Allow me to toss my 2 cents into the 5D MKII fray. I just watched the Laforet video and I was impressed (although that doesn't take much). Vincent did a wonderful job showing that the new 5D can do, even when he did it on short notice. After watching the movie I have no doubts that Canon has produced another excellent camera. Will the 5D MKII have flaws? Sure, just like every camera as strength and weakness. Over the last two years since returning to photography (after a 10 year hiatus) I have found the greatest item that needs improvement is the photographer. My current 5D has improved each year, because I put in the effort to improve my skill. In a 1974 Sierra Club book Ansel Adams produced about Landscape Photography; he made the comment that too many photographers spend their time talking about their cameras and not enough time really getting to know them. I think that is partly at the root of the 5D MKII backlash. Just my comments. Cheers, BLR

I have to add something to my previous post. When I said I was impressed by the video, it has little to do with the technicalities. Yep the shallow dof and HD were nice but 90% of what cought my eye was light, subject, composition. Same rules apply.

Not sure it was mentioned aready:
At the end of the clip (credits), while the moon gradually disappears from the FOV its remaining part gets brighter and brighter.
If this was not intended, that proves the exposition cannot be controlled/fixed (only automatic)...

This would be a problem.

cogitech wrote:
Aperture control is a make it or break it for me. I assume I will have full control of aperture with my manual glass, but to not have it with native EF mount lenses would be a kick in the nuts for almost everyone but me.

Etadam wrote:
At the end of the clip (credits), while the moon gradually disappears from the FOV its remaining part gets brighter and brighter.
If this was not intended, that proves the exposition cannot be controlled/fixed (only automatic)...

Laforet settled the question to my satisfaction on his blog. He was responding to a question from "JRW," who had the same concerns about exposure/aperture control in video mode that we do. Here is the quote, with the most relevant portions emphasized:

"JRW - you can shoot in program mode - camera decides both

you can shoot in Aperture priority - you set the Aperture and the camera chooses between 1/125th of a second or 1/60th of a second - and then it’s main control is the ISO

you can shoot in shutter priority mode- set the shutter speed ( I think only 1′/60th and 1/125th of a second would be option here) and the camera sets the aperture and ISO for you…

In the last two options - at any point you can override the meter - and EV correct the exposure - I believe two stops up or down… once you have a setting you like - you can press the “*” button and the exposure is locked in.

At any point - you can open or close down the camera by rotating the back dial - AS YOU SHOOT…

The point is: there is no manual exposure mode - so you can lock everything down… you CAN lock it down - with the “*” button however - it’s just not as direct and a bit more of a workaround.

You should know that I immediately set my AF to back button autofocus - using the “*” button - and therefore eliminated my “exposure lock” button… and in only one of the shots of the movie was exposure ever an issue… therefore - locking down exposure did not prove a critical as I had assumed…"

So it appears our concerns were unfounded. My only remaining concern is that he says the only acceptable shutter speeds are 1/60 or 1/125, whereas I had heard all shutter speeds between 1/30 and 1/125 were available. Still, the ability to shoot in P, Av or Tv and the ability to lock exposure are all present.

Let's put it this way.. Let's wait until CANON tells you. I have heard from a Canon source that regardless of what RG and Laforet have been stating, they are mistaken. Video is AUTO. However, you can set it in AV mode, but once you start recording, it takes over both shutter, ISO and Aperture. EV correction is the workaround.

I hear this from someone we all know from Canon...but posted on a private forum... I hope he is wrong personally.

apdieb wrote:
Let's put it this way.. Let's wait until CANON tells you. I have heard from a Canon source that regardless of what RG and Laforet have been stating, they are mistaken...


I highly doubt that Laforet is mistaken about how he used the camera to shoot the video.

On the other hand, it was a pre-production 5D MkII.

apdieb wrote:
Let's put it this way.. Let's wait until CANON tells you. I have heard from a Canon source that regardless of what RG and Laforet have been stating, they are mistaken.

Are you implying that Laforet doesn't know how he shot his video?

...you can set it in AV mode, but once you start recording, it takes over both shutter, ISO and Aperture. EV correction is the workaround.

Do you mean program shift or exposure compensation? I've seen "EV correction" used to describe both, but they're actually different things.

If "EV correction" means exposure compensation, it is not a "workaround." It will cause under- or over-exposure as it closes down or opens up the aperture. If "EV correction" means program shift, it would perhaps allow some limited amount of control over aperture, as it would compensate with shutter and/or ISO as the aperture changes -- maybe. That's if the three variable implementation is done the right way.

What people really want is the ability to control aperture and exposure. Canon must know this, so I'm thinking Laforet is probably not mistaken when he describes how everything works.

