Has anyone used the Macro-Elmarit on a Canon full-frame for flat reproduction?

I'm slightly disappointed with the Canon EF100mm Macro for critical repro work, as the sweet spot seems to be around f4 to 5.6, but the corners still struggle. Beyond f5.6 there's a rapid degradation in the centre and the corners simply don't catch up. It's a very fine lens if you're using it for centre sharpness and blurred backgrounds, but not when you want a critically sharp image from centre to corners for repro on a copy stand. Won't be selling it, but need an alternative for repro where speed and auto-everything don't matter.

From this review http://slrlensreview.com/content/view/445/133/ the Macro-Elmarit seems to offer exceptionally even resolution at f8 on full-frame. I wonder if anyone who's used this lens can confirm if that's the case and maybe post some pics.

Cheers!

I use one (1Ds2) as my 'normal' lens and love it. I don't do repro or copy work, but the lens I have is a very, very well worn former copy stand lens from a local camera shop, so someone thought it did the job - and wore most of the paint off the barrel in the process over the years doing so.

Sharp in center WO and the corners come up FAST after that. No notable CA, and very flare resistant - but those are more concerns for my type of shooting vs. yours. They're also great bargains. Check out the MTFs on Leica's website to see if it will do the job.

The Leica 100 APO is justifiably legendary and would do the job without question, but also costs 3x+ as much.

Another option is the excellent Oly 80/4 macro.

A

Ayler,

I use the Leica 100mm Apo Macro Elmarit for most of my flat artwork copy work, and the Leica 60mm Macro Elmarit for those occasions where the artwork is large and I cannot back up enough to use the 100mm lens. Both lenses have an excellent flat field at artwork reproduction ratios, sweet spot on both lenses are from F:5.6 to F:9.5. Although the 60mm is not classified as Apochromatic, you have to do some serious pixel peeping to see the difference bettween the 2 lenses.

I don't know what camera you are using for your artwork reproduction, but after using the Live View on my 1DsM3 for critical focus I don't know how I got along without it! The Live View is quite amazing for this type of work, and eliminates any error with Autofocus Calibrations ( Can't use that with the Leicas anyway ) or errors in the placement of the focusing screen when manualy focusing.

ACElkins wrote:
Ayler,

I use the Leica 100mm Apo Macro Elmarit for most of my flat artwork copy work, and the Leica 60mm Macro Elmarit for those occasions where the artwork is large and I cannot back up enough to use the 100mm lens. Both lenses have an excellent flat field at artwork reproduction ratios, sweet spot on both lenses are from F:5.6 to F:9.5. Although the 60mm is not classified as Apochromatic, you have to do some serious pixel peeping to see the difference bettween the 2 lenses.

I don't know what camera you are using for your artwork reproduction, but after using the Live View on my 1DsM3 for critical focus I don't know how I got along without it! The Live View is quite amazing for this type of work, and eliminates any error with Autofocus Calibrations ( Can't use that with the Leicas anyway ) or errors in the placement of the focusing screen when manualy focusing.


That's reassuring! I'll be using it with a 5D MKII and a 5D MKI. I did some overhead capture work of typescript from WW1 where there's text in the bottom layer that has been covered by a glued piece of paper with amendments, and where you want to see the text from both layers and the EF100mm Macro came up short in the corners, although centre all the way up to centre edges was excellent. Because the text sometimes runs all the way to the paper margins and corners, it's paramount that I get even sharpness or else I need to crop. I'll also be doing lantern slides and glass plate negs and need as much resolution as I can get from the 21MP of the MKII, evenness and a flat field (can't afford to crop because corners are soft!).

Thanks!

Not actually a problem with lantern slides, because they're square, but crucial with rectangular plate negs.

One item you might want to use with the 5DMk2 is a High Resolution monitor attached to the HDMI output of the camera when using Live View to focus. I tried this with the 1DsM3 and 5D using the available Video port but the results were low resolution and unsatisfactory. I asked if this can be done on the 5DMk2 on a different thread and it seems as the HDMI output of the newer camera works well with this setup. I did not like the "Tethered" mode using a computer, but having a 19" or 22" monitor to use live view to focus would be great!

