If you were looking for ultra soft light for location portraits (no product shots) would you buy a SB or an Octa? If both, which would be your larger/small one?

Presume you already own the Elinchrom big octa, and are after something smaller/complimentary for smaller rooms, and down to shots of individual kids.

Options I'm currently weighing up:

* Elinchrom Mid 135 (lipped version when it ships early next year). Grids apparently will be available, though perhaps only 40d. Largish size, still needs a bit of space to use.

* Plume Hex 140. A little smaller, yet should be softer light than above, with the added advantage of not needing as much headroom when flying it horizontally. Perhaps some of the advantages of both a SB and an Octa? I've read these are slower/harder to assemble. Only a staggeringly priced 40d grid available. How would the setup speed compare to the mid Elinchrom?

* Plume standard (non hex) 140 (1 x 1.4m). I'd use a quick release speed ring, so ultra fast here. Nice range of grids available. Still a fair size, but should be nice light. I presume this has a wide spread of light for a SB, seeing it's so shallow. A 60d grid should fix this. Not an octa (or hex)! I have little experience here, would I be missing out on something good?

* Medium (ie 36 x 48") Chimera with white interior. Smaller and deeper than all of above, quick to setup (QR speedring). Easier to use for ports of individual kids due to smaller size. Back into my known/comfort zone.

Other?

PS ShatterKiss, while I'm hoping you'll chip in, please don't ask me what texture, emotion, or palette of light I'm after! I'm looking for God's own light. You know, a narrow pool of perfect soft, wrapping-around light, beaming down directly from heaven.

In reality I know I can't have narrow pool, and wrap-around, at the same time, but because I don't know octa's, I don't know how bad the spread would be. Also, I've only used a 40d grid once, and my memory is it seemed farily hard. Could be wrong there.

All comments welcomed!

Watch this video by Frank Doorhof/Elinchrom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOfumv5xMQ&feature=related

Ha! Okay, with those restrictions... :P

My first choice would actually be a diffusion panel and frame, given your objectives. It's going to give you the most versatility, the ability to use it as a sun diffuser, large reflector or strobe diffuser. Due to the size, it's also going to allow you the softest light. But, that said, it's also going to be the least-manageable in outdoor locations - it'll require multiple c-stands to mount, multiple sandbags, probably one assistant just to get in place.

Second choice, personally, would be a large (5'+) octabox or a 60" Photek Softlighter as an alternate. Much more portable, will need less ballast, will still offer really soft light well balanced nicely against ambient daylight. It's not going to resemble daylight, but it will be soft.

Diffusion is a function of how many directions light comes from, and its varying intensities, relative to the objects creating the shadows. The same source can be made more or less diffuse by simply varying its distance.

Hi Chuck,

A long, comprehensive post from you as always! I've read your SB v Octa relative size math before, but I don't see how it's helpful as SB's are never measured by their diagonal. A 3'x3' SB is always larger than a 3' octa. How useful that extra size is, is debatable of course- seeing the corners of a SB are typically weak.

While I understand the need for fill in some senerios, I'm keen to use one larger light as much as possible. Not only is it simplier, but the results are usually much nicer for this type of shooting, IMHO. Tiny key and fills, are far more likely to leave horrible reflections in the subject's skin. Think of your subject's skin as a mirror. What do you want to reflect in it?


Shatterkiss,

Do you mean something like below, or just with bare reflector? Pic- Joe McNally, linked from his blog, using a large trigrip in front of a deep octa at a sponsored workhop. Subject is obscured. I presume the demo was part of a before/after comparison to help sell trigrips- which Joe is a huge fan of.




BTW I have a 60" Phototek Softliter now. It's OK, and I use it outdoors (cheap and chearful if it breaks), but it spews light everythere (like a typical brolly), and has a 1.5+ stop variation across it's face. The hot centre, and pole/strobe sticking out make it less ideal for close up work.

What I have no experience in, is how much spread to expect from an octa. Perhaps this is at the heart of my real question.

Seeing shots like this scare me a little- the result is nice, but a ton more light spread than I'm used to.


Credit: Scott Kelby- from his blog.


There must be reasons why an ever increasing number of people photographers seem to be switching to octas- seeing the obvious disadvantage. Perhaps I should get an octa/hex, and just grid it when I've got spill issues? Perhaps in another 10 years the trend will be back to SB's !!?

