Knowing Leica, its going to become a toy camera for the rich and famous, and priced beyond what normal working pros can afford. Leica has become the maker for the Hollywierd elites, and other people who have money to burn. Regrettable in that Leica was the leading camera mfg in the past, who was the one to emulate. Its really a pity that they have become a bespoke company.

... and that is all due to having their own lens mount. If they could sell lenses in other popular mounts (35mm or medium format), and those lenses were best in class, then even if it were expensive, people could add that one special lens to their system, e.g. an 80mm f1.4 which was sharp wide open with a typical Leica bokeh.

As it is, you need to buy the entire Leica system and their bodies are holding them back. I guess the S2 was released to solve this problem.

The alliance with Phase One could mean that Leica is going to develop lenses for the Phase One MF camera.

Great point Graham. Zeiss has accepted that it must do business by making lenses in a range of mounts. That would seem to me to be a viable course for Leica too. They should have started doing this years ago. Some of their lenses are very good, and most of them have a style that appeals to certain photographers. I don't know why they haven't done this yet, but it seems to me that for a long time Leica's business model has been to charge considerably more than the market rate for their products, and rely on the history and aura of the brand to make up the difference. I suspect also that some of their manufacturing methods are an anachronism, and make it harder for them to partner with progressive Japanese lens makers, who can see that technology is generating enormous savings in lens production. There are currently a great many newly designed CaNikon lenses which match or surpass Leica lenses in the same focal length, but they are built much more cheaply. Leica will only make profits selling independent lenses if it can match the quality and efficiencies of CaNikon. When you look at lenses like the EF-S 70-200 f4 L IS, and the Nikkor 14-24, it by no means seems certain that Leica can continue to produce class-leading lenses.

Geert Koning wrote:
The alliance with Phase One could mean that Leica is going to develop lenses for the Phase One MF camera.


The announcement of the alliance with Phase One was Leica most interesting announcement. If Leica is going to design and/or produce lenses for Phase One it suggests the P1 is trying to differentiate themselves from the Mamiya base of their camera and produce a higher level product (one they would have had a few years ago, if their board was more forward thinking and approved the deal for the Contax 645, and, presumably, Zeiss.

Interestingly, Zeiss is the only major medium format lens designer left without a MFsystem they supply. One wonders if this will persist.

Hassy -- Fuji lenses
Sinar, Leaf, Rollei -- Schneider & Jenoptik lenses
Phase One -- Mamiya & Leica lenses

Sarsfield wrote:
Although I agree with Lotus' assessment of Brainiac's analysis, I do see a veiled attack at Leica and it's users in many of his posts.

Not an attack on Leica, but a determination to describe its failings, because I perceive an equal and opposite determination not to do so in SOME forum contributors. Not an attack on Leica's users, for many of whom I feel great sympathy, but an attack on the handful of apologists who seem to want to do the job of Leica's PR department, by proliferating myths about M image quality which are no longer true, even if they ever were. You have to attack myths in order to reach a more objective truth.

> Having said that, I do feel for the many anguished souls who have been sold a bill of goods with the M and R systems and who have invested time and a significant amount of money for seemingly trouble filled photography.

Hear, hear!

>Now, my solution? Brainiac will have to go to time out for awhile. Tariq, you should also take a breather. Everybody else, carry on.

Good luck with that! ;-) Seriously though, people always try to stop me expressing any negative opinions I may have about Leica and it's products. I am used to it. Your comments have been among the politest and best thought-out efforts to censor me. Keep it coming.

Blog report on S2 handling. Looks good - large viewfinder, no noticeable shutter lag.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

kleinssz69 wrote:
Blog report on S2 handling. Looks good - large viewfinder, no noticeable shutter lag.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/


Thanks. What I expected! Smaller than most MF viewfinders but larger than 35 FF viewfinder from Canon or Nikon. That means lower magnification for its format. From that blog:

"The viewfinder is big and bright with plenty of eye relief. It isn’t as large as the viewfinder of the Mamiya 645 or Sinar Hy6, but larger than a D3 or 1DsIII."

From the blog, looking at that Nikon D700 sitting beside the Leica S2, you can't help but be impressed by what Leica was able to pull off. The design is pretty remarkable and its amazing they have such late, fully working prototypes.

Looks great. Good to clarify the viewfinder situation. I have to say though, that Farkas' style still seems like panting infatuation. He is a true worshipper. It makes you wonder whether his report is fair-minded, or whether he is just going to gush his heart out about everything that a Leica employee has ever touched.

The size of the camera is fantastic considering the sensor size. It makes you wonder how small a full-frame 135 format DSLR could be. As far as I'm concerned, the only essential use of a joystick is to move the AF point, so this camera won't miss it much. The interface looks very nice. I can't agree with him about only needing a centre AF point. One of my main dislikes in current DSLR's is that none of them has an AF system which allows you to pick an AF point nearer the edge of the frame. I almost never focus on the centre, and I find focus-recompose slow and irritatingly repetitive for shooting moving subjects like people, quite apart from the fact that with these lenses and 37 megapixels you will definitely see focus shift as you recompose with the wideangle lenses at wider apertures. All in all, though, it looks very exciting.

Interesting that ISO only goes to 1600 or 3200. That may well be pessimistic, as I find my 1Ds3 quite usable at iso 12800 even though it doesn't have the settings for it. The large sensor in the S2 ought to mean that shooting at effective 6400 or 12800 and then downrezzing might look pretty good. I suppose I'll probably have to find a way of doing my own tests of that.

I can't wait to see examples of its image quality.

brainiac wrote:
I have to say though, that Farkas' style still seems like panting infatuation. He is a true worshipper. It makes you wonder whether his report is fair-minded, or whether he is just going to gush his heart out about everything that a Leica employee has ever touched..