A friend of mine also uses a "Dead View" system to focus the 5D, he focuses as accurately as he can with the viewfinder, then shoots 2 more shots rotating the focus ring very slightly over and under the original focus point. He then puts the 5D into Review mode and inspects each shot for critical focus with the zoom function. The zoom window stays constant when bringing up each image, so this works well.

To me this indicates not necessarly a problem with manual focusing the camera, but a problem with having the ground glass in perfect alignment with the sensor. I see the same problem when using a 4x5 and Betterlight scan back. On different 4x5 cameras the ground glass is slightly offset from the actual plane of focus of the Betterlight, on some cameras the ground glass is in the same plane. Shims should work to get the proper alignment, just a PITA to do the shim tests.

Works without any problems on my 5d
I might have to go look for images, my 5d is in the shop right now ):
It is a great lens even if you are not taking macro shots. I feel a good value for the money. I have the extension tube.

Would have gone for the 100 if I could afford it, but happy with the lens.


Merry Christmas

steve

ACElkins wrote:
One item you might want to use with the 5DMk2 is a High Resolution monitor attached to the HDMI output of the camera when using Live View to focus. .................


The two zoom levels of the Mark II make a monitor unnecessary. Although a separate monitor may increase productivity.
I'm completely comfortable focusing the 85LII at 1.2 in the almost dark.

As far as Leica macro, be sure to search past posts. There have been some major macro discussions.

Oh, another thought. Consider a tethered laptop/desktop instead of stand alone1080p monitor. My macbook is 1080p and workd fine for close focus. Maybe no need to buy an additional monitor is a computer is nearby.

edit: 1080p is 1920 x 1080. Zooming probably doesn't show more real information, but rather makes a tiny part of the 1920 x 1080. After a tethered shot is taken the full res file can be viewed on the monitor or laptop. It would be nice if zooming pre shot could actually access all pixels, but I doubt it works that way. 1920x1080 should be fine for even critical work. If purchasing a monitor, it will be something like 1920 x 1200 or higher resolution. The only reason to buy a more expensive monitor would be color management. The best NEC monitors can be profiled without being connected to a computer.

Not relevant to this discussion, but one shouldn't generalize live view performance to 5DII video. When video starts the monitor goes from 1080 to 480i (or p). The camera does not output 1080p while shooting video. 5DII video is great quality but assume nothing. It a 'hole nother world.

I use the Leica Macro Elmarit-R 60/2.8 on my 1Ds. It is a great product lens. I shoot a lot of interior and building products and it has no noticeable distortion. Also, great sharpness edge to edge. Many of the things I shoot have subtle brushed metal finishes and it renders those beautifully.

Acc. my experience the Leica 60 Macro is (on ff 12.8 or 21 MP) as sharp as the Leica 100 Apo-Macro at f5.6 to f9.5. The advantage of the 100 is the sharpness at f2.8-4 and the longer working distance.
My sample of the Canon 100 Macro is as sharp as the Leica on a 5D (at f8-11) but I did not yet use it on a 21 MP camera.
5D + L 60 @ f5.6
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/78060195
5D2 + L 60 @ f8
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/106678981
5D2 + L 100 @ f5.6
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/106678982
1Ds3 + L 100 @ f2.8
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/90041256

Um, doesn't one buy a macro to shoot macros? And don't macros usually require stopping down?

grasmuc wrote:
Acc. my experience the Leica 60 Macro is (on ff 12.8 or 21 MP) as sharp as the Leica 100 Apo-Macro at f5.6 to f9.5. The advantage of the 100 is the sharpness at f2.8-4 and the longer working distance.
My sample of the Canon 100 Macro is as sharp as the Leica on a 5D (at f8-11) but I did not yet use it on a 21 MP camera.
5D + L 60 @ f5.6
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/78060195
5D2 + L 60 @ f8
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/106678981
5D2 + L 100 @ f5.6
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/106678982
1Ds3 + L 100 @ f2.8
http://www.pbase.com/chrismuc/image/90041256