Maybe I'm never going to know how good/bad they are, till I stop talking and buy one?!

k7xd wrote:
Watch this video by Frank Doorhof/Elinchrom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOfumv5xMQ&feature=related


Great video!!! Notice how he violates many of the rules you tend to see on the net. Very nice one light and one light with reflector.

Click on More Frank Doorhof, and look at all 27 of his videos. Lots of good info.

BTW I prefer the Profoto 7 Foot Giant Reflector http://www.profoto.com/products/lightshapingtools/giant-reflectors/7-foot-giant-reflector over the Big Octa because it is a crisper focasable light. YMMD

Like Simon, I like a large panel for really soft light. A 6x6 foot, 8x8 foot or 12x12 foot. http://www.sunbounce-usa.com/sun_scrim.html or http://www.msegrip.com/overheadsbutterflyshomepage.html

I think you are assuming the advice is based on the hot shoe modifiers I use and frequently mention. FYI - my standard set-up for solo portraits on a dark background with studio lights is a 24 x 32 SB with a 20" circle mask to create that exact vignetted pool of light effect you seem to want. Then by adjusting the neutral fill I can dial in the perceptual softness.

Also, specular reflections off skin or any surface are mostly a function of the surface characteristics, i.e. how oily the skin is. Eliminate the oily skin with Clean&Clear blots and the problem is eliminated.

The advantage of huge modifiers vs. smaller ones is primarily in wider crops were they have the ability to illuminate the wide full length shot evenly when used as close to out-of-frame as the crop allows to provide rapid inverse-square fall off. But just as a sledgehammer isn't the best tool for hanging a picture on the wall a huge modifier isn't the best choice if you want to control where the light doesn't go.

While some seem to think that using one light is a purer form of lighting I've observed that even God uses two -- the sun and sky for fill. Neutral fill is about as close to that as possible with artificial sources. Regarding ease of use, I don't see how the one light approach is simpler if you need to hire a guy to hold a reflector

Point taken Chuck. I had presumed you meant tiny light sources.

Re-reading my posts- they are long and torturous. If it hadn't been 2.00am, I might have simply asked:

1) How much does light spread does an octa typically create, relative to a similar sized brolly?

2) Who has switched to octas for portraits, and if so, what hooked you?

Thanks.

PS C.D.Embrey, Agreed, I'm also a huge fan of overheads outdoors, but most people don't have that sort of space in their lounge rooms. I find the lack of depth, (not just height) my main enemy indoors. This is where a deep or lightly grided SB comes into it's own.

The choice between umbrella vs Octobox would typically be made more on the basis of characteristics within the cone of light produced and control of spill / flare not the spread per size factor.

Umbrellas, by virtue of how they are flatter near the shaft and the light source is at the shaft, have a characteristic hotter more parallel zone in the middle (i.e. brighter with with slightly less diffuse shadows created). That two-in-one effect can be used to create a variety of effects depending how the light is aimed (i.e. feathered). They spill more light than a SB, which is typically why when there is a choice a SB would be use over an umbrella: to eliminate stray light creating contrast robbing lens flare.

A SB of any shape is typically designed to make the light as uniform as possible within the laws of physics over the front surface. How much the light of a given diameter Octabox will spread will be a function of how deep and parabolic-shaped it is.

shoebox9 wrote:
1) How much does light spread does an octa typically create, relative to a similar sized brolly?

These aren't the most precise examples, but it might be easier to just show rather than describe. I try to take "behind the scenes" photos at a lot of shoots so that I have a record of the lighting setup, but it also helps to illustrate relative positioning and the effects of modifiers. You should be able to see the relative spread and falloff of the lights in each shot.

Here's a 5' octa (silver interior, double-diffused). You can also see what I mean when I say "diffusion panel" at the left side of the cyc - in this case it has a silver cover on it, but it could just as easily be silk.

ShatterKiss, thanks for your substantial input.

The shocker above for me, is the medium SB. My current SB's (barring a strip) are deep video boxes, that I've bought to multitask. Seeing a lipped SB throw around that much light, isn't what I would have expected. Now I understand why some people say they virtually always use SB's with grids.

Next question: Is there much/any difference between a similar sized SB and Octa, if both have the same degree of gridding? I presume the maths says "no".

If not, why not just buy octa's and grids, for the best of both worlds? Yet SB's still sell... Perhaps it's simply choosing between a circle or a rectangle shaped pool of gridded light, and people are rectangular..?

This is a crazy conversation. Of course there is a difference.

