If I may be so bold, I have a design suggestion for the mostly designed PCB Einsteins.

The story so far-

According to Paul's posts (as I understand them), the Einstein hit a wall when the contracted electrical design engineer failed to come up with a switching power supply design that included 12v supply. The results were either a) too physically large, or b) small enough but too expensive. This lead to the project being put on hold, with Paul indicated he now plans to learn the necessary technology himself, and personally find a design solution.

I understand that physically large monolights don't have much sex appeal, and of all people PCB is very conscious of keeping the end price very affordable. But perhaps there is another option!?

Imagine the Einstein design (ie super accurate, totally digital power level and color temps) running as a portable power pack with a tiny Elinchrom Quadra sized head, a 60-sec-to-swap 3.6ah SLA battery, and the ability to run directly from mains power.

Having trouble? OK, image something similar to a Profoto 7B that had similar power, was 2/3 the size (a guess), 1/3 the weight (same size battery as Quadra), 1/10 the cost, had 2/3 the recycle time, and came with a matching head that's smaller than Profoto's. (OK, but not as drop proof, and no rarely-used second head output.)

Or, imagine the extremely popular Elinchrom Ranger RX Speed, but again, 2/3 the size (a guess), 1/3 the weight (same size battery as Quadra), had virtually the same power, had a head that was almost as small as the Quadra, 2/3 the flash recycle time, faster flash durations, more consistent color temps, a sport's ultra short flash duration mode, and was approx 1/4 the cost! Plus, you could run directly from mains power, something the Ranger will not do. Add splash resistance, and a 60 sec to change standard SLA battery, and what's not to like? (Presuming it could be built?)

Advantages to the Einstein-

1) Much greater sex appeal, due to small, light strobe head.
2) Small head can be fit into cramped places.
3) Small head blocks less reflected light when using PLM, general brollies, and brolly boxes. Using normal sized monolights with brolly boxes never "looks" right, regardless of how critical the amount of blocked light actually is/isn't.
4) Small head could have brolly holder closer to the flash tube (ie through the 7" PLM Umbrella Reflector) meaning Paul's new parabolic system would work more perfectly.
5) Final design and production could occur reasonably quickly, becuase now Paul doesn't need to keep to monolight size goals.


Advantages to PCB-

1) Greater product differentiation. What will the differences be between the ABMax & the Einsteins? Well at the moment, both will be monolights, but one will be larger, heavier, and have some sort of extra tricky stuff in it that I don't know if I need or not.
2) By making the Einstein a pack & head system, with built in 12v battery, one is obviously location capable out of the box.
3) Appeal to an even wider range of potential customers. A separate head and pack system shouts "serious photography tool" in the way that only packs do. Cash in on this genuine perception.


Please comment on whether you would potentially find such a product, if it were built, appealing ??

I appreciate your suggestions but there are several factors at play:

1. Our customers vastly prefer monolights over pack and head systems.

2. The cost of the cables and connectors and two mechanical assemblies add tremendously to the cost of a pack and head over an equivalent monolight.

3. I have learned enough in the process about designing switching power supplies to scrap the work of the consultant and do it in house in the right size and performance, at the right cost. This is where we are headed - but it will take some time.

Paul Buff wrote:
I appreciate your suggestions but there are several factors at play:

1. Our customers vastly prefer monolights over pack and head systems. .

Paul,

That's probably because

1: Flash heads are typically used by pros, who can afford to go with really top-end gear, and AB is considered great lower-end stuff.

2: The type of flash head system being suggested by shoebox does not exist. The sytems that DO exist are somewhat complicated. If you have a flash head, and want to use a battery pack, why have to also have a control box? -Or they are too expensive. As shoebox sez, the Elinchrom Ranger RX is close to what we want, but a little too high end for my budget. If using one battery per light, the AB battery is perfect. Also, Elinchrom doesn't haver anything quite like the cyber controller. Close, but no. What we want is basically a more powerful version of a Speedlight, and icing on the cake would be a cyber controller to run the whole thing. See my post:

I recently asked about the exact same system as shoebox. I think such a system would be the no-brainer way to go for advanced hobbyists, and pros who mainly do location shooting. See:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/771722/0?keyword=x#7074867

Cableaddict wrote:
Paul Buff wrote:
I appreciate your suggestions but there are several factors at play:

1. Our customers vastly prefer monolights over pack and head systems. .

Paul,

That's probably because

1: Flash heads are typically used by pros, who can afford to go with really top-end gear, and AB is considered great lower-end stuff.

