dasrocket wrote:
"...Leitz was a complicit part of the Nazi military industrial complex..."
so was Krupps, BMW, HUGO BOSS, VW, PORSCHE, IBM, BAYERN...this is a can from which you can't pick only the worms you want.

I agree. But my point stands: I can't get too sentimental about Leica's anti-Nazi credentials.

"...Criticising, for instance, Canon, is a national sport on FM, but criticising Leica is still some kind of taboo..."
It's criticizing LEICA DRFs by comparing them to CANON DSLRs that gets you into boiling water hee Brainiac

Don't I know it! As an experienced rangefinder and SLR user I can never understand why though. They are all cameras, and many of us could shoot with either in many circumstances.

"...Let's get back to the EP1, which is innovative and exciting despite coming from one of the Axis countries ;-)..."
Agreed and good thing for that because if it was left to the Alliance we would be using KODAKs and HPs

True. That would probably suck. God bless the post-Axis industrial complex ;-)

well what an utterly cowardly way to attempt to win the argument

to let the pain of a war that began now 70 years ago prevail over common sense in a forum about cameras. As a former soldier, I can speak with at least some authority, that neither soldiers nor people hold any persuasion over their government, even before the shooting starts.

That condition was extant in England, Germany, the USA, and Japan
...................................................where Canon cameras are made..

This man holds no logic, is a virtual stain on the forum community here at FM.

my deepest apologies to all who feel hurt by this conversation, and of those in particular peoples of German decent.

"...Criticising, for instance, Canon, is a national sport on FM, but criticising Leica is still some kind of taboo..."
It's criticizing LEICA DRFs by comparing them to CANON DSLRs that gets you into boiling water hee Brainiac

Don't I know it! As an experienced rangefinder and SLR user I can never understand why though. They are all cameras, and many of us could shoot with either in many circumstances.

You think this is bad! you should have seen what I heard when I showed up to an RF photographers meeting with my RD-1

Critizizing Leica is not taboo, as long as one does not make it into one of the pillars of ones personal religion ..

brainiac wrote:
God bless the post-Axis industrial complex ;-)

As an atheist, I take offense at that! just kidding. The Holocaust, Hitler, God and the Axis power all invoked in a silly thread about a camera. Man, can we get off topic or what? Yes, all of our tax dollars go to fund drones that kill innocent people. We are all complicit. It just depends upon how you choose to rationalize the situation under your particular ideology.

So, that E-P1. What a camera. I fell like I'm a character in a Kurt Vonnegut novel all of a sudden!

Everything counts in large amounts Tariq. Depeche Mode sang on that! We are what they have been!

Rob, as much as I appreciate your point, I will rather evoke any and all subjects in conversation than hide them out of the way in history books. Having said that, hijacking a thread is neither polite nor appropriate IMO, so I agree with Tariq on this one.
Lets get backonto the topic: That E-P1, what a camera

dasrocket wrote:
Everything counts in large amounts Tariq. Depeche Mode sang on that! We are what they have been!



yep, and we all need our own Personal Jesus to take care of all the flys on the Windscreen when we are earning our GodMoney. Agree.

So, lets get a count. Who here has an E-P1 on order already and who here is waiting it out. I'm in the second camp at the moment.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
So, lets get a count. Who here has an E-P1 on order already and who here is waiting it out. I'm in the second camp at the moment.

Waiting it out as I want to see Oly's higher-end body, but the 17 is likely getting ordered next week.

mawz wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
So, lets get a count. Who here has an E-P1 on order already and who here is waiting it out. I'm in the second camp at the moment.

Waiting it out as I want to see Oly's higher-end body, but the 17 is likely getting ordered next week.


And, Panasonic will likely have a competing model out by then, smaller than the G1. Before long, there will be plenty of options and competition.

Waiting it out.

Looking to see if Canon or Nikon follow suit with something similar with an APS sensor (as I have lost of lenses in their mounts and hope for easy adaptation), but might still spring for this with 17mm.

I tend to be able to find stuff in stock here in LA, even after they first come out, so even though I am not on a pre-order list, I will likely grab an EP-1 as soon as I can.

Rob Riley wrote:
well what an utterly cowardly way to attempt to win the argument

to let the pain of a war that began now 70 years ago prevail over common sense in a forum about cameras. As a former soldier, I can speak with at least some authority, that neither soldiers nor people hold any persuasion over their government, even before the shooting starts.