It's the same as selecting the right nozzle for a spray gun or a brush size and shape in Photoshop.
Can you approximate one tool for another? In many ways yes, but clearly the SB (rectangular or square) offers greater edge control than the octa.

The SB's inherently conform to the photographic FOV more precisely and are usually the most effective tool to use when the greatest modifier size and coverage is desired but extraneous light is not. Having said that though, it is often easier to build octa with greater surface area that can still be self supporting than a square/recta because of the difference in the number of supporting rods.

Octas also attenuate light more gradually when feathering. This can be a plus or a minus, but is certainly a clear difference between these shapes.
(While feathering is a fundamental lighting technique, I'm really beginning to wonder if it is becoming anachronism. )

Some octas can be configured more parabolic to focus light, say like a Para, a briese or even the Deep Octa.

Octas generally offer a more omnidirectional light quality, which can be desirable but that also requires more control.

Gridding is not always the best solution for control as that will substantially affect that omnidirectional quality of the light. Flags and gobos are other tools besides grids that can be effectively employed to manage spill (as Joe is doing with the reflector above) with either SB or octa, but the octa will often benefit more dramatically by introduction of an edge that did not already exist. I often use my Deep Octa with the internal diffuser to make use of the outer edge of the box as a "lens shade" for a nice soft light in a lower key situation..

The DO is a very unique modifier and will probably produce the closest look you are describing right out of the box.
But so far, I've found that the best solutions don't usually come prepackaged in a box.

But if you can't tell the difference between modifiers of different, shapes, depths and sizes (especially after owning a EL Octa) then it probably isn't going to matter which one you get.

You may not always have the perfect club for every situation out on the links, but even if you could you'd still need to know what they do and how to use them if it's going to make any difference.
Like we say on the golf course.... just pick a club and hit the dang ball or we're playing through.

Fore.

Hi Carmen,

I hoped you arrive on the scene.

The background-
The conversation is crazy becuase I have no studio training. I went from a background in press, to opening a wedding/portrait studio where almost everything is shot on location.

To hide my lack of studio training, for years now I've been using tungsten whenever I need to photograph newborns etc, in the studio. With 5x variable power 1000w lights, a heap of deep SB's, and true WYSIWYG, it's easy to fuge your way along. TOO EASY! Now that I'm want to move lighting to location with a Ranger (and next a Quanta), I need to actually know what I'm doing.

So if a Deep Octa, and a big Octa are a given, what fits inbetween? What should I add to the kit?

My bread and butter is hiding wrinkles, not fashion, and I'm keen to buy stuff that will last, but not so much that I need a van to carry it all. I only use an assistant around half the time, so I'd rather not be dependent on one.

What else would be on your shopping list? (open question)

* Perhaps a couple of Larson brollys to use as reflectors? (For those who don't know, Larson sell 42x72" and 72x72 "brollys" that open completely flat, with a hinged shaft that can be used as it's own tripod-like floor stand).

* A Matthew's 24x36" Road Rags set?

* A Plume 140 or white Medium Chimera?

I'll post some examples shortly, of what I'm currently doing well and badly. If you were in my shoes- but knowing what you know now, what would you buy?

Shoe,

I don't recommend stuff to people that don't know how or why they are going to use it.

You have two thoroughbred modifiers that we all know can produce awesome results in the right hands. The good thing is they are very different modifiers with different strengths and capabilities. But the one thing that I see you clearly lack is the edge control of a SB.

But before I ran out and bought another modifier, I would use what I had until I knew precisely which tool would make my life easier.

With what you have I would be inclined to rule out the Midi Octa though. Great box but your Octa has got you covered in spades there.

Good luck.

PS.
While your at it, get some foam core for gobos and book ends. Cheaper than Tri-Grips and they get job done.

Carmen Miranda wrote:

You may not always have the perfect club for every situation out on the links, but even if you could you'd still need to know what they do and how to use them if it's going to make any difference.


Like we say on the golf course.... just pick a club and hit the dang ball or we're playing through.

Fore.


Amen to that.... I always try to help the group in front spending 20 min. searching for a lost ball by hitting one of my spares about 10 ft in front of them where they can easily find it. Curiously, most don't seem to appreciate my kindness

I've decided on a Plume 140 (non hex) to fill the gap.

* fast setup (with QR ring)

* Chimera 7.3" QR ring is just large enough to mount 2x 550/580 speedlites, + I could use both internal wafers together for more even speedlite diffusion). My primary use would be with a Ranger, but extra compatibility and redundancy is always nice.

