Paul - very useful post. I'm sure it will be referred to many time in the future. Isabellian - a new word is born!

Max, I'm with Bob on the PP. Most of us can tell a shot that has been over-processed but IMO, learning how to effectively and appropriately PP your images is part of learning how to be a photographer. Most DSLR's require some level of PP, especially for sharpness.

Sure, this isn't a forum for how to use Photoshop, but Photoshop is a tool, just like a lens, or an SLR, or a flash, etc. Figuring out how to use all these tools well (and again, appropriately), and developing the "eye" to grab good sports shots is what we're all trying to do, right? When someone posts images here, my thoughts are they should be as finished as they can be.

Bob, on the EXIF, I respectfully disagree. Many times (especially with a new forum member) knowing the EXIF data can really help with the obvious issues a photograph my have. If someone posts a High School baseball shot and the SS is 1/200s it's gonna be easier to tell them why their shot isn't sharp, for example. Or if their aperture is f/8 then a comment can be "open up your lens more to remove some of the distracting background and/or to isolate the player more". I kinda see the EXIF as one of the baselines to an image critique. Sure, you can provide useful comments without this data, but it can facilitate C&C if the EXIF is posted.

Excellent and very enjoyable thread.

And, BTW, I've seen Max without make-up, and he looks like, well, Max.

Don't even start me on bat on ball images. I prefer the wraparound.

As for the makeup thing, I wasn't sidestepping, I simply thought it was a joke. I am pretty much the same guy at a shoot, on my days off, at home or out at night.

Bob, I'm in total agreement that Photoshop is part of the cycle. I get that. But I'd still like to see the image in a more natural state, to see the starting point, and then perhaps a final version. At least then we can offer advice to someone on their photography as well as their ability to finish a photograph. I think both are necessary.

Max

rbranan wrote: .... I say photoshop those puppies. never on the EXIF-- images stand on their own. who looks at EXIF stuff anyway??

I look at the EXIF. I think a lot of people can learn about exposure from it, especially the less experienced sports shooters among us. And I also look at what kind of camera and lens was used to learn about what gear is most appropriate for differing situations.

I am split on the issue of pp. An image that has not been processed will allow feedback about what could have been done better with the camera and while in the field. However, a processed image with some info about what has been done to it can be very helpful to those of us who aren't photoshop gurus yet. I guess my middle-of-the-road stance would be that whenever anything more than the most basic adjustments are done to an image the poster should describe the pp so we can perhaps critique, ask questions about, and learn from that part of it too.


Thanks Paul.

Paul,
Your post is another example of the class that is found here at FM. The information that is gained here is from many hours of shooting, tweeking and learning from our failures. The newbies that you speak of have an incredible advantage to be able to pull from such a talented pool.
You and the Sabrons, Isabellas and Sewells (to name a few) unselfishly share your advise that took many years to master.
This "Newbie" greatly appreciates your incredible support.

Michael

well it seems exif wins. my concern is that there is very common set of questions some folks post--what lens is that? what camera? i need to see the EXIF? these come across as more pixel peeping or equipment worship rather than learning about how to compose a great shot. the majority of issues you see with posted pictures is a lack of understanding of what a great photo is. people recognize a great shot when they see one, such as what Mark R delivers, but few understand how he 'saw' the image and what he went through to get it. a shutter speed or aperture is so far down the list.

i was next to two well know photographers the other day at a game and they were talking about how they could care about all the features camera manufactures include in the bodies-said they never read a manual and had no ideal what all the switches and buttons did. i know they weren't lying--one of them asked me how to move his focus point from the bottom right hand side of his view finder during an NFL game. this is a guy who has had numerous one man gallery shows and shot some of the most iconic images. these guys NEVER look at EXIF info--not sure they even know how too.

however, if it helps some people fine. but keep in mind that it is a VERY small part of what is required for a great shot. just don't ask a top pro what his camera settings are next time you are doing a PGA or MLB event.

Max has a point but I got the impression that Paul was talking more about the posters who just don't put in the effort to process their photos for presentation rather than those looking for help. (I'm not trying to put words in Paul's mouth here)

The other non processors seem to be saying.......look what I did without photo shop! As if a non processed photo is somehow superior. Either way when I see the no PP disclaimer I'm thinking, well........you really should have!

