I am looking for advice how to handle a situation. Some of you may know me from prior posts. I have been taking pictures of my son's sports teams now for 5+ years. During this time I have evolved from using a 20D with a kit lens and PaintShop Pro s/w to a 40D with a 70-200 2.8 and 300 F4 and PS CS3.

In my "early years" years I would burn a bunch of CDs and just gave away my photos to all the parents on the team. Now I want to evolve into selling my photos. I am not trying to replace my day job, but would like to earn some $$ that I could put towards my next lens purchase (possibly a 300 2.8). Last Spring I made my first sale - I created a team poster of my son's little league team that half the parents purchased. This season I have been having a blast taking thousands of shots during the baseball season. Parents keep asking me when can they get the pictures. I signed up for a Pro account on SmugMug and set up my first gallery. I was all set to send everyone a link to it when my wife commented that some parents may think it is weird that I am charging for the shots. They want them for free on a DVD.

Now I don't know what to do. I have probably spent 50+ hours of my time taking/editing/organizing 3,000 shots. I doubt any of the parents are aware of my time and $$ investment in my gear. The league has a professional photographer who covers the whole league. He came to one of my son's games this year while I attended every one. I am not trying to compete with him (he is much more skilled than I). I have shots that he doesn't simply because I was there.

My wife gave me good advice for next season. She said at the start of the season I should tell everyone that I am a semi-pro who will be taking pictures of my son. If they would like, I will also take pictures of their son. I would post these online for them to review and purchase (no obligation). If they know they are not interested, please tell me and I won't photograph their son. I can tell them that the league will have a photographer attend one game. I can honestly praise his work - he is very good. What I am offering is season-long coverage. I would only do this for my son's team. This plan sounds fine for the future, but what should I do now?

I was planning on setting my prices to be around 40% less than what the league's pro charges. Assuming you think I should go ahead and post them for sale, what do you think of that idea?

Some options I am considering:
1. Full fledged sales mode. I have flagged 800 photos of the team throughout the year. I would upload these and let parents buy prints.
2. Give away photos from one game but sell photos from the rest.
3. Forget about printing and post all the photos and let people download them for a nominal fee, say $2 each.

It seems I am stuck in a corner. If I post 800 shots and give them away for $2 each, is that fair to me? What about the professional photographer? If I sell them how do I respond to requests of "just email me the picture"?

I don't know why I didn't think about posting this question here sooner. I can't wait to read what everyone writes about this.

Chip

P.S. All of the boys on the team know about my poster and have been asking all season long if I am doing another.

I may be off-base but it might be that you would be beyond your legal rights to sell to the parents if the League photographer has an exclusivity clause. Legally, they can't stop you from taking pictures of your kid, or any of the other kids for that matter, but once you start charging.....that's a whole other can of worms.

I'd check with the league to see what kind of contract, if any, this photographer has. I also know that once you start talking about a professional venture, and others will know more about this, but the league may require liability insurance just in case a kid trips over you camera bag or accidentally runs into the little white 70-200 while you're shooting something on the other side of the field.
Good luck!

There is a lot at issue here. First... TN is right. You would have to get the ok from the league before you even attempt to sell one of your photos.

Two... whether, the hired photographer is there for one game or not shouldn't make a difference in the matter. He is the hired photogapher. If you think you are better then so be it... make a presentation, purchase all your marketing materials, get liability insurance, decide on a percentage donation, etc. and bid on it. But if every semi-pro did what you did at a game, the hired photographer wouldn't make a dime and still have to shell out money for insurance, liability, kickback etc and that's not fair at all.

Three... in regards to once giving away your stuff away. No offense, but you made your bed, now lie in it. This is the exact reason why we always encourage photographers, pro or not to NOT give away your work for free. Now, parents come to expect it. Not only from you, but from the other photographer as well. This practice wrecks the entire industry.

Sorry to say, but you don't have my sympathy here. You have done everything possible to take money away from the professional photograher and now you turn here to get advice from the professional photographer. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

Very diplomatically said Paul. I agree 100%.

My only suggestion for you to break free of the situation you've made for yourself is to approach the contracted professional photographer and pitch the idea of you subcontracting with him to shoot the team. Then he offers your photos for sale to the parents. He gets a cut and you get a cut or a flat fee or whatever you work out. You could then have a truthful reason to not give your photos away to the parents. And, you get some experience on what it's like to shoot for hire. Finally, you work under the umbrella of a pro who's doing it the right way instead of undercutting him.