2: The type of flash head system being suggested by shoebox does not exist. The sytems that DO exist are somewhat complicated. If you have a flash head, and want to use a battery pack, why have to also have a control box? -Or they are too expensive. As shoebox sez, the Elinchrom Ranger RX is close to what we want, but a little too high end for my budget. If using one battery per light, the AB battery is perfect. Also, Elinchrom doesn't haver anything quite like the cyber controller. Close, but no. What we want is basically a more powerful version of a Speedlight, and icing on the cake would be a cyber controller to run the whole thing. See my post:

I recently asked about the exact same system as shoebox. I think such a system would be the no-brainer way to go for advanced hobbyists, and pros who mainly do location shooting. See:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/771722/0?keyword=x#7074867

I guess by "pro" you mean the top 1% of the market, indicating the other 99% are amateurs. I guess our customers are stuck in the "lower end".

We have customers that have on the order of 1000 - 5000 ABs. Just a bunch of amateurs apparently.

So, if pros equal 1% of the market my answer is "I'm not interested in serving pros - I'd rather make money - as would my customers".

In the real world, about 50% of our customers are, indeed pros - ie working studio photographers. Check out the "Show me your studio" thread here on FM and count up the AB and WLs. You'll probably come up with about 50% AB, 15%WL and 35% everything else combined, only about 1-2% power packs.

The picture studio in our local mall uses AB 1600-800 for just about every one of their lights.

RobertLynn wrote:
The picture studio in our local mall uses AB 1600-800 for just about every one of their lights.

Most portrait studios I know of use the lowest end of lights because they are cheap and the clients will never know the difference.

Why not make Einstein a dedicated 12 volt system, and use an in-cord converter to plug into a wall or provide a battery that can be charged while you shoot. My guess would be most people would shoot the Einstein would shoot off a battery pack as it clears up cords on the floor.

Paul Buff wrote:
I guess by "pro" you mean the top 1% of the market, indicating the other 99% are amateurs. I guess our customers are stuck in the "lower end".

We have customers that have on the order of 1000 - 5000 ABs. Just a bunch of amateurs apparently. .

Jeez, you really ARE defensive. wow..... I guess there's no point in discussing anything with you.

My bad.

cineski wrote:
Why not make Einstein a dedicated 12 volt system, and use an in-cord converter to plug into a wall or provide a battery that can be charged while you shoot. My guess would be most people would shoot the Einstein would shoot off a battery pack as it clears up cords on the floor.

Exactly. (as I wrote in that other thread.)

This kind of system is inevitable, and surely some other company will come out with something like this very soon. I'm holding out on a big investment until such a system is available, or I might just go for the ranger RX if I can justify the expense.

Portable systems, for outdoor "strobism" are going to be the high growth demand item of the next 5-10 years IMHO.

Wedding & portrait photograpers everywhere are beginning to discover outdoor strobe use. Tens of thousands will start out with the new PW's, RP's etc, but quickly find the need more power than a 100w/s speedlite offers. Where to then? It's a big jump to a 1100 w/s, 11kg, $2-3k Ranger battery pack. Your assistant's get tired fast, trust me.

Elinchrom are on the right path with their little Quadra, which will sell like hotcakes as fast as they can product them. And this despite their seeming to be over priced.

For outdoor use, pack systems simply are better. The main weight is at your tripod base instead of up in the air, creating a much lower center of gravity and a more stable stand. Or, the pack is strung over an assistant's sholder, with only a small weight up in the air on a stick. Either way, they rock for location usage- the new strobe growth sector.

I am with shoebox on this.

I would love to have a very lite head up on the stand with a wire down to a pack with battery and 1000 watts.

Take the Einstein and place it in a box with battery and add on the ZEUS™ Standard Flash Head or lighter head and i would be super happy.

For on location i am not that happy with a top heavy flash..
In studio it is not that big of a deal as it is not going around with you outside.