I am implying that a well known Canon Rep stated (on another private forum) Laforet and RG are both mistaken in their blogs. Whether or not that is true is here nor there...Just saying that the rep stated they were mistaken on how it worked.

Someone posted the exact comment from Laforet's blog that is quoted here in this thread. The rep said, he was aware of these statements, but that it was not accurate.

I'll be interested to see who is right. I am hoping Laforet is.

Am I right in thinking that focus during video is either MF or slow Contrast Focus INCLUDING if you want to shoot a still mid videoing? That might put a dampner on those who think that this might change the face of wedding photography - forget not having a new AF system, if they are shooting video and stills it's a manual focusing game, not fun with moving subjects and shallow DOF. I still think it's more a movie camera (with all the quality that implies) than a video camera.

apdieb wrote:
I am implying that a well known Canon Rep stated (on another private forum) Laforet and RG are both mistaken in their blogs.

Who said it? Chuck Westfall? What forum? There's no point in being coy about it.

Beni wrote:
I still think it's more a movie camera (with all the quality that implies) than a video camera.

Completely agree.

On the Luminous Landscape forum they are already talking of accessories for proper focus pulling, the use of manual focus lenses for smooth focus, etc, etc. Lot of small movie type productions seem very excited about it, cheaper than RED, far better than video.

Someone mentions there the fact that 30fps will be a problem with 50hz lighting. As that is all the fluorescent lighting in the UK I think it would be important to clear this up. Most of my shooting is done in at least partially fluorescent lit halls.

More to the point, if they have the technology then why the heck haven't Canon put this into a video camera? Wouldn't that clear the market and it's a market that budgets about 10-50X what pro photography does.

apdieb wrote:
I am implying that a well known Canon Rep stated (on another private forum) Laforet and RG are both mistaken in their blogs. Whether or not that is true is here nor there...Just saying that the rep stated they were mistaken on how it worked.

Someone posted the exact comment from Laforet's blog that is quoted here in this thread. The rep said, he was aware of these statements, but that it was not accurate.

I'll be interested to see who is right. I am hoping Laforet is.




can you give a link to this forum?

I saw the MKII video. It's nice, but I don't see the need to include limited video capabilities in a heavy still camera. After all, High Def is available on small, lightweight still cameras like the LX3 with the same sound system - little sound holes in the body.

Thanks to a lighting crew, a Bourne soundtrack, a gifted cinematographer, exceptional editing, and a rolling list of credits that made the one minute video possible, the 5DII makes it look like anyone can extract that same kind of drama... like from your kid's birthday party. I guess one should decide if you are a serious photographer or a not so serious videographer.

Yeah, a kids birthday. Pretty good to know that someone with a good knowledge of production CAN do that WITH a dSLR.

Barry Pehlman wrote:
I guess one should decide if you are a serious photographer or a not so serious videographer.



I'm both, so the camera is perfect for me

Upon further Googling I see that the 5DMKII 1080 HD video is being compared to $17K HD video cameras by at least one person. I guess this means its the beginning of the end for research on production quality HD video. Look for Canon to suspend making their own video cameras as a result.

The 5DMKII may have to overcome a couple of things before you see them covering the evening news 1) A 4GB card = 10 minutes of video. 2) Shouldn't the new 5D be completely weather-proofed to cover hurricanes and war zones, the places that would seem mostly likely to be useful for this Swiss-Army camera? 3) Faced with shooting stills or video, do you shoot video and edit poor outtakes, or shoot stills to get better quality? 4) You've got to have fast Ls with IS and focal lengths in the 24-70 range to help avoid camera shake. Internal IS is usually built into a video body. All video cameras have zoom lenses. This is kind of at odds with fast primes on a still camera.

Then there is quality sound, video flip screens, the purchase of a major editing program, holding a 5 pounds of camera at arms length, and a the need to upgrade your computer (Apple is almost essential for video) with tons of memory. So be thankful for the inclusion of video, just don't expect miracles.

Barry Pehlman wrote:
Upon further Googling I see that the 5DMKII 1080 HD video is being compared to $17K HD video cameras by at least one person.

Frankly, it's putting many of those multi-thousand dollar video cameras to shame in one respect: low-light shooting. In many other respects it's inferior, of course.

The 5DMKII may have to overcome a couple of things before you see them covering the evening news 1) A 4GB card = 10 minutes of video.

With 50 and 100 GB compact flash cards hitting the market after Photokina, I don't think that will be an issue.

2) Shouldn't the new 5D be completely weather-proofed to cover hurricanes and war zones, the places that would seem mostly likely to be useful for this Swiss-Army camera?

1-series weatherproofing would be a welcome addition, but supposedly the 5D II is better sealed than the Mark I version, even if it doesn't compare to the 1-series yet. Even so, hurricane winds and rain would take out a 1-series pretty quickly too.