Chip,

You certainly won’t get a lot of love on this forum. Giving away photos is about on par with dog fighting on this forum. I’m not a pro shooter. I have made the same mistake over the years. If you really want to earn a second income from sports photography it might be easier if you chose a different arena for your sales. Find a team or league that needs a shooter and sell these photos. For your son’s team, limit your shots to create less work and continue to supply the kids with a few shots each season. If you want to create a team poster, you should feel free to charge for that. However, don’t offer photos to your team if you don’t have the consent of the league. Respect those photographers that have jumped through hoops to get the contract.

Good luck!

Ben

I don't disagree with comments posted above, but have to give some consideration to the fact that although there is a league photographer who doesn't show up to 99% of the games is a challenge for parents. If you are taking that many photos and the quality is good enough to generate demand, you might want to contact the league photographer and seeing if they are interested in a business relationship.

I take many photos of my son's games, I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots and if I see a pro at a game taking photos I put the camera away, actually if it's covered I don't bring the camera and I do buy their shots, encourage others to buy their shots.

A comment on the forum, maybe it's time to create a new forum for business issues and separate them from technical threads. I think more people are interested in learning how to take a better photo and really appreciate the support and guidance from the pro's v the religous wars of the hobbyist v. pro. Should there be a rule on the forum, no business discussion allowed or bounce the business questions over to the Pro forum?

Ben Amato wrote:
...it might be easier if you chose a different arena for your sales...

What he said.

Also, search this forum for "youth sports" and read, read, read; TONS of information and advice addressing all aspects of what you want to do.

Patrick Lanius wrote:
Very diplomatically said Paul. I agree 100%.

My only suggestion for you to break free of the situation you've made for yourself is to approach the contracted professional photographer and pitch the idea of you subcontracting with him to shoot the team. Then he offers your photos for sale to the parents. He gets a cut and you get a cut or a flat fee or whatever you work out. You could then have a truthful reason to not give your photos away to the parents. And, you get some experience on what it's like to shoot for hire. Finally, you work under the umbrella of a pro who's doing it the right way instead of undercutting him.

This could be a cracking good plan, it's not totally unlike how I got started. And I still work with him on various jobs 4 years later.

Think of the old story about the young bull and the old bull standing on top of the hill looking down on a herd of cows. The young bull says "why dont we run down there and *snap* one of them cows. The old bull says no, lets walk down there and *snap* them all.

If you work this smartly, you'll end up with more cow :-)

Merv.

I shoot leagues and my contracts are always Exclusive and the advice you have been given should be taken, first you have legal issues in that the OP migh have an exclusivity clause with the league that would prevent you from doing what you are doing, second I would contact the league and find out what contract is in place and if it is in place contact the pro and see if you can partner with him. Lastly you have a hard hill too climb after giving away everything for free. Good luck and I hope it works out for you

Chip,

Re-read Paul's and Patrick's post again. They have said it all.

Richard K.

Think of the old story about the young bull and the old bull standing on top of the hill looking down on a herd of cows. The young bull says "why dont we run down there and *snap* one of them cows. The old bull says no, lets walk down there and *snap* them all.

If you work this smartly, you'll end up with more cow :-)

Merv.

This cracks me up.....I'm all for more cow!!!

Seriously, if the pro is contracted, you got a problem. I agree, go try and sub out with him.....or next year if you have the chops/moxy take the step to the next level and you be the pro (lots of time will be invested). So, depending on the time you have to invest and get insured etc. that is a decision you have to make. My hats off to the hardworking pro photographers (I used to be there with ya guys and gals!) and the comments about working pros are very valid.

I am a teacher by trade and drive our athletic bus sometimes to the games and actually get paid all through the game until we get back to school as a bus driver, but shoot photos at the games and sell them to my students/athletes on my smugmug account. I am very reasonable and do not step on toes as I rarely see another semi-pro/former pro at these games. I use the website for our personal photos and the money from the student photos pays for the site and purchases of gear.


I allow the purchase of both downloads and prints since many parents don't have the time/skill to print the photos and the pro lab with smugmug is located 30 miles from us so we get photos somtimes in 2 days from ordering. Just my 2 and half cents.

More cow......AND......more cowbell!

Wow, I am so glad that I posted this question! Thank you all for some great advice and insight. The last thing I want to do is undercut the hired photographer or the industry as a whole. I never thought of approaching him about the idea of subcontracting with him for coverage of the team. Patrick, that is such a good idea and could be a win-win for both of us!

The thought of just giving away the photos was very unappealing for several reasons, some of which you all have mentioned. That option is now off the table! Your advice has given me the perfect excuse for how to answer parents who ask for the photos. I will tell them that "I am in the process of contacting the league's photographer to see if there is a way that I can legally make the photos available to them."

