I'd just like to add my voice to the chorus of disappointed PW customers. I shoot with a 5D Mark II and a EOS 1D Mark III and have found the range with my two 580EX II's to be limited to no more than 30 feet which all but eliminates PW's for sport shooting. (unless it's chess or tidliwinks) It took many hours of adjustments and juryrigging to get a modicum of consistency and even now, I'm never sure what is going to pop out of my flashes. When they work they are great, but predictability is the name of the game if you are a professional.

Unfortunately, I sold my PW II plus units to buy the TT1 and TT5's. I did it based on my experience with the Plus II's (rock solid) and trust in the truth of PW's advertising. (I was an early adopter). If PW didn't know about the problems before they put these units out they were truly negligent in their testing and evaluation process. (wouldn't it make sense to distribute a few hundred models to pros for testing before going to market?) If they did know of the issues we are dealing with an integrity issue which cuts much deeper into their credibility - it is after all the most valuable thing a company posseses. If this company has the audacity to charge it's customers for the fixes they issue to the defective products they've produced they are even worse than the US auto makers. Even they didn't charge for modifications they made to products they were forced to recall. For PW to charge for a "shield" which supposedly will bring their product into line with the specs they originally claimed is ludicrious at best and fraudulent in any other sense. I hope the user community will rise up as one in protest to this snake oil approach to marketing.

I want to like this company - I really do. But trust has to be earned and right now my trust in this company is at a tipping point. I appreciate that they have identified the problem and are working to solve it, but the cost of the solution should not have to be borne by their customers.

@channel 20 - users:
does it mean, you only work with one configuration? (or do you use a different channel for configutation 2)
thanks

philllie1 wrote:
@channel 20 - users:
does it mean, you only work with one configuration? (or do you use a different channel for configutation 2)
thanks



I don't have any need to setup C2 for anything different. Setting it for 19 should give good results as well if you want to have a backup in case you run into an event where someone else is using the system on channel 20.

ok,that makes sense. thanks for all your info.

I've borrowed a Pocket Wizard II Plus to do some exact comparative testing for both transmission and receiving.

I'll update with test results upon completion.

The test was pretty boring actually.

On the left I got about 200 feet out of the Mini transmitting to a standard PW

on the right I got about 230 feet with a PlusII transmitting to a standard PW

Just another neat feature of the new PW TT5's.

I just tested my 5Dmk2 with a TT5 on top and a TT5 hooked into a WL X1600. I started my sync speed at 1/60 and went all the way up to 1/8000 with full sync and no issues. Very cool.....

K_Strecker wrote:
Here's the mini and flex on the job - outdoors!

a good ole ezybox w/ 580EX and the 430EXII on rimlight duty.

Very nice, Kurt. (I just now saw your thread.)

Was the 580 on or off camera? ETTL or manual mode?

Bill Adam wrote:
I'm still a bit unhappy with the fact that I cannot trigger the flex with one of my PW plus II's or the PW cartridge in my Sekonic light meter unless I re-configure the flex to fire with a standard channel instead of the ControlTL channel. Not a big deal as long as I remember to change the setting when needed.


I'm late to this thread and a new owner of three FlexTT5's and two MiniTT1's (plus a bunch of regular PW's and PWII's).

So far (and I'm still experimenting) I have C1 set to use a ControlTL channel for when I want to use ETTL. With ETTL there really isn't any reason to be using the handheld light meter so the fact that the meter can't trigger the flashes isn't really a big deal.

I have C2 set to use a standard Rx channel (matching the channel I use in my other PW's and in my Sekonic L-358) and it seems to be working fine this way. I can wirelessly trigger the flashes from my meter, another PW or a MiniTT1.

In fact, when I switch to C2 and the flash is still in ETTL mode, nothing works (I get a bunch of red flashes of the LED) and I have to switch the flash to manual mode.

Bottom line, less than 24 hours with the units and I'm liking them more and more.

Cheers!

K_Strecker wrote:
I don't have any need to setup C2 for anything different. Setting it for 19 should give good results as well if you want to have a backup in case you run into an event where someone else is using the system on channel 20.

Kurt, do you shoot exclusively in ETTL mode? Never in manual mode? My own experience with ETTL is pretty slim and most of my flash use has been fully manual, but now with the Flex and Mini units I'm anxious to experiement more with ETTL.

So right now I've got C1 set for ETTL (using ControlTL Rx channel 20) and it seems to be working well.