3) Faced with shooting stills or video, do you shoot video and edit poor outtakes, or shoot stills to get better quality?

That's not really an issue. PJs have the same issue now -- do they shoot the video or snap the photos? The 5D II actually alleviates this concern somewhat -- in the middle of shooting a video clip you can snap a photo without stopping the video capture. This results in a full-resolution still photo and a very short pause in the video. However, for news-gathering purposes a 2 megapixel frame pulled from the video stream will probably be more than good enough for newspaper and small magazine reproductions.

4) You've got to have fast Ls with IS and focal lengths in the 24-70 range to help avoid camera shake.

No, you don't. At mid-short focal lengths, IS is handy but not necessary; good handholding technique can produce perfectly usable video. If IS is desired, something like the 24-105/4L should produce excellent results.

Remember too that this camera sets new thresholds for high ISO performance. Many of the Laforet clips were shot in near-darkness at ISO 1600 or 2000 and apertures hovering around f/2. Bring up the light even a little bit, to sunset/dusk conditions, and almost any zoom at ISO 800 or 1600 would work perfectly well.

Then there is quality sound,

The 5D II has a stereo sound input jack on it that you can connect a high-quality mike to.

video flip screens, the purchase of a major editing program, holding a 5 pounds of camera at arms length, and a the need to upgrade your computer (Apple is almost essential for video) with tons of memory. So be thankful for the inclusion of video, just don't expect miracles.

All perfectly valid points, though I suspect most PJs already have computers adequate to the task. The 5D II won't replace dedicated videocams for every purpose, but I do suspect a large number of PJs to use them for 'news'-type event coverage.

moondigger wrote:


The 5DMKII may have to overcome a couple of things before you see them covering the evening news 1) A 4GB card = 10 minutes of video.

With 50 and 100 GB compact flash cards hitting the market after Photokina, I don't think that will be an issue.


The limitation is the CF card size, but the allowable size for a FAT32 file size, which is 4GB max. Until DLSRs use maybe NTSC or other format method, FAT32 will limit the file size to 4GB.

Barry Pehlman wrote:
Upon further Googling I see that the 5DMKII 1080 HD video is being compared to $17K HD video cameras by at least one person.

Frankly, it's putting many of those multi-thousand dollar video cameras to shame in one respect: low-light shooting. In many other respects it's inferior, of course.

There seems to be a big emphasis on low light shooting for video. The fact is that video camera manufacturers make prosumer zooms with f2 and f1.8 lenses, however, still cameras don't. You can shoot low light with a f1.2 prime if you can keep it in focus, but that generally isn't how movies or videos are shot. Did anyone ever see a videographer change lenses at a wedding?

The 5DMKII may have to overcome a couple of things before you see them covering the evening news 1) A 4GB card = 10 minutes of video.

With 50 and 100 GB compact flash cards hitting the market after Photokina, I don't think that will be an issue.

It still comes back to: Are you a videographer or photographer? This issue has been discussed for many years among motion picture people. The videographer thinks that the video camera is the tool of choice because it is able to deliver both stills and video. Videocams have infinitely more fine tuning than a still camera with video function. I think still photographers gravitate to motion pictures, not the reverse.


2) Shouldn't the new 5D be completely weather-proofed to cover hurricanes and war zones, the places that would seem mostly likely to be useful for this Swiss-Army camera?

1-series weatherproofing would be a welcome addition, but supposedly the 5D II is better sealed than the Mark I version, even if it doesn't compare to the 1-series yet. Even so, hurricane winds and rain would take out a 1-series pretty quickly too.

I guess "supposedly" so. The CNN HD video cameras seemed to hold up to the last three hurricanes.

4) You've got to have fast Ls with IS and focal lengths in the 24-70 range to help avoid camera shake.

No, you don't. At mid-short focal lengths, IS is handy but not necessary; good handholding technique can produce perfectly usable video. If IS is desired, something like the 24-105/4L should produce excellent results.

Well the f4 24-105 seems to dispell the 5DMKII low light advantage.
Without steady cam you end up with hard-to-watch movies like the fight sequences in the Bourne Ultimatum... which was actually shot with hand-held stabilized MP cameras.

Remember too that this camera sets new thresholds for high ISO performance. Many of the Laforet clips were shot in near-darkness at ISO 1600 or 2000 and apertures hovering around f/2. Bring up the light even a little bit, to sunset/dusk conditions, and almost any zoom at ISO 800 or 1600 would work perfectly well.

Canon doesn't make an f2 zoom for still cameras. Besides, if you were given that assignment would you rather shoot it on video or chance it to a still camera with a video function? Yeah, it can be done as can flying with a jet pack over the English Channel but crossing by boat might make more sense.

