Hello friendly wedding forum. I would like to ask for some advice on what you would do in a particular situation as a pro wedding photographer. A few months ago, I attended a family wedding. I wasn't too impressed with the photographer they hired; at the reception, he spent his time between milestones drinking coffee and playing with his iPhone. Anywho. . .

It takes this guy 2 months to deliver the image files (the files on a CD are his final product) and my relatives noticed that the ENTIRETY of their family pictures taken prior to the ceremony were GONE! Also, much of the ceremony pictures were missing. They asked and he told a story about how the card was corrupted and he was researching how to recover them. He mentioned that he was thinking about sending the card to a specialist in California. He left it as a 50% chance he would get the files back.

He went on to explain that because this "technological failure" was beyond his control, he was not able to offer any refund. He instead offered to work for free at a family reunion in the future to recoup the family portraits.

The whole thing smells funny. I am a photographer (as a hobby) and I understand that you can download software yourself to recover files that go missing due to a corrupted card. Anyone who can work Google can figure this out in 15 minutes.

My question is this: how does this guy get off not offering any refund!!! What would you guys do in this situation?

PS he did have a contract, but it does not specifically mention a list of pictures that he would deliver. However, email correspondance did have a list of family shots that the customer wanted.

To answer your question - it's his business and he runs it as he sees fit.

What would I do in this situation? Well, I would already have an answer on the recovery of the images. It really is suspicious he didn't advise your relative of the card corruption prior to him delivering the images. It sounds like he was trying to slide one by and hoping you wouldn't notice. This is a very big reason I always download my cards the same day/night as the wedding. That way, if something was indeed out of my control and it ruined the images, I may be able to arrange a shoot the next morning with the people still around.

If he is a member of the PPA then he should have some insurance to help handle the cost of recovery. If not, then he is liable for that cost.

At least, your family should request a 50% refund in lieu of the shots not delivered. I definitely think there is something else going on though, not just a corrupted card.

Thanks fir the reply, Brian. The photographer said that he discovered the missing files days after the event. The rough part is that in the month after the event, when he knew the files were missing, he made sure to collect final payment AND collect an upcharge for "touch ups"!!

I'm fairly sure he screwed up and overwrote that card. He is 22 years old and I think he has some hard life and business lessons to learn on this one!

Start with reviewing the contract to see what language is in it regarding problems and problem resolution. Not offering a refund seems a non-starter but if (might be a big "if") he has an insurance company, they may not allow him to negotiate after they've been notified (or even before by policy requirements). But you should hear from them pretty quickly.

Tell him you are going to turn the matter over to your attorney if you don't hear immediately from his insurance carrier or him with a reasonable offer on what he is going to do. Initially that may mean a more professional approach to advising you of the problem (excuses not required) and the time frame in which he expects to find out if the images are recoverable. Be aware that there is a statute of limitations on initiating legal actions so while you may not need to start formal legal proceedings immediately, you can't let him drag this out either.

FWIW, requested shot lists, etc., are usually kind of a best effort sort of thing, everyone tries to get the desired shots but circumstances may work against a few of them. Problems there tend to come from not being able to get a few shots taken, not whole series of shots being missing in their entirety.

I can't say that I would offer a refund either. The details you provide are second hand so it's difficult to speculate either way.

If the story is close to as told, the photographer is negligent in my eyes. There are ways to recover files. At the same time where all the files on one or two large cards? .... I'm sure you do not know this. But it goes back to not putting all of your eggs in one basket. The photographer should provide some form of compensation. It can be monetary or work.

Nater wrote:
Thanks fir the reply, Brian. The photographer said that he discovered the missing files days after the event. The rough part is that in the month after the event, when he knew the files were missing, he made sure to collect final payment AND collect an upcharge for "touch ups"!!

It's an unusual wedding business practice to not be paid fully prior to the event (or at the latest on the day of).

So I'll guess he got paid after the wedding on delivery of the prints? So the couple knew there were missing files?

Or did the photographer ask for the full balance and even additional "touch-up" money prior to print delivery knowing that many important files were missing?