I have C2 set for manual use, with the Rx channel set to Standard channel 4 (the same channel I use in my other PW and PWII units as well as in my Sekonic L-358 meter). This allows me to use the meter to trigger the flash units for taking a reading.

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but the FlexTT5 units can only receive on ONE channel... either one of the ControlTL channels or one of the Standard channels. Is that right? If so, then I've got things set right. When shooting in ETTL mode, the units are using a ControlTL Rx channel (which my regular PW units and my meter cannot use) and when shooting in Manual mode, the units are using a Standard Rx channel (which precludes using ETTL anyway) which allows my regular PW units and my flash meter to trigger the flashes.

And this seems to be working quite well for me.

Yeah, i've had little need to go manual with the Flex and either 580 or 430EXII. The rational for using ETTL in stage-lighting is that when I focus on one musician near the stage in frame 1, and a musician on the far end of the stage in frame 2, they need to both get the same ammount of light. ETTL adjusts for this automatically, and does a damn good job of it.

You've got yours set up fine, though the strobes will continue to work in manual on your C1 flexes.

Also keep in mind that the mini sends *both* a controlTL signal and a standard PW signal, on two different channels.

So you can fire your ETTL flashes on Flexes on C1, while simulatenously triggering standard pocket wizards on manual strobes.

K_Strecker wrote:
You've got yours set up fine, though the strobes will continue to work in manual on your C1 flexes.


But the opposite isn't true... right? Meaning if I've disabled the ControlTL Rx channel and am using only a Standard Rx channel on the Flex, the flash must then be in manual mode. I've left all my gear at the office tonight but will experiment some more tomorrow.

In any case, even though the flashes would work in manual mode even in my C1 configuration (using a ControlTL Rx channel) from what you say, it wouldn't work for me because then my Sekonic L-358 with PW module wouldn't be able to trigger the flashes. So for my needs, I would really have to use separate C1 and C2 configurations, with one set to use a ControlTL Rx channel for when I'm shooting in ETTL mode and the other set to use a Standard Rx channel for when I'm in manual mode so that my Sekonic meter could be used to trigger the flashes.

Unless I've said something very wrong above, I think I'm starting to understand how this all works and I'm pretty pleased with it all.

Cheers!

seems like you've got it.

I'm pretty convinced that 90% of the issues people are having with these units is based more on the misunderstanding of how/why they work. You're 100% right about why they don't need triggering with the flash meter when in ETTL mode, yet it's a major point of complaint by people who have heard that it doesn't work and complain loudly about it without even owning the system.

But, as I mentioned, Pocket Wizard set it up in such a way so that you could . . .

have studio strobes lighting the background to get High-Key, use your light meter to trigger and meter them,

Then, without changing any settings, have your Mini fire the Canon flashes which are lighting the subject using ETTL . . . and fire the background flashes to get your white backdrop.

I've certainly been in high-volume situations using high-key backdrop where people don't pay attention to where they should stand ( X Marks the spot people . . . ) but they're still in front of the white background. Having them be lit by ETTL, and the background working in manual like normal, would be a great solution to this problem. Or a dancer who's jumping but not 100% predictably in front of that same background. If he jumps to close to a manually controlled light he'll be overexposed, but if he jumps right in front of an ETTL strobe he'll be perfectly lit.

I realy like it, I have mini tt1 and PW plus, working with Broncolor packs and Whitelightning 2400 up to 1/1000 with my 1DII, interested if I'll buy Multimax instead of Plus will it go up to 1/8000?

Kurt, I really have just about no experience with ETTL flash shooting as everything I've done in the past has been fully manual. But based on your obvious success with this and the tips you've shared in this thread, I did some experimenting...

While my results were surprisingly good, I did run into some glitches which MAY be caused by the known problems PW has with the 5DII. I'll tell you what I was doing and perhaps you might be able to offer some comments.

Using a 580EXII on top of a MiniTT1 on a 5DII body, with a 430EXII on a FlexTT5 set to channel B, I used ratio control on the 580 to switch to A:B mode with a ratio of 1:2. I had the 430 off to one side of the subject to act as a bit of an accent light.