Shoebox, I agree with you completely. If someone produced a Quadra like system that accepted medium to small modifiers plus umbrellas and did ETTL wirelessly (or at the very least ratio control) at a competive cost (speedlite x 2, RPs or PWs x 3....so around $1200 for a battery pack and two small heads). Imagine how many they would sell.

Just like you said, assitant with a battery pack over their shoulder and one head on a lightstick with umbrella. Formals, put the two small heads on lightstands with a couple med. foldable softboxes. Great system.

However, I do understand where Paul is coming from and here is why:

My brother coaches a youth Hockey team that needed to win one more game to make the state finals. So I went to watch my nephew play in this one game. It was held at an arena with 3 rinks, all indoors. When I walked into the correct ice rink the first thing I noticed was a bunch of AB800's mounted to the wall. I counted 8, then I started looking around and noticed 8 more on the other side of the rink. All being triggered by PWs. Curious, I walked to the other two rinks and took a peek. Sure enough 16 AB800s in each of the other 2 rinks. That made FORTY-EIGHT AB800s. That's when I realized......they must sell a lot of these things. This was just one small town in a pretty big country with a lot towns. Battery packs and heads wouldn't be the right solution for this application.

crockett wrote:
Battery packs and heads wouldn't be the right solution for this application.

Why not? Packs & heads would be easier to set up. Less weight, and no need to run electrical lines.

Paul sez that head-pack systems require a lot more expensive hardware, but they don't if the pack & battery are one unit, and each battery is dedicated to one head. The wiring becomes short, the hardware is simplified, the cost goes way down, wireless control gets simplified, there's no need for asymmetrical power, and you get a nice tripod weight (the pack ) for each light.

The problem with the Ranger RX is that they made the packs able to run two lights. So, you get the limitation of asymmetrical power, a much too long cable, cumbersome hardware implementation, etc etc, plus still a very high cost, if you want to dedicate one pack to each head. Stupid design, IMO. They already have the Ranger line for high-end applications. They should have targeted the RX to semi-pros and serious hobbyists.

I think Paul is saying that the factory assembly of two parts, rather than just one "box" is more expensive. Plus there's the cost of a cable. True.

On the other hand people are paying 2x US$400 for 2x speedlites, + 2x $250 for Radio Poppers (=US$1300), to get a single light weight 100w/s strobe on a stick. (Radio Popper can't keep up with stock, and this is just the beginning of this revolution.)

I believe people will be willing to pay more for an ultra light pack/head with battery system, then they would be for a similar spec studio style monoblock - becuase of the outdoor revolution that's just beginning. This is not about metal body v plastic body (ie AB v WL), this is about a small, ultra-light head, and shoulder pack with built in battery, for fast location shooting.

5-7 years from now, the vast, vast majority of all wedding & portrait photographers will all be using off camera lighting outdoors. What will they buy?

And this is not just about pro's, the Strobist blog site apparently gets a million visitors a month. These guys (mostly hobbists) are going to get sick of the 100w/s power limitation too. At the moment they'd need to cough up close to US$2k for a Quadra, if they could find a store anywhere with stock.

Paul, the market is changing. Outdoors is the new thing.

I don't know what your (multiple posts & posters) intention are, but I think you could "suggest" a product you would like to see on the market with a little more finesse. Give Paul some credit - he knows his market, and has been doing this for - what, about 30 years. I'll admit I reacted in the other thread to the asinine "pro" comment, and really - it is an uninformed opinion (IMO) about what qualifies as pro or not (done by another poster). Yet, you can't feign some lofty plane of objectivity - when you push his buttons using the same incendiary language in this thread. In other words...you provoke, and then act surprised at the reaction. Makes me question whether your intention is flame baiting, or sincere.

Why not? Packs & heads would be easier to set up. Less weight, and no need to run electrical lines.

Uhhhh....because you'd run out of battery power really really fast. Not to mention a single AB800 runs about $300 and has pretty quick flash duration at full power (needed for sports). If it was even possible to put two heads on a single battery pack (not going to happen to shoot sports), you'd have to do two heads and battery for $600.

I think "Commercial photographer" might be a more appropriate term to differentiate between pro photographers who use Profoto, Bron, Dynalite (which are stocked in rental departments), and those who use Alien Bees. This is not to say that commercial photographers don't use AB's - I did, for awhile, for smaller jobs - but AB's will not be an option until they're in rental houses.

