Umm, the only Profoto modifier that a third-party light can't use is the basic reflector line...zooms and magnums, essentially. Since most everything else uses speedrings, you can conceivably mount them to any brand of light. Hell, beyond a handful of zoom and grid reflectors I don't own a single Profoto modifier, not even an umbrella - it's all Photoflex, Mola, Chimera, Westcott. Most of us aren't brand zealots, we just use what works for us.

As far as mounting Paul's modifiers to Profoto heads - other than for a chuckle, why would you want to do that? I mean, as I understand it, his foldable softboxes are the only proprietary mods...the rest are just inexpensive softboxes and umbrellas. I can already put a cheap softbox, with or without a Buff logo on it, on a less-cheap head and still fail to see the novelty value in that. I might even be able to power my Acute2 packs off a Vagabond - don't see why that's funny either, it's just another way to get a shot.

I don't think the photo snobs are ever going to accept any product that doesn't cost as much as theirs. So I'm afraid Einstein will just have to settle for the 90% of non-snob users.

Paul. I think your gear is terrific, and I not only have used it myself, but continue to recommend it to people all the time when asked about how to get into quality lighting. And even as a so-called "photo snob," I will be the very first in line to buy at least 4 kits if you can build the equivilent of the Profoto 600br at a lower price. All I ask is that is has the same power and range, quick-change rubber collar, and be the same size/weight or smaller.

And I will even very likely be purchasing a few Einstein units if they prove to be up to the specs listed earlier. I don't know too many who actually prefer to spend more money. It really does come down to performance and convenience factors at least for me.

Randy

I have both. Don't know what the hoopla's all about. Just use what ever you like. Don't see the point of putting someone down because they like something that just happens to cost more. It's just preference. There's no right or wrong.

It's like me putting down my buddy because he likes vodka better and I like whiskey. Or he likes boobs and I like legs Who cares.

And I also just use Profoto's reflectors. For other modifiers, I use