I can see from your samples that the 60mm Macro-Elmarit is indeed very even up to the corners when stopped down, at least at that focusing distance (but it shouldn't be worse in macro mode since it's a macro lens!). Perfect for me. Thanks for posting the links. By the way, my EF100mm Macro is quite good everywhere but the far corners, although I don't think it matches the Leica focused closed to infinity (it's not that the Canon is bad in any way, it's more that it's uneven). The only problem I have with it for repro is that the far corners never catch up and centre degrades rapidly around f8-11. The Leica seems to hold resolution better as you stop down beyond f5.6. If I was doing something that only required centre, say zone A, and the next circle around, zone B, I'd be happy with the Canon, but for what I'm about to do, it's not even enough across the whole frame.

Ayler,

These images are more likely similar to the items you will be photographing -

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111008/original

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111012/original

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111699/original

All 5D images of 1930's posters and I am pretty sure that these were shot prior to my purchase of the 100mm APO so it would be with the 60mm. These were shot JPEG and without the use of Live View for critical focus, so I am sure I could improve on these by slightly better focus and shooting RAW.

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/sizedoesmatter

This poster was shot with a 5D and 60mm Leica, also with a 20D and a Betterlight Scanback. Read the information and view all the images at Original size for comparison. I really need to get off my lazy rear end and re-shoot all the images with my 1DsM3 as 21mp really makes a big difference when shooting this type of subject over 12mp. Just don't get too depressed when you compare the full size cropped images of the Betterlight!

Forgot to mention that the posters measure around 20" x 30" and slightly larger, so that gives you an idea to judge type size. If you want to see some more poster images, the root directory is -

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/yuefenpai

dcmiller wrote:
Um, doesn't one buy a macro to shoot macros? And don't macros usually require stopping down?

Dcmiller,

A quality Macro or Enlarging lens is the best type of lens you can use to reproduce flat artwork. They are very well corrected for barrel and pincushion distortion (so straight lines stay straight) and are very flat field even at higher magnification ratios (so the corners and center come into focus at the same time).

Yes, stopping down does improve the image quality, I usually find that stopping down 2 stops from maximum for this type work is best, so with the F:2.8 Leica lenses F:5.6 or F:8 will give the best image.

ACElkins wrote:
Ayler,

These images are more likely similar to the items you will be photographing -

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111008/original

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111012/original

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/image/52111699/original

All 5D images of 1930's posters and I am pretty sure that these were shot prior to my purchase of the 100mm APO so it would be with the 60mm. These were shot JPEG and without the use of Live View for critical focus, so I am sure I could improve on these by slightly better focus and shooting RAW.

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/sizedoesmatter

This poster was shot with a 5D and 60mm Leica, also with a 20D and a Betterlight Scanback. Read the information and view all the images at Original size for comparison. I really need to get off my lazy rear end and re-shoot all the images with my 1DsM3 as 21mp really makes a big difference when shooting this type of subject over 12mp. Just don't get too depressed when you compare the full size cropped images of the Betterlight!

Forgot to mention that the posters measure around 20" x 30" and slightly larger, so that gives you an idea to judge type size. If you want to see some more poster images, the root directory is -

http://www.pbase.com/acelkins/yuefenpai





Actually, the 5D does surprisingly well compared to the downsized Betterlight. There's an obvious difference in terms of resolving power, but I was expecting it to be greater. I imagine the 1Ds or 5DMKII would match the Betterlight at the original 5D's 12MP native resolution, if not at 21MP. The other two things I noticed are how different the colours are in the Betterlight (much cooler and pink/magenta) and how good the Nikon large format macro is. I can also see that the Leica holds detail quite well in the corners, with maybe a 10% drop in resolving power, but this might also be related to the limits of the 5D's sensor muddling with the slight drop in performance of the Leica in the corners. The 5DMKII should be able to get more from the Leica, although any unevenness will also show more (if you know what I mean). Great! Thanks for that!

dcmiller wrote:
Um, doesn't one buy a macro to shoot macros?

Not necessarily. Product shooters like myself love' em as there is no or negligible linear distortion.
This is important when shooting things like cabinets, windows, tile, etc. I also use the Contax Makro-Sonnar 100/2.8N for the same reasons.