I want to clarify something I wrote in my post. It has been over three years since I have given the photos away. When I was doing that I was basically not much beyond the level of point and shoot. Once I started investing in the hobby, including taking classes and discovering/ joining forums like this one, I stopped that practice.

Thank you all again for helping me avoid a huge mistake.

Moving forward, if the hired photographer and I work out a deal, great. If not, I am going to delete my photos of other kids from this and past seasons and next year my 70-200 will be pointing exclusively at my son. For now, the only photo I will offer is my team poster (which I spend 10+ hours creating). I will post a follow-up to let you know what happens.

P.S. When I woke up at 7:00 am the first thing I did was rush to see what answers I had from my question which I posted just 6 hours earlier. My initial reaction to the reply was "Oh s _ _ _ _!" From your perspectives your comments were probably restrained. From mine it was like a punch in the gut because the last thing I want to do is undermine the industry. Then I thought it over more and realized that your responses were not only expected, but logical. I truly am glad that you all opened my eyes before I made a mistake.

<< P.S. When I woke up at 7:00 am the first thing I did was rush to see what answers I had from my question which I posted just 6 hours earlier. My initial reaction to the reply was "Oh s _ _ _ _!" From your perspectives your comments were probably restrained. From mine it was like a punch in the gut because the last thing I want to do is undermine the industry. Then I thought it over more and realized that your responses were not only expected, but logical. I truly am glad that you all opened my eyes before I made a mistake. >>

The responses you got and your reaction to them makes it clear how much of a topnotch forum this can be. Think of how many lurkers benefited from this thread, too.

Hany

Can I just say that this forum is so awesome when we all get along.

This is the perfect example of someone asking for legitimate help, getting some great advice without being flamed, and then being genuinely grateful and not offended by said advice.

Thanks all, you rock!

Thanks Paul - you kept me from having to write pretty much the exact same thoughts....
So Ditto what Paul says!

Michael

P Alesse wrote:
There is a lot at issue here. First... TN is right. You would have to get the ok from the league before you even attempt to sell one of your photos.

Two... whether, the hired photographer is there for one game or not shouldn't make a difference in the matter. He is the hired photogapher. If you think you are better then so be it... make a presentation, purchase all your marketing materials, get liability insurance, decide on a percentage donation, etc. and bid on it. But if every semi-pro did what you did at a game, the hired photographer wouldn't make a dime and still have to shell out money for insurance, liability, kickback etc and that's not fair at all.

Three... in regards to once giving away your stuff away. No offense, but you made your bed, now lie in it. This is the exact reason why we always encourage photographers, pro or not to NOT give away your work for free. Now, parents come to expect it. Not only from you, but from the other photographer as well. This practice wrecks the entire industry.

Sorry to say, but you don't have my sympathy here. You have done everything possible to take money away from the professional photograher and now you turn here to get advice from the professional photographer. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

+1 for Paul's post and pretty much everything else that's been said here.

Honestly when I read the OP I immediately thought to myself, "uh oh. Here we go again." But I do have to say that this is definitely one of the most civilized and constructive threads of a potentially volatile topic that I've read for sometime. Refreshing to see the OP open to the comments and opinions given.

Hopefully the league-hired pro isn't too short-sighted to see the benefits of having someone else help out.

What Paul said, plus what Patrick said with one caveat.

Chip, you might want to think about what a "semi-pro" photographer is. And, more importantly, what would the parents or the other pro you might be approaching to work with think a "semi-pro" photographer is?

IMO, you're either a pro or a hobbyist. You really can't have it both ways. When it comes to getting paid for images or hired to shoot, the approach has to be that of a professional. Nothing "semi" about it. One either shoots like a pro or not. You have necessary liability insurance or not. You market yourself and "walk-the-walk" like a pro or you don't. Would the contracted photographer want to hire a semi-pro or a pro? I realize some could argue this is semantics, but I believe it's an important part in taking that next step you're asking about. It's a mindset that, IMO, can make a big difference in your success.

I understand many of us have day jobs and other sources of income. But I also know many us who have day jobs approach our photography in a professional manner. I can't imagine telling a parent or possible client that I'm just a "semi-pro", and turn around and ask them to hire me to shoot their kid or buy my images. To some degree, that "semi-pro" approach hurts the industry the same way giving away images does.

I played "semi-pro" football a few years back. We were suppose to get paid to play, but most of the time if we saw any money coming our way it barely covered our expenses. The fact is, it was much more like a glorified men's league. There wasn’t much “pro” about it.