Any photographer can lose files, although many take precautions such as shooting with two bodies to minimize this possibility. But if the files were overwritten or dropped in river then that's inexcusable.

But I really dislike these third party complaint type of posts, thank God we're seeing fewer of them. If someone has an issue then they should post about it themselves (and ideally the photographer be given an opportunity to respond) so all have an equal voice.

I suppose that's what the courts do.

This is a big reason why I shoot with 2 GB cards only and download everything same night!

Are you asking what a professional would do or what this couple should do? First, taking 2 months to process RAW files isn't anything to be concerned about. Taking 2 months to tweak JPEGS also isn't anything to be concerned about. Taking 2 months to copy JPEGS to a disk is too long.

Second, many instances of corrupted files are a result of card reader error, many others are a result of user error, fewer are truly card failures out of the photographer's control. Without knowing exactly what happened, you don't know if he had any control over the errors. You also don't know if his claim of consulting recovery experts is true.

Third, you cannot use recovery software to recover files that are truly corrupted. You can recover files from cards that were reformatted, but not written over.

Fourth, if it were me, I would offer some kind of refund, probably partial, since family photos and ceremony photos are pretty important images to be missing. However, I assume the reception images and some of the ceremony images remain, if not family formals after the ceremony. However, he can do as he wants to, as it is his business.

Fifth, even if he can do as he wants to, the couple can also ask for a refund and file in small claims court, if they want. There are no set rules about this kind of thing, no matter what his contract says. I would advise the couple to ask for what they want and negotiate. Use small claims as a last resort.

There is a good chance of recovering files from cards that have been reformatted and completely rewritten over, even several times. If one recovery method doesn't work, several more should be tried. I would NEVER rely on it, but everything possible should be tried if there are missing images.

One more very, very good reason to shoot with dual card slots. It's one of the most responsible, professional things you can do. With photos as important as wedding images, if he's not taking every possible backup and redundancy opportunity available to him then his practices as a professional are suspect. And his results/deliverables obviously suffer from his shrotcut... Depending on the contract, I would have your friend hold out until he's answered the question about what can be/will be/should have been done with the corrupt card.

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

sort of off topic but for the life of me i don't know why these high end cameras don't take 2 CF's with the latter being in redundancy format. sorta like a raid 1 configuration.

By High-end, what do you mean? They're out there, you're just not spending enough to have one :-p

My next camera purchase will hopefully have one. It just makes too much sense not to backup on site somehow.

"sort of off topic but for the life of me i don't know why these high end cameras don't take 2 CF's with the latter being in redundancy format. sorta like a raid 1 configuration."

You should have taken that idea directly to Canon. Wouldn't surprise me if this was available in the somewhat near future. The technology is already there, it is just implementing it that hasn't been done. Something that would be fairly cheap for them to do and will cost the comsumer more $$.

Matt Khoury wrote:
sort of off topic but for the life of me i don't know why these high end cameras don't take 2 CF's with the latter being in redundancy format. sorta like a raid 1 configuration.

Dual cards are available on most pro bodies, and it is a must-have feature for my wedding photography. I simply wouldn't shoot a once-in-a-lifetime event without it... Its like driving with your seatbelt on: Once you've experienced that extra security and peace of mind, you can't go back.

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

There are many things that could have happened. He could have accidentally left the card in one of the cameras and then reformatted it and shot another session, or the card could have been lost. He could have been looking at the pictures while downloading and thought he moved the files into a folder and didn't (I actually did this once, but found the error before reformatting). I have had two cards to corrupt, but they always downloading and then error came after the download. No matter what happen, you can't replace the pictures from that day. This is one of the reasons we have smaller cards, also two sets of cards so we don't need to use them by the next wedding until I have gone through everything.

If I were in his position, I would offer at least half the monies back. Although, brides may have a long list of pictures they want, the family ones are usually the most important of the day. Yvette

oh boy... here we go again getting Chris up on his soapbox about dual card slots... I think there's about 14 threads about this in specific all of them Chris has weighed in on significantly ! thanks Chris for the reminder as to how you feel about it. HA.

you always know where Chris stands on such issues as....... well.... dual card slots for example !

we've come to love that about you Chris.