You have to give him a break. He is a Leica dealer, so this is all written from the point of a product he has to sell. His shop also has a very good reputation, so he probably is very honest in his reporting and excitement over the camera.

Robert

Gutsy move by Leica. I think it looks very promising, and by the looks/specs it would suit me just fine. I wouldn't mind having a complete outfit, but I know it will take a miracle, a winning streak at the lottery and plain good fortune before I ever can afford one.

Things are stirring and several new interesting products are surfacing, good times for gearheads for sure.

I would love to see what the camera/lenses/sensor are capable of. If it is not all that great I can rest assured knowing I wouldn't have to break all the piggy-banks in the whole neighbourhood to get one.

brainiac wrote:

Interesting that ISO only goes to 1600 or 3200. That may well be pessimistic, as I find my 1Ds3 quite usable at iso 12800 even though it doesn't have the settings for it. The large sensor in the S2 ought to mean that shooting at effective 6400 or 12800 and then downrezzing might look pretty good. I suppose I'll probably have to find a way of doing my own tests of that.

I can't wait to see examples of its image quality.

For MF, if Leica if able to pull off low noise, good looking ISO 800-1600, it will be quite an achievement.

Lotusm50 wrote:
Interestingly, Zeiss is the only major medium format lens designer left without a MFsystem they supply. One wonders if this will persist.

Hassy -- Fuji lenses
Sinar, Leaf, Rollei -- Schneider & Jenoptik lenses
Phase One -- Mamiya & Leica lenses

The Sinar m lenses are Zeiss. They are AF. And also big $$$

jjlphoto wrote:
Lotusm50 wrote:
Interestingly, Zeiss is the only major medium format lens designer left without a MFsystem they supply. One wonders if this will persist.

Hassy -- Fuji lenses
Sinar, Leaf, Rollei -- Schneider & Jenoptik lenses
Phase One -- Mamiya & Leica lenses

The Sinar m lenses are Zeiss. They are AF. And also big $$$



Yes, but the Sinar M has been left behind by advancing technology. It might have been an appealing concept a couple years ago, but not any more. The more recent Sinar HY6 platform is superior in almost every way (at this point the ability of the M to use Nikon 35mm lenses is of trivial value -- the adapter costs more and is less functional than just buying a D700). I suspect the M will fade out of the line-up as Sinar focuses on the Hy6 platform (if it hasn't been silently discontinued already). So Zeiss' tiny (minuscule, really), insignificant, remaining medium format role, will disappear to nothing.

kleinssz69 wrote:
Blog report on S2 handling. Looks good - large viewfinder, no noticeable shutter lag.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/


looks like it's quite a bit larger than D700 without a grip. the chip really isn't that much larger than a 35 mm, when you see them side by side. with .70 (de)magnification and a 100% finder it'd actually be smaller than the OM-1's finder, if my math is right.

The biggest challenge with any new platform is acceptance by pros. If a pro's body or lens goes down, and the back-ups fail, or not available, chances are you can easily and quickly lay your hands on Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad(V & H), or Mamiya bodies and/or lenses.

> the chip really isn't that much larger than a 35 mm, when you see them side by side.

The big question is whether CaNikon's lead in sensors will nullify the S2's size advantage. It's pretty clear that the 1Ds3 fared surprisingly well against certain MFDB's if used as carefully. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

kleinssz69 wrote:
Blog report on S2 handling. Looks good - large viewfinder, no noticeable shutter lag.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

Good to see he's updated the blog since yesterday.

That OLED screen on the top is super geeky and cool. Mmmm, colors. IMHO, that's a gorgeously designed piece of equipment overall.

Kind of reminds me of the interior of a Saab.

Well, I have to admit I was very doubtful about this camera at first, but after this interesting read, I'm totally convinced (but can probably never afford it). In these times when DSLR are turning into P&S with all the gimmicks, video and all, it gives me hope to see a company like Leica still committed to "Photography". Perhaps history will repeat itself soon, as not long ago, real photographers used at least a MF camera upwards while the kids played around with a 24x36 It would be interesting to see an R10, if it will ever be produced. When the future 1Ds4 will feature video capability, I know which way I'm going to look.

The lack of gimmicks on the S2 probably allows for smaller size. Myself, all I need 99% of the time is the shutter button, aperture control, playback screen, MLU, and of course metering.

cogitech wrote:
What? It doesn't shoot video



Maybe it is here?

By opening the PC Sync/HDMI cover and pressing a super secret button with a pen tip the left strap lug comes out of the camera and a yet-to-be-designed WiFi adapter will plug in to enable wireless tethering.
----
The HDMI cable allows both 1080p and 1920x1200 outputs for image review on external LCD monitor at high res while still enabling CF/SD storage. Great for commercial shooting where straight tethering is a slowdown and you need to have a large real-time image display in studio.


from http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

jjlphoto wrote:
The biggest challenge with any new platform is acceptance by pros. If a pro's body or lens goes down, and the back-ups fail, or not available, chances are you can easily and quickly lay your hands on Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad(V & H), or Mamiya bodies and/or lenses.
That is exactly why the association with Phase One is of crucial importance.

robsteve wrote:
davewolfs wrote:
For that money why not just invest into a system that will be around for a while i.e. Phase One + Mamiya or Hassy.

I think Leica has been around longer than either of those companies

Just because a company has been around for a while does not mean that it will succeed with all of its new products. They are entering an existing market, why go with a fixed system when something that is open and modular is available?

do we have any idea how much this body and lenses will costs? has leica said ?