I would suggest before you take Patrick's advice, get use to calling yourself a pro. Nothing wrong with that and I don’t believe it’s deceitful. If people ask, I don’t hesitate to tell them I have a day job. But I’m not going to let that be an excuse that keeps me from also being (and acting like) a professional photographer.

Good luck.




I should add, that I still go out and shoot my own kids’ sports and school activities. And I enjoy it. When I do that, I shoot what I want, when I want and if someone asks me about photos, I kindly give them a card and tell them I would be glad to visit with them about how to get quality images of their kid(s). IMO, being a professional photographer doesn’t preclude one from also being a dad.

Thanks for the great advice Scott. I agree with everything you say.

My Pleaure!!! Been There.....Done that!!!!..........Cowbells and all!!!

I need to add one small thing to this.
It seems that this is never brought up in discussions about this subject.

In the USA (state laws vary) You have to have 3 legal licenses to sell anything to anyone.
Smug mug or not. If you are selling to anyone you have to have a license to do so.
In Michigan you have to have a legal DBA filed with the county, A state sales tax license and a I.D. number and you have to have a letter of approval from the zoning commission in the township wherever your PC will upload photos from. Call it your home office if you will.

So without those not only may you be stepping on the toes of a contracted Pro but you also may be violating the laws of this country.
You should research those laws and see what you need to do to be legal.
It falls along the lines of what Scott was talking about. If you want to sell then you are Pro. Getting everything legal will help that mindset and help you consider yourself a Pro.
Once you pay all the fees involved you ay reconsider your idea of selling at 40% less than the Pro too..

The way I see it. If you contact the contracted Pro would be your best bet. You can sell under him and not have to spend all the fees involved. You also will not have to spend the money on insurance. Although you should have some anyway.
It looks like your best bet here..

Chip, Let me say that even though as Paul put it, you made your bed, you are the type of parent with a camera (no offense) that I like to see. One, that even though they originally thought they had a great idea, understands the errors made and accepts it. Too many times I hear the exact opposite, and sometimes very rudely. Your understanding and acceptance should be bottled and given to all new camera owners. I was just at a game where a parent with a camera opened the gate to get a better shot of her son on first base when a line drive shot through the now open gate and nailed another parent square in the back, because the parent with a cam did not understand that not only is opening the gate during play is against the rules, but she came very close to getting slammed in the head. My first thought was, man, I hope she has insurance.

All I can say is WOW !

You see this everywhere; now a days

Best one I’ve heard is

“Does anyone have some extra space between turn one and turn four on the straight away? I'll take lots of pictures of your car and give you free pictures for you and your sponsors if you let me invade your space for a bit.... Oooooo... and I can even make homemade cookies for your family and crew”

When someone is busting his/her but at 70 to 90 events a year taking 500/1000 pics at an event and you hear stories like this

Mikekel, you stated - I take many photos of my son's games, I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots and if I see a pro at a game taking photos I put the camera away, actually if it's covered I don't bring the camera and I do buy their shots, encourage others to buy their shots.

I am going to my son's soccer tournament this weekend and I am pretty sure they have a hired photographer shooting the tournament. I plan on taking my D300 and 300 F/2.8 and capture some great photos of my son. I am not shooting to sell any photos, just capture alot of my son. I don't feel this is taking away from the pro photographer, so I don't feel the need to leave my gear in the car. Am I wrong here?

Great thread with excellent, respectful advice.

James, I'm not sure what you're asking when you say " I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots" - does this mean you are taking images of their kids, too, and if so, what are you doing with these?

Just because you don't see a "pro" working a game doesn't mean one isn't contracted to cover the league (or tournament). Most times I've worked youth tournaments and leagues we've organized the shooters to make sure at least one game of each team is covered and we bust our tails to get at least 5 GREAT shots of every kid (even those who don't play - this is why warm-ups can be important) - I keep a note pad on my monopod and tally the player's number and how many shots I got of him or her. We will only go back to cover a team a second time if we've missed a particular player (and then usually only at the request of a parent who maybe reviewed the images and wants something more or different, and this normally comes with some sort of refundable deposit and usually it only if we can fit it into our schedule of covering the other teams).

I am also a Dad who takes shots of my kid, as are many on this board. However, I know for a fact that nobody has contracted with his school (talked with the AD and the coaches). If you do take shots of your son, and there is a pro assigned, you are technically taking potential sales of the images taken of your boy away from the "pro". Of course you have the right to photograph your own son, but you might want to check out the pro's shots and if he gets some good images, support his/her hard work by buying something.