With the camera in "P" mode (I can't believe that I actually tried P mode!) the exposures looked really good. I switched to "M" mode on the camera with the flashes still in ETTL mode and with the same settings/ratios. Here's what I got:

1/160th @ f8 - Image was almost entirely black
1/160th @ f7.1 - good images
1/125th @ f8 - again a near perfect result
1/160th @ f8 - black band at the bottom of the horizontal image
1/125th @ f8 - image was almost entirely black
1/125th @ f7.1 - near perfect result

From my results it seems that not only is there an aperture-related issue (as is documented in the manual addendum) but that the results are inconsistent. And that's even more annoying than a known aperture-related problem (which hopefully would eventually be solved).

I sure hope the new firmware solves these problems and that it's available soon!

Seems more like issues with the 5DMkII, with which I have no experience.

I did have some weirdness personally with my 1D MkIII, giving me banding at 2 specific shutter speeds but no others. Turns out to have been a strangeness with setting the Camera Model to 1D MkIII. When set to Auto, everything works fine at all shutter speeds and f/stops.

RE: the Firmware Update

"Firmware release update: With the short week here and some last minute tweaks, we're holding the beta release until next week. We are testing the version we hope will be the beta right now. There will be some fireworks photo testing over the July 4th weekend, then we'll hopefully be posting it late Monday or Tuesday if it's working as expected."

Also, when using ratios with Canon ETTL it helps to keep this in mind.

You set the Max exposure of whatever Group has the Highest Ratio (let's say A:B = 4:1) with the FEC (flash exposure compensation).

So if you set an FEC of +2, then the A group will exposure for +2 and the B group will dial *down* to +0.

If you drop FEC to +0, then A will expose for +0 and B will expose for -2.

Even changing the ratio to 8:1, with an FEC of +3, you'll get A expsing for +3 and B exposing for +0.

In other words, you'll never get a brighter exposure by increasing the ratio. The ratio only serves to *reduce* the exposure of the group below what's dialed in via FEC.

make sense?

Sorry Kurt, but I'm having a hard time understanding what you said. Let me try to restate it in my words to see if I get it...

Without using any FEC... you set the ratio say to 2:1 A:B (or to whatever ratio gives the effect you want). That way your B flash will be at -1 for the exposure. IF your flash exposure isn't what you wanted, while keeping the same ratio between A and B, you use FEC to increase or decrease the overall flash exposure. Is that right?

And when you say to use FEC, do you suggest doing that on the flash (the A or master) or in the camera body?

It's disappointing that the new firmware is delayed, but since I'm picking up a new car in an hour, I guess I'll have enough to play with over the weekend anyway.

Cheers!

yep, you've got it.

Set FEC on the camera body.

K_Strecker wrote:
seems like you've got it.

I'm pretty convinced that 90% of the issues people are having with these units is based more on the misunderstanding of how/why they work. quote]

hi Kurt
very appreciate your info here and am happy for you, that your flex's are working fine.
but...I can't let stand the above - because it's just not true. if I test my flex's in a short range, follow all the instructions, and they hardly ever fire, it's not a misunderstanding. I tried together with another pro, very pw experienced, same results. And: if the 580's fire about every 3rd time, but the 550ex only about every 20th time or not at all - its probably not the user's problem. again: within the sub 15 feet range.
I have talked and met up with quite a few other 5dII owners and they had the same or similar issues.
In fact since the last firmware update, where we are no supposed 5dII as camera model, things got even worse.
after all this trouble I really have to calm down, when reading about misunderstanding - nothing personal with you though. appreciate your posts

Your comment actually supports my point. the 550EX has zero RF noise. none. You'll get upwards of 400 feet of usable range out of it. So, there's something else at work there. Could just be simple 5DmkII incomparability which is to be addressed today or tomorrow via a beta-version firmware release. Could be some other simple oversight. Yesterday I was hurrying and couldn't figure out why my 580EX wasn't firing. I had switched it too far and landed on C group instead of B, and that's all it was.

And, even with that taken into consideration, you're still just a handful of people. you could all be having exactly the problems you're having and my statement could still stand true. Of course I can't prove it, I don't know how many Flex/Minis have sold and I don't know for a fact the proportions of people having success vs problems . . . There are a half dozen threads on flickr where I've helped people who were having the same problems, or worse, and we've arrived at a solution simply by setting them up properly or diagnosing the deeper issue.