Then there is quality sound,

The 5D II has a stereo sound input jack on it that you can connect a high-quality mike to.

True, but it's like, who cares. This brings me back to the expected use of HD in a DSLR - shooting kid's birthday parties instead of using a small video camera or a Lumix LX3 at 25% the weight and bulk. The downside is the HD on the LX3 is only 720.


video flip screens, the purchase of a major editing program, holding a 5 pounds of camera at arms length, and a the need to upgrade your computer (Apple is almost essential for video) with tons of memory. So be thankful for the inclusion of video, just don't expect miracles.

All perfectly valid points, though I suspect most PJs already have computers adequate to the task. The 5D II won't replace dedicated videocams for every purpose, but I do suspect a large number of PJs to use them for 'news'-type event coverage.

Agreed, but I still think it's going to be more the other way around - videocams with still capabilities.

moondigger wrote:
apdieb wrote:
I am implying that a well known Canon Rep stated (on another private forum) Laforet and RG are both mistaken in their blogs.

Who said it? Chuck Westfall? What forum? There's no point in being coy about it.

Yes. And according to the sites rules, direct quotes are not allow. I am not a member any longer (it is a subscription based site), but got info from another that still is. I was being "coy" because I was trying to adhere to their rules. But...I thought it worth sharing anyway in case people were being mislead. If it is true, then Canon needs to stand up and clarify. That is why I posted. Many of us have preordered the bodies.

DigitalWeddingForum

The bit I liked best in the the Forest vid was when the maw climbed into the chopper to exhibit his really coool shades and then to show off his not-at-all-vain-mad-acting-skillz he tried to lean his hand against the door frame of the chopper and missed, nearly falling to his death. Now that would have been a good use of the video feature...

I downloaded Vincent's 3 raw video clips and played with them in a pro PP workflow. Here were my observations and opinions...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29524687

Sal

A direct quote from another (much less well-known) forum, that I find extremely compelling:

"I just noticed something: in cinematography, 35mm film has a maximum of 24.89 X 18.66 mm frame size (in the case of Super35 - RED Cameras have a sensor of this size). But in 5D MKII, we are talking about a 36 x 24 mm sensor, which is significantly larger than these. There is a comparison of sensor sizes on RED's technology page, too (I wonder if they will take Canon full frame sensor as a threat from now on?).

I find this very interesting, so 5D MKII took cinematography beyond 35mm in terms of light-sensitive surface, right?"

... and I say; Right! With even more potential for the use of selective focus, etc. on a huge variety of lenses (and the challenges that will bring, as well).

From VL:

"first of all - DON’T BUY OR NOT BUY the camera based on my recommendation - I am not a Canon rep …. remember: I had no manual, details are still murky - and I haven’t had a chance to see the camera let alone use it since that weekend…

With that said:

I spoke w/ Chuck - as it is indeed essential that we do get this crystal clear. To my understanding and this is “key” -it’s my understanding and not something I have been able to try myself…- everything I have said is true - but let’s re-iterate:

You cannot set the exposure, aperture, and ISO manually in any video mode or in the “M” mode - period.

HOWEVER: you can effectively have the camera do this by locking the exposure by using the “*” button … and it’s really not that difficult at all.

While you can’t set everything manually (agree this is a professional need - we all know it) you can do the following: set it to any mode - I personally set it to Aperture priority mode - set it to f2 or f2.8 - and then turned on live view…

The aperture starts at f2 therefore, the camera then picks a shutter speed (between 1/30th and 1/125th) and then sets the ISO automatically… once you hit the “*” button - those settings are LOCKED in… the key point here is: that by pointing it to a darker or lighter area - you can “force” the shutter speed and/or ISO to go in the direction you want it to… note: I never had to do this once during my filming of “Reverie” - but it’s at least possible - in case you want to do something real funky…

So… you can (through a work around) lock the exposure down to your desired settings… and still use the EV +/- dial in the back to correct up or down from that locked starting point as you shoot…(if you wish)

Granted having it all “manual” would be key. But don’t forget - this is a first gen camera… it doesn’t have all of the “pro” bells and whistles..

Also take into account - that the entire reverie movie was shot WITHOUT the “*” exposure lock… and only on the Empire State tight shot do you see that as I panned won - camera closed the exposure down… so it’s pretty dead on to start with and you can easily open the camera up or down to over or underex with the back control dial…

So for me it works. Not perfect - but very very well. Make sense?

there is an easy workaround - and I think it should assuage your and everyone’s concerns… one of the key things is to be able to “lock in” an exposure setting - so that it doesn’t change (on it’s own) as you shoot - THIS can be done - albeit with a workaround as opposed to dialing in the exposure settings on your own."