But in my efforts to become more Isabellian I politely pass them by


Marty

Paull,

This is very organized, thanks for putting this together! This should be sticky right behind Carl's post.

Brent

So my question is, who will design the Isabellian award which will be given out once a year here during the Isabellian ceremony?

Just thought of another addition to this thread.

Have you selected and posted what you believe to be the best images from the outing or a sequence?

IMO, if I read a new thread it says something along the lines of, "I didn't really look through everything; I just picked some random images to post here" I close the thread and don't look back, especially if the person making the post is asking for C&C. I figure if the person making such a thread isn't going to take the time to show what they believe to be their best, then why should I bother to take the time to offer C&C. After all, how can that C&C have any value if we don't even know what we're commenting on is the best the particular photographer can get. Part of growing and learning as a photographer is being able to know how to cull through a large batch of images and pick the very best.

Same goes for those threads with an entire sequence of, say, a play at second base, or a touchdown catch. I don't really want to see the entire sequence; anyone with a 1-series camera can capture such a sequence. What I want to see if I'm going to take the time to offer C&C is what the photographer thinks is the best image from a sequence. Again, being able to select that best image(s) is part of getting better as a photographer.

Thanks, Paul, for this post. Let me add what I expect a C&C request here to consist of (and you'll notice a lot of repeats by what people said here):

1) Your 6 or so best shots of the event, and a single event or at least a single sport. If it's mixed, then you're really asking for a portfolio review, which is different.

2) The shots should be numbered, and easy to understand which numbers go with which shots. I dislike when I see shot number shot.... which number does that shot go with? Add some white-space (or is it gray-space on this forum?) between them, with the number easily located. I prefer the number first, some do it last. Be consistent, and space the shots out so I can tell.

3) If there's a hint of an equipment/gear question in the C&C request, please leave the EXIF intact. Actually, I prefer to have the EXIF in there all the time, but as long as it's not a "do these shots look soft to you?" type question where knowing the shooting conditions and equipment is critical to answering the question, the EXIF isn't necessary.

4) Keep them to 600-800 on the long end, please. Not all of us have 30" Apple Cinema displays.

5) If you're asking for C&C for a poster, magazine cover, or some other "art" based on an action shot(s), please, PLEASE be willing to accept constructive criticism. When you create something like that, you get an emotional bond to it which makes it sometimes difficult to accept that there is room for improvement.

6) And most importantly, please FOLLOW UP on our critiques. I really, REALLY dislike it when I offer some comments, and then I never hear from that person again. A simple "Thank you for your opinions" will suffice at times, but I'd, personally, prefer something a bit less condescending.

John

+1 Thanks for posting this....excellent read and useful information for all. Well done.

BobnJake wrote:
Thanks Paul for taking the time to put this all down. It is very much appreciated.

I second, along with many others, all the nice words regarding Russ. He has taken the time, a lot more than once, to help me out.

Have a good holiday weekend
Bob

Where in the hell have you been?

Paul, I've been trying to get ready for retirement, the only problem is every time I do one of those retirement studies, it comes back saying " I have to keep working", but I'm trying

Thanks again for your original post.

Nice post Paul. I will give you kudos as well as my 2 cents. I agree with all of your line items except #2. Number 2 is different from the other items in that it deals with the quality of a photo in an artistic way as opposed to net-etiquette or other mechanical board issues.

Personally, tilted horizons drive me CRAZY, however, there are photographers of all different skill levels and I can take a moment to suggest an edit or not.

This leads me to a suggestion myself. Please sign your posts. Paul, you are very well intentioned by writing this list, but I only can address you because I saw the post after yours mentioned you by name. Adding a signature is a courtesy that can either be extended or not. Some would appreciate it, some would not. I do, and I know a lot of other people do. Putting your signature to your words tells me that you value your thoughts. I feel strongly enough about this issue that it made the #1 spot in a thread I started four years ago. You will find the #1 spot on the countdown in position #0 as I have issues with enumerated lists. That post was my Isabellian post, if I am to understand you, that being a post with many replies. This post did not earn that distinction because it was written in the manor of Russ, and I will let that go at that…
If you care to read that post, you can visit it
HERE


Paul
www.melor.com

clarence3 wrote:
Good stuff, Paul.

