hubsand wrote:

The old CZ21 is the resolution king, by far, all over the frame, at all apertures.

Exactly. And here we have MTFs that show the new one convincingly beating the old one. It is so obvious to me. Can you see it too, Mark?

For instance:

Zone A wide open on the new one will kill Zone A wide open on the old.

Zone C at 5.6 on the new one is considerably higher resolution than Zone C at f5.6 on the old one!

Anyone who has owned and shot a lot with the old version must find this as remarkable as I do. Some recent lenses have come close (sort of) to the original CZ21, but this one is better, and by a very significant margin, and where it really matters.

thrice wrote:
I'd say they will be optically very similar, quite an accomplishment given ROHS. If you don't want distortion the Leica 19/2.8 ROM is the way to go (with modification). The Leica beats the distagon from 5.6 smaller in all but extreme corners (at least going by MTF's, I don't have either... yet).


But you can't go by the MTF's. They were created by different companies using different methodologies. In order to accurately compare MTF's, they have to be consistently created using the same procedures, methodology and equipment. If you just compared lens based on the manufacturers' own MTF charts, you would probably never by a Zeiss lens becuase on the surface the manufacturer produced charts just don't look as good. I would be however, an apples or oranges comparison becuase the charts were produced in very different ways.

You can, however, compare Zeiss' MTF's for the old Contax 21mm Distagon with the Zeiss MTF's for the new ZF/ZE 21mm Distagon. And in doing so, as described immediately above, you will see that there are noticeable improvements ove rthe old Contax design.

mark1958 wrote:
Well i am selling my Nikon 14-24 with the 16-9.net EOS adapter... it is in Buy and Sell forum

Mark, were you not impressed with the performance, or you just don't like how it works in your system?

EB-1 wrote:
brianc1959 wrote:
It appears to me that the new lens is slightly better than the original Contax version, both in MTF and distortion.

Results are pretty similar as if they were aiming for the same design goal. Distortion is disappointing.

EBH


Distortion in the new design really does look better, judging from the curve. You want the curve to bend back in toward the edge of the field because that improves straight line rendition. The problem with the old design is that the curve bent almost all the way back to zero, which is really an amateurish design mistake. The new lens is better in this regard.

If you're thinking the distortion curve should be zero at all field points: forget it, at least for the near term. That would require large diameter aspherics near the front end, and the cost would probably go well beyond $4k.

brianc1959 wrote:


Bear in mind that actual tests have shown the old 21/2.8 to be better than the 14-24.


I do remember that. And that the 14-24 is best at the wide end. I guess I find a wide zoom so useful for landscape that I would have a hard time using a prime. I would be constantly trying to zoom with the Zeiss.

Well I got told I'm a noob to understanding MTF's, I sorta get them, just not the subtleties.

Guess I should save my pennies and stop buying Leicas the 5D-II is calling my name though, I really want that higher-res screen on the back and the high iso performance.

So many toys, so little money haha

dcmiller wrote:
mark1958 wrote:
Well i am selling my Nikon 14-24 with the 16-9.net EOS adapter... it is in Buy and Sell forum

Mark, were you not impressed with the performance, or you just don't like how it works in your system?


I can only imagine that he has made the decision based on how obvious it is that the new CZ21 will simply stomp the 14-24.

cogitech wrote:
hubsand wrote:

The old CZ21 is the resolution king, by far, all over the frame, at all apertures.

Exactly. And here we have MTFs that show the new one convincingly beating the old one. It is so obvious to me. Can you see it too, Mark?

For instance:

Zone A wide open on the new one will kill Zone A wide open on the old.

Zone C at 5.6 on the new one is considerably higher resolution than Zone C at f5.6 on the old one!

Anyone who has owned and shot a lot with the old version must find this as remarkable as I do. Some recent lenses have come close (sort of) to the original CZ21, but this one is better, and by a very significant margin, and where it really matters.

I agree but to me the most noticeable improvement seems to be in Zone B at f/5.6. The old version has a bit of a Zone B dip something like the 17-35 Contax N shows. They seem to have brought that dip up to a flat line. The Zone A and C increase may be more important, but I see improvements in all three of the zones that Mark talks about.

Take care,

Steve

It's nice to see some improvement in the MTFs, though I would say they are more on the order of 0-15%, so not GIGANTIC improvements as seem to be implied...

overlay the curves - in some places there's nearly no change vs. the older one. Seems more pronounced the further out from center you get.