That condition was extant in England, Germany, the USA, and Japan
...................................................where Canon cameras are made..

This man holds no logic, is a virtual stain on the forum community here at FM.

my deepest apologies to all who feel hurt by this conversation, and of those in particular peoples of German decent.

There are a lot of resources to help a forum deal with trolls - they can help in understanding, at a high level, the behavior they exhibit. But the consistent conclusion is that the only way to effectively deal with them is too refuse to respond. If they do not receive the reactions they so compulsively seek they will be compelled to move on.

Here is the first resource I clicked when googling, it is very old - but we can see the species is slow to evolve and the advice is still quite valid...

http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/


Back to the topic - I have a G1 and it seems sturdy enough for a plastic camera. The E-P1 is probably a lot more substantial - but, unfortunately, I don't like to wear my reading glasses around everywhere so I'll have to wait till one arrives with a VF!

Rob Riley wrote:
well what an utterly cowardly way to attempt to win the argument

to let the pain of a war that began now 70 years ago prevail over common sense in a forum about cameras. As a former soldier, I can speak with at least some authority, that neither soldiers nor people hold any persuasion over their government, even before the shooting starts.

That condition was extant in England, Germany, the USA, and Japan
...................................................where Canon cameras are made..

This man holds no logic, is a virtual stain on the forum community here at FM.

my deepest apologies to all who feel hurt by this conversation, and of those in particular peoples of German decent.


I'm sorry, but this is a huge over-reaction if not a misreading of those posts. Sure, it was an unrelated tangent, but that's hardly uncommon here. No one was seriously accusing anyone of anything, and no one was trying to use "the pain of war" to "win an argument". That is patently ridiculous. It was a light quip, that's all. I saw no ill will, no insult, or anything else contained in it. You are stirring up an controversy where there is none. Why? Quite frankly, I'm not even sure who are complaining about when you say, "This man holds no logic, is a virtual stain on the forum community here at FM". Is it Richard, Jorgen, Tariq or anyone else who participated in the discussion tangent? All of these posters are assets to this community, and certainly none of them are "trolls" as suggested by another poster.

I am of German decent (in fact of 2/3'rds of the Axis, and my spouse represents the remaining third). Why would I be offended or hurt in any way? The governments of my forefathers did bad things. Current governments do bad things. So what? That has nothing to do with the comments made. Why should merely mentioning this hurt me? H***, it wouldn't hurt my relatives in Germany.

So give it a rest. Relax. Think before you write, consider the context, the manner and spirit in the which the comment was intended. There was no ill will, no nastiness involved. Think before you try to whip something into much more than it was. Nothing that was said warranted your angry, accusatory response.

War is hell. We get that. That doesn't mean we can't mention it in light conversation.

Ya, I in no way thought that Brainiac was being trollish.

Waiting it out and hoping the price will drop a bit. But I have been waiting for a camera like this, so an EP1 or an Oly or Panasonic alternative are certainly in my future.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
http://www.nemeng.com/leica/005eb.shtml
Interesting reading on Leica during WWII.
...
Tariq Gibran wrote:
The Holocaust, Hitler, God and the Axis power all invoked in a silly thread about a camera. Man, can we get off topic or what?

I'm sorry - I shouldn't have posted the link to the Leica holocaust story ;-)

Now, about the EP1...

I guess the E-P1 just had its London debut. Over at Seriouscompacts, someone has just posted their initial impression with a quick comparison to the Ricoh GRDII and Sigma DP2 regarding size and AF.

Lotusm50 wrote:
This man holds no logic, is a virtual stain on the forum community here at FM.
my deepest apologies to all who feel hurt by this conversation, and of those in particular peoples of German decent.

I am of German decent...
Why should merely mentioning this hurt me?
There was no ill will, no nastiness involved.
War is hell. We get that. That doesn't mean we can't mention it in light conversation.

Lotus, thanks for this abundant sanity. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I guess the E-P1 just had its London debut. Over at Seriouscompacts, someone has just posted their initial impression with a quick comparison to the Ricoh GRDII and Sigma DP2 regarding size and AF.

Yes - it was shown at Jessops last night. I nearly went so that I could share with you my rabidly biased anti-Axis opinion of a hands-on encounter but then I decided I couldn't face the traffic.