I'd add that EXIF should be included if possible, too. And a general description of what equipment and settings were used.


Yes! I review almost EVERY post to get tips, being able to view the exif data would allow me to not have to ask so many questions

4) Keep them to 600-800 on the long end, please. Not all of us have 30" Apple Cinema displays.



OTOH, I really think 600 is terribly small these days, at least if that is the width and it is a wide aspect shot. It makes it hard to see things well and get a nice impression. It reduces the impact.

On some other sites these days they warn to never post shots that small.

On many monitors something that small just gets lost, that may end up covering less than a NINTH of the surface area of many people's screens.....

maybe 5 years ago....

Granted those monster 2000x1500 posts and such are a bit tricky and tedious for anyone but the very largest of display resolutions even these days, so I'm not suggesting that either.

Why isn't this stickied in the c&c forum?
And while I'm at it, it should be stickied in all forums where pics are posted for c&c.

BTW...
well done, all very valid points.

"3) Have I given too much information?"

This should be question number one. I don't know how many submissions I've seen preceeded by lengthy explainations of the circumstances that make the phot significant but the first rule of photography (at least photography for this board) should be;

1. Every pictures should tell the story.

I think this thread deserves to be bumped up again.

John

As a newbie, first - let me thank everyone who has posted and offered comments to my photos and learning. I appreciate the time - as it does take a significant amount of time to post a comment. Second, the time (and small amount of $) I have spent on this forum far exceeds any photography class I could have taken locally. The value of experience and knowledge here is immeasureable. I feel fortunate.

Paul - thanks for sharing I am guilty, guilty, guilty, but I am trying to improve. Before a shoot, I come here and reread all of the comments and suggestions in order to demonstrate growth and applied learning. Alot to keep in my aging semi-hysterical head.

I suggest this post be placed in the Resource Corner for continual referencing.

Best to All,

Wendell

Thanks for the post Paul. I know this would have been helpful for me when starting to post, and still is as I continue to learn. You and several other members here have given me great feedback and helped me progress along the way. I am still new enough to this that every little tip helps. I am sure that I am not alone in saying that I read many posts before getting up the nerve to post anything for critique, and posting for C&C requires a new set of skills even beyond making the photo.

Specifically, how to size, number, and post the images here. I still haven't figured out how to number the images that I upload. Thanks to Scott for the suggestion about image size. Even though I knew how to do that, it never occured to me to downsize for viewing here until the suggestion was made.

Finally, as one of those who has recently started posting images for review, allow me to second the advice about not becoming defensive of your work. If you ask for criticism, be bold enough to accept it when it comes your way. Unlike some of the other forums, people in the sports corner are honest enough to tell you when your stuff doesn't work. I may not agree with thier feedback, but I did ask for it. Most give honest feedback without a condescending attitude, and I apreciate that. Thanks guys for helping me grow as a photographer!

Being a new poster I found this information very helpful. Thank you.

This should be a sticky, great list

I agree with max on the topic of pp, I know I learn more from realizing what I did wrong in camera that what I did wrong in photoshop

Well put, 4-8 is definitely the magic number. Also I think that it should also be included to make sure to post all the images in a single post. Don't post three posts with three images a piece, instead upload them to photobucket, imageshack or your own server and embed them all in the first post - this also allows you to number them as recommended by Paul.

skyvan wrote:
Well put, 4-8 is definitely the magic number. Also I think that it should also be included to make sure to post all the images in a single post. Don't post three posts with three images a piece, instead upload them to photobucket, imageshack or your own server and embed them all in the first post - this also allows you to number them as recommended by Paul.
The reason you see 4 photos per post and then another 4 in another post is because that is how Fred's upload service works with posts. You can only add 4 photos at a time. Some of us pay Fred for this service as a way to support the forums.

P Alesse wrote:

11) Have I demonstrated good Isabellian etiquette?
Russ Isabella might be the record holder for the most responses to his posts. Why? Because he is just a nice guy. He takes the time to respond to others and others have returned the courtesy. Never, I mean never, have I seen him be rude, nasty, condescending, or brief in any one of his responses. He's a better man than me.... In turn, he receives the same courtesy and respect. You get back what you give on these forums and #11 should really be #1 on the list. Play nice and in time, you'll get responses and respect.

plus 1 for Russ!