* 60d grid available I plan to cut the center 1/3 out of one, for fun one day.

* Nice tall ratio with hardenable straight edge, or standard soft edge for feathering. Thanks Carmen (and ShatterKiss) for helping me see I was neglecting this.

When possible, I'm trying to buy tools that each have two jobs. For example, while I've had a set of Larson Reflectersols (flat opening brollys- used as free standing or easy to mount reflectors) on my mental wish list for 18m now- I may buy Sunbounce stuff first, and see how practical it is to use indoors. (If anyone does this, please share your experiences.)

Cheers.

shoebox9 wrote:I've had a set of Larson Reflectersols (flat opening brollys- used as free standing or easy to mount reflectors) on my mental wish list for 18m now- I may buy Sunbounce stuff first, and see how practical it is to use indoors. (If anyone does this, please share your experiences.)

I've worked with Larson's stuff back in the early 80's. The Reflectasol hasn't changed much since then either. It's great to see that George is still going strong.

Currently I am using the Westcott Scrim Jim system and a Lastolite SkyLite, which seems similar to the Sunbounce. Each has unique advantages in and out of the studio. But in the studio, I still prefer to use foam core sheets whenever I can. They are cheaper, bigger, simpler and more versatile IMO. In fact, V-flats should be standard issue with every El-Octa.

Good luck.

Great, a Scrim Jim user!

A question I've had for ages is: does the 96" version share components with the two smaller versions, or is it only the 72" that almost gives you two sizes in one?

The reason I'm resistant to your foam core suggestion (we have a mounting press and keep 40"x 60" sheets of foam core on hand), is just back to the van/car thing. I'm keen to be able to pack my location studio in the trunk of a sedan. Maybe once I get some decent sized bags and don't have everything floating around loose in the trunk, this would be more practical. Size would still be limited though.

OK, here's an example of losing money, because I didn't have the right gear to get the job done properly. The family were after an image outside their house, but because the front was in shade, the more light I put into them, the darker the house got (400-450w/s 60" Softliter, power cord running back to house, pre-ranger).

I needed an overhead to reduce the sun, but only have a 4'x 6' collapsable flimsey, which would have been too small. I ended up moving the family to better light, and they bought an 11"x 14" of it, instead of a 16"x 22" & prints for all the rels. Hear that "flap, flap, flap"? It's the sound of money flying away. Here is an initial test shot, before moving on.




Here's an available light image shot in the same area, but here the kids are in shade or facing away from the sun.




Inside I got lucky with a window. It's light was OK, but I had little control over it positionally (ie light source is almost behind subject, in the second image below). For me, investing in a battery pack and modifers is all about getting back that control.

The family ended up buying a nice series of the kids, some gifts, and a feature wall print of the kids running, but if I'd had the tools to do a decent job of the family together in front of the house, we'd all have walked away from the purchasing session happier.





Now a shoot I did better in. This is a hair stylist, shot for a story in a local mag. My brief was to create blank space above the subject for text overlay. 24"x32" deep video box for a puchy look, with 1000w tungsten at 3/4 power.

I used the tungsten so the window would go blue, and as a bonus it was easy to see where the edge was feathering. There's a reflector on the LHS (easy to position, due to light I could see), and a second tungsten bounced in the far room, to keep the wall/floor a warm tone.



SUMMARY- careful equipment purchases will = better images = more $$$ (once I learn to master them). All help greatly appreciated as I try and understand what different stuff will do.

Simon

What type of boom do you use to hold your Mola

Best
Jay

Shoebox

Nice pix

Best
Jay

Jay Connor wrote:
Simon

What type of boom do you use to hold your Mola

Best
Jay

I don't use one, actually: in the studio I'll usually just use a c-stand and grip arm for the Mola or even the big octa. The only time I use a traditional boom is when I need to really extend something out or boom it overhead, in which case I use an Avenger A600. I'll also take that out on location if I'm traveling by road and packing the whole grip bag.

Thanks Simon

Jay

re:using & packing foamcore for reflectors.

I got a canvas-like material art protfilio bag that fits the 24X30 sheets of foamcore really well. I can put 6-8 sheets of foamcore in the bag and it is easy to transport. The local art supply house had some that were scuffed a little that they were selling for less than $10. It has a piece of masonite in the back to stiffen up the bag, has a few handles to help carry it around. Actually per reflector it takes up less room than my folding disk reflectors.