Terrific thread, by the way. Many innovations come from photographers with practical ideas about what would work best for them in the field or studio.

what's so different about the small heads and packs that are described here and the products that say lumedyne has been marketing for years? you can pretty much design your own system in terms of power configurations. i know several event and wedding photogs who use and love their lumedyne kits.....

and when you start suggesting ettl/ittl as a feature as someone has in an earier reply, it sounds like the quantum system is being described.

if you look at the prices for these existing small systems-such as those offered by lumedyne, quantum, norman and comet, they are far from what one could categorize as inexpensive.

The simplest solution is to simply keep the monolight / battery component setup. Have a Vagabond II style pouch that only holds a battery that can be used for a light stand weight, run a cord to the 12 volt Einstein, control the light via reliable remote control on the radio trigger. This is the simplest system for design since the strobe would be the only changing factor, with the most on set usability.

I have used lumedyne, Qflash and the large Metz heads.

I now use two SB800s side by side and get more power then the other three and with my own batterys it is a much lighter set up to move around..

The big problem with all of them and my setup is lack of power.
The lumedyne, Qflash and the large Metz heads do not put out 1000 watts or even 640 watts.

I will be first on the list to buy the 1000 watt Einstein.. i would love it to be a pack and head but i will still buy it as it is.

I have the new ABMax 640 on order and will use it till the 1000 watt Einstein is out some day.

digitaled wrote:
I have used lumedyne, Qflash and the large Metz heads.

I now use two SB800s side by side and get more power then the other three and with my own batterys it is a much lighter set up to move around..

The big problem with all of them and my setup is lack of power.
The lumedyne, Qflash and the large Metz heads do not put out 1000 watts or even 640 watts.

I will be first on the list to buy the 1000 watt Einstein.. i would love it to be a pack and head but i will still buy it as it is.

I have the new ABMax 640 on order and will use it till the 1000 watt Einstein is out some day.

there are stackable booster modules available for lumedyne flashes which can get you up to 2400w/s, the modules contain additional capacitors to facilitate the increase in output. ...i think that you can also add two 200w/s modules to the quantum x5dr(400w/s) which will get it up to 800w/s...

Lumedyne's flaws are/were:

* Prohibitively expensive (beyond the most basic, slow recycle kits)
* No remote power control (this is a big deal)
* Lack of compatiable modifers
* Slow recycle, even on speed boosted fast kit if over 400w/s
* Very long flash durations if over 400w/s (except the sports version which offers limited power settings- ie 3 from memory). T.5 at 400w/s is marginal on the non-sports version.

It would have cost me over A$4k to buy a fast recycle version of their 400w/s Sig Kit via the Australian distributor. To be honest, I can't personally see Lumedyne surviving the arrival of the Quadra. Their packs are apparently quite robust, but this small company doesn't seem to have the R&D to offer a better system with wireless power contol.

Someone's going to make a fortune re-equipping the wedding/portrait world with outdoor strobes, but as things stand it won't be Lumedyne.

shoebox9 wrote:
Someone's going to make a fortune re-equipping the wedding/portrait world with outdoor strobes, but as things stand it won't be Lumedyne.

Evidently, it won't be AB, either.

BTW, a really good system (such as a smaller Ranger RX) would also be beneficial indoors, for at least three reasons. 1: better color consistency than Speedlights. 2: Faster recycle time. 3: better diffusion inside the modifiers (due to using a bare bulb)
Therefore, I think it's a mistake to "only" consider this a revolution in outdoor shooting.

What about this for any of the AB flash heads.

A wire that plugs into the head and lets you move the bulb and a new mini head only up high on a stand like what the Q Flash offers.
This would be great.
For when you are not needing a M light.
Keep the large head down with the battery and have just a small lite head up top.
I would buy this right away if it was out.

Back to the Lumedyne by the time you add on all the extras to get 800 or more watts it is one large heavy monster to drag around and will cost way to much.
I liked my Lumedyne setup i had but my two SB800s side by side is so much lighter, offeres much more for power settings, I use them with RPs wireless and to set the power level, my batterys are very lite and it all cost less.