-Ed

This lens is going to blow all others out of the water - I'm going to sell all my other lenses to get my hands on one. From those MTF's it 's not just going to blow every other wide out of the water but when it's done that it's going to rip them apart and eat them for breakfast. This lens is going to be so awsome that it's going to produce more resolution than any sensor out there can handle and beyond what can actualy be measured by MTF analysis - so sharp infact that it could well damage some sensors esp those below 21mp. With this much resolution to play with it's going to produce better results to just crop into the image instead of using any narrower lenses. I'm going to become a new 21mm fanboy and create a website with a forum totaly dedicated to this lens. I'm about to smash my 5D up with a big hammer as I know it won't be able to handle this totaly awsome lens and I've also deleted my last 3 years worth of work as the image quality is now obsolete and I'm saving myself the pain of viewing them and their inferior quality again.

shirozina wrote:
This lens is going to blow all others out of the water - I'm going to sell all my other lenses to get my hands on one. From those MTF's it 's not just going to blow every other wide out of the water but when it's done that it's going to rip them apart and eat them for breakfast. This lens is going to be so awsome that it's going to produce more resolution than any sensor out there can handle and beyond what can actualy be measured by MTF analysis - so sharp infact that it could well damage some sensors esp those below 21mp. With this much resolution to play with it's going to produce better results to just crop into the image instead of using any narrower lenses. I'm going to become a new 21mm fanboy and create a website with a forum totaly dedicated to this lens. I'm about to smash my 5D up with a big hammer as I know it won't be able to handle this totaly awsome lens and I've also deleted my last 3 years worth of work as the image quality is now obsolete and I'm saving myself the pain of viewing them and their inferior quality again.

Wow...that's some strong words....
I was about to buy Contax N17-35/2.8, and you kinda put a break on it.
I have a deal where I can get the Contax N17-35/2.8 for about $1050.
Should I wait fot the new Contax 21/2.8?

@ shirozina

shirozina, it sounds like this lens is the lens-embodiment of http://www.realultimatepower.net/ ;-)

shirozina wrote:
This lens is going to blow all others out of the water - I'm going to sell all my other lenses to get my hands on one. From those MTF's it 's not just going to blow every other wide out of the water but when it's done that it's going to rip them apart and eat them for breakfast. This lens is going to be so awsome that it's going to produce more resolution than any sensor out there can handle and beyond what can actualy be measured by MTF analysis - so sharp infact that it could well damage some sensors esp those below 21mp. With this much resolution to play with it's going to produce better results to just crop into the image instead of using any narrower lenses. I'm going to become a new 21mm fanboy and create a website with a forum totaly dedicated to this lens. I'm about to smash my 5D up with a big hammer as I know it won't be able to handle this totaly awsome lens and I've also deleted my last 3 years worth of work as the image quality is now obsolete and I'm saving myself the pain of viewing them and their inferior quality again.

This is great news. If the performance of the new ZE lens even matches the old Contax version we are already way ahead. If it exceeds it in performance, then it is theoretically worth a lot more than what the old 21 was selling for at it's peak about a year ago .... because now you are getting a brand new lens with a dedicated Canon mount with focus confirmation and auto exposure for about half the price of the old Contax version! I think I might pass on the Canon 24L Mk II.

Lotusm50 wrote:

You can, however, compare Zeiss' MTF's for the old Contax 21mm Distagon with the Zeiss MTF's for the new ZF/ZE 21mm Distagon. And in doing so, as described immediately above, you will see that there are noticeable improvements ove rthe old Contax design.

Careful when you use this lens with the 5D Mk II. You may get an orgasmic reaction.

shirozina wrote:
This lens is going to blow all others out of the water - I'm going to sell all my other lenses to get my hands on one. From those MTF's it 's not just going to blow every other wide out of the water but when it's done that it's going to rip them apart and eat them for breakfast. This lens is going to be so awsome that it's going to produce more resolution than any sensor out there can handle and beyond what can actualy be measured by MTF analysis - so sharp infact that it could well damage some sensors esp those below 21mp. With this much resolution to play with it's going to produce better results to just crop into the image instead of using any narrower lenses. I'm going to become a new 21mm fanboy and create a website with a forum totaly dedicated to this lens. I'm about to smash my 5D up with a big hammer as I know it won't be able to handle this totaly awsome lens and I've also deleted my last 3 years worth of work as the image quality is now obsolete and I'm saving myself the pain of viewing them and their inferior quality again.

My girlfriend and I were thinking of getting married in a camerashop on the day of its release, Robert Whites looks like a great venue and they are UK distributors.

I have also written to Gordon Brown to ask him whether he will consider making the 21st December a bank holiday.

Let's not forget about flare resistance, hopefully the new one is much improved. Another point is that the new version will have a much better hood.
Dan
www.danbrownphotography.com

Brianc1959,

Thanks for the post and giving us some of your extensive lens design and MTF knowledge.

Can you compare the distortion of the new 21ZF with the 14-24 Nikon and the 18ZF?
From test shots with the 18, it seemed to have alot more distortion than the 14-24 at 18.

Also, can you suggest a couple of good books on lens design and MTF graph reading?

Thanks!
Still saving up for the Coastal Optics 60mm lens. Hate to see what Shirozina might do if he got his hands on one of those!

wayne seltzer wrote:
Brianc1959,

Thanks for the post and giving us some of your extensive lens design and MTF knowledge.

Can you compare the distortion of the new 21ZF with the 14-24 Nikon and the 18ZF?
From test shots with the 18, it seemed to have alot more distortion than the 14-24 at 18.

Also, can you suggest a couple of good books on lens design and MTF graph reading?

Thanks!
Still saving up for the Coastal Optics 60mm lens. Hate to see what Shirozina might do if he got his hands on one of those!
Wouldn't it be nice if Coastal Optics would make a wide angle on par with their 60mm?
Dan
www.danbrownphotography.com