concerns on the day and lay out the option for fixing it and let the client make the decision as to what to do. In this case the best thing to do would have been to approach the bride after the line and let her know the while you had planned to do the formals during that time the impromtu line meant the folks had scattered and the 54 formals weren't shot - we can round up these people and try to work through the list now or work through the list items that you're comfortable cutting. That way the client sees what is happening and makes the decision.

Plus, 54 list items of formals takes alot of time as others have expressed. So its the photographer's responsibility to make sure the client understands how much time that takes and to plan accordingly.

Beyond that, I agree about contracts but contracts are not tools for enhancing customer service - they are purely for legal protection. When a client's expectations are not met that contract may legally protect you but won't take the responsibility for managing that relationship out of the photographer's hands.

This client is upset because their expectations weren't met. The photographer said they were going to shoot those formals and they didn't. That photographer indicated an end time and left early. Combine those things together and you've got a justifiably upset client.

I don't point this out to knock someone only to caution the new photogs who might be reading this and thinking that its OK not to manage client expectations about things like this.

- trr

This is a good post.

letenele: it sounds like circumstances ganged up on you as they sometimes do. The fact that you didn't get the shots certainly doesn't sound like your fault. However, the more proactive you can be to address the problem the better. In this case, the leaving early bit affected her perception of the situation, rightly or wrongly. While you may or may not have legal obligation here, I'd say that you've put yourself behind the 8-ball on managing her expectations, and it would be a good time to do what you can to win her back over, whether that is making a reasonable attempt to accomplish her photoshop requests or comping prints or portraits.

I'll give an example of a potential situation that still worked out well for me with the client:
Had the wedding on a crazy rainy day, which nixed most of our plans for the outdoor group portraits. Everyone ran late, and there was no time to get much great for indoor portraits before the ceremony anyway. After the ceremony, we were literally all kicked out of the sanctuary after about 20 minutes because the church needed to prepare for evening service. I was able to get the clients all of the group photos desired and one very simple "couple-at-the-altar." This deviates from the normal expectation that most of my clients have of at least one really dynamic couple portrait. I approached the B&G at a spare moment in the reception, and informed them "hey, the one thing I'm missing is a really dynamic portrait of just you two, which I usually get. We do have some great PJ of the two of you, though. Do you want to step out of your reception and try to get something more rockin'?" They didn't want to leave their guests, so on the spot I offered them a complimentary day-after (or month after) session even though there was absolutely nothing I could have done to get the shot.

In the end, they were happy with the photojournalism and didn't feel the need for a really stylized portrait, and appreciatively declined the portrait session (he wasn't a HUGE fan of having his picture taken anyway). But you BET that my proactive efforts to ensure they got everything they were expecting made an impression.


TRReichman's post really is well stated. Maybe that could be added into one of the sticky notes on advice for wedding photographers.

Brian Lingle wrote:
TRReichman's post really is well stated. Maybe that could be added into one of the sticky notes on advice for wedding photographers.

Thanks! Not to derail but this is the second time someone has mentioned stickies and I was curious what that meant? Thanks again to Evan and Brian.

- trr

I hate to pile-up on the OP but I would be pissed off at them if I were the client.

[puts on client clothes]

...

Hey pro-photog...

You didn't manage my expectations - if it really takes 2-3 minutes to get a group shot then why didn't you tell me?

You accepted my list of shots and didn't express any clear reservations at the time

You never brought up the problem to my attention during the event. Maybe if you had done so I would have pared down the list to a more manageable number... but WTF you didn't even get a shot of me and my siblings?!?!?!

And don't you dare say something like "If you don't remember being in a shot with your siblings then obviously we didn't take it" ... the whole thing is a blur... If I thought *I* needed to keep track I'd a kept the list rather than giving it to you.

You left early after asking me if there were any MORE shots I wanted taken ... of course I assumed that the 54 I'd asked for had already been taken... WTF are you leaving early for if you haven't done what I asked you to do?

Sorry, OP... but that's how I see it.

The only sort of shot list I will take is a "Formals Shot" list. This isn't time to take shots with the kids you knew from High School, and Facebook group shots so all your friends can be tagged later. This is discussed at the initial meeting and is in my contract as such.

Jim

I also agree with the managing expectations... As far as what to do now, I vote that you take some extra time/work and just make the client happy and move on.

I'm sorry to go WAAAY off topic here, but TRReichman, I just went on your website... this is a great shot....

Damn...I tried really hard to never have an image posted and you go and ruin it for me. I hate for other photographers to see my images. Feels like someone's peeking in my windows.



Thanks for the kind words, sorry about my judgmental tone in this thread.

- trr

Thought I should mention before I end up sleeping on the couch that my wife took that particular shot. Since its not mine I think its fair to say that its a pretty genius shot.

- trr

Tony Hoffer wrote:
I also agree with the managing expectations... As far as what to do now, I vote that you take some extra time/work and just make the client happy and move on.

I'm sorry to go WAAAY off topic here, but TRReichman, I just went on your website... this is a great shot....

letenele wrote:

4eyes wrote:
ng in return.

On a personal note, this thread has been SUPER helpful! We shot a wedding this weekend with tons of extended family photo requests. By the time we got to the bride/groom shots the bride gave us one (1) minute to shoot. (Not kidding). She wanted to get to the reception. (Did I mention that the light was GORGEOUS?!)

When we tried to pull her away from the reception closer to sunset (as we agreed to before the wedding), we asked for 10 minutes to shoot and she said there was NO way she'd leave the party for that long. She gave us 5 minutes. I think we managed to get a few shots of the couple, but now I regret giving her so many extended family shots. I'll totally cap the request from now on.


A couple of years ago I was shooting a wedding reception when I went out to the car to get a light stand. It had just rained and we were in a church fellowship hall with a big field behind it. There was a rainbow arching across the field and the light was gorgeous. I ran inside and told the bride, but she said it was time to do the chicken dance the rainbow photo would have to wait.

Three minutes later the rainbow was gone, but the chicken dance went on and on.

You just have to keep in mind that this is their day and their priorities will not be yours, and since they are paying the bill, you have to go with what is important to them, no matter how frustrating that can be for us as artists.

Carl Feather wrote:
Three minutes later the rainbow was gone, but the chicken dance went on and on.

Like life itself when you turn 30.