Sorry for your troubles, but it doesn't matter how much experience one has with old pocket wizards, one can still make a mistake in the setup and use of these and one will probably be too quick to blame the system due to the internet buzz around their "problems"

philllie1 wrote:
hi Kurt
very appreciate your info here and am happy for you, that your flex's are working fine.
but...I can't let stand the above - because it's just not true. if I test my flex's in a short range, follow all the instructions, and they hardly ever fire, it's not a misunderstanding. I tried together with another pro, very pw experienced, same results. And: if the 580's fire about every 3rd time, but the 550ex only about every 20th time or not at all - its probably not the user's problem. again: within the sub 15 feet range.
I have talked and met up with quite a few other 5dII owners and they had the same or similar issues.
In fact since the last firmware update, where we are no supposed 5dII as camera model, things got even worse.
after all this trouble I really have to calm down, when reading about misunderstanding - nothing personal with you though. appreciate your posts


I am not 100% satisfied yet either with these new PW's, but really the only problem I seem to be having with them is the documented issue with fast-aperture lenses and the 5DII which should (hopefully!!!) be solved with the next firmware.

As far as reliable firing goes, so far I haven't had ANY issues. The units have fired every time, even when everything is only feet apart or as far away as I usually work. (That's not far, and unless one day I have a special need, I'm quite happy with 25 to 50 feet.)

One of the things I did immediately upon getting my units (three FlexTT5's and two MiniTT1's) was to change the ControlTL Tx and Rx channels to #20. I could have been earlier in this very thread that I saw that suggestion. I don't know if that contributed to my success or not, but as I said, I have so far not had any problem with firing the units reliably.

I'm shooting with two 5DII's and in most of my use so far, I have had NO flash on the MiniTT1 on the camera - all flashes have been remote and on FlexTT5s. I have used a mix of my 580EXII, a 550EX and two 430EXII's. I did do some testing with a 580EXII on the camera (but not a lot) and that too seemed to work reliably.

I've also tested with several of my original PW's and PWII's, both as triggers and receivers (although then not in ETTL mode) and I was happy with that also.

The only thing I haven't tried yet is any of the high-speed sync stuff as I haven't needed it.

I sure hope you can figure out why your units are not working better.

downloaded new firmware and tested with my 5dII. Some things have really improved. So much about being quick about blaming the system...


what works better:
-reliability in channel 1
-reliability with st-e2

Some things still don't work reliable for me (I only have the 5dII):

-because of range recommendations I also tried channel 20. But this unusable, erratic, some radios don't fire

-flash via OC-E3 Cord, with flex in camera-hoshoe: erratic; full-power flashes occasionally

Has anybody tested with a 5dII and made the same experiences?
(I know, most will probably say again, its not the system but my mistake, if channel 1 works much better than 20 )


while not perfect, and there is still a lot of room for improvement, at least the radios are now in a condition that I may start really using them. 2 months after I bought them.

So i do have to get to know a little more about ettl, here I have to be blamed and not the radios
I know the basics that were mentionned above. But am kind of looking for a good overview about some settings and what they cause, for example:
- if I set fec on-camera, does it oversteer the settings on the flash, and if yes, which ones (same/different zones) or how does it relate output...etc

While it's odd that you're having more problems with Ch 20 than Ch1, I think that just illustrates the randomness of RF noise from the flashes.

Your flash may just have a slightly higher frequency of RF noise than those who are having luck with CH20. . . If your CH1 is working better than other channels for you that's all that matters. But, for fun it might be worth trying some middle channels to find your flash's own little sweet spot.

philllie1 wrote:... for example:
- if I set fec on-camera, does it oversteer the settings on the flash, and if yes, which ones (same/different zones) or how does it relate output...etc


But this is the kind of thing that is in the manuals. Not that the manuals are great, but they are a good start if you haven't already.

K_Strecker wrote:
While it's odd that you're having more problems with Ch 20 than Ch1, I think that just illustrates the randomness of RF noise from the flashes.

Your flash may just have a slightly higher frequency of RF noise than those who are having luck with CH20. . . If your CH1 is working better than other channels for you that's all that matters. But, for fun it might be worth trying some middle channels to find your flash's own little sweet spot.

Hi again
yes, I was not clearly enough about this. Channel 1 works reliable in short range, but at around 50ft (outdoor) its usually over. (with an st-e2 even earlier at around 25-30ft).
therefore I wanted to try channel 20, which some of you suggested as best from their experience. but in channel 20 it becomes really strange While some flex work well, others hardly ever (or never) fire. (I only tested in sub 15ft range)