- travis

p.s. there's a good thread with info from a photographer on this board actually having this issue with lost images and asking for advice.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/718917

1D = 2 cards = instant back ups. This is why I believe that regardless of what other cameras might offer, the pro league bodies w/ dual card slots are the true wedding cameras.

There are various software, such as Data Rescue II on MAC OSX, that work wonderfully.

There are several programs available that recover lost data even after the card has been formatted and shot over. I carry laptop to back up and qc data throughout the day just in case something goes wrong.

to echo another response here if the card is truly unreadable it was probably an operator error but with out talking to the shooter and analyzing existing card data I'm only guessing

To answer your question: if something catastrophic happened and I was not able to deliver the product I was hired to do I would a: offer a partial refund and b: offered to incorporate any images the guests took in to the album.

Canon needs to make a dual card slot 5D.

On another note, the photog sounds like a total noob. 2 months to deliver CD means he got paid very little or he's just slacking off that much. It doesn't take me over 8-12 hours to finalize a CD with at LEAST decent proofs and selected pictures. I bet some take even less time, and others more. That's fine, but really, one weekend of work should do it.

We deliver albums in approx 2 months. Sometimes 3 depending on the season.

weeums wrote:
oh boy... here we go again getting Chris up on his soapbox about dual card slots... I think there's about 14 threads about this in specific all of them Chris has weighed in on significantly ! thanks Chris for the reminder as to how you feel about it. HA.

you always know where Chris stands on such issues as....... well.... dual card slots for example !

we've come to love that about you Chris.

- travis

p.s. there's a good thread with info from a photographer on this board actually having this issue with lost images and asking for advice.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/718917

What's wrong with pointing out the utility of dual card slots every time one of this or one of the previous 14 card failure/lost card threads has come up? Seriously, what about that bothers you, and why?

Perhaps if more professional photographers would get wise to the solution you wouldn't have to read any more of them...

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

Chris...

it cracks me up more than bother me.... I get a kick out of it actually. thanks for providing comic relief while securing and cementing us firmly in your hardcore believe about said issue.

it's still appreciated.

- travis

gee whiz - what did we ever do before digital and our multiple slots, huh?

i for one used to travel with a trailer - complete with dark room. uh, sure i got high on the dektol fumes, but it was worth it!

no professional goes on the job without redundant backup. ever. amen.

ksmahgrts wrote:

no professional goes on the job without redundant backup. ever. amen.

Careful, you may get laughed at for offering such sound advice.

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

ChrisDM wrote:
What's wrong with pointing out the utility of dual card slots every time one of this or one of the previous 14 card failure/lost card threads has come up? Seriously, what about that bothers you, and why?

Nothing wrong with it but all pros have their own backup solutions and most don't involve dual cards .. me I prefer shooting with two bodies and frequent chimping to keep an eye on what's ending up on my cards. That and totally anal security and backup after the cards are full.

Regardless of the method used I'm sure that real wedding pros don't lose their files under any conditions except acts of God .. and I'm equally sure less than 20% of them use dual card bodies. All pros are aware of dual card bodies and most choose not to go that route .. so as a security method it's not very popular.

More importantly 99% of these "I lost half the wedding files, what should I do?" threads are started by amateurs or uncle bob's who are not going to make the investment in dual card bodies anyways.

So if you think about it your sermon about dual cards largely falls on deaf ears. Not saying it's wrong, but it's just one (and not a very cost effective) method to keep data secure.

Mike Mahoney wrote:
So if you think about it your sermon about dual cards largely falls on deaf ears. Not saying it's wrong, but it's just one (and not a very cost effective) method to keep data secure.


Not very cost effective? 1D2 and 1D3 bodies are just as affordable as many of the "prosumer" and some of the consumer bodies many wedding photographers use, with many more features (namely better low light/AF performance) as an added bonus... What's not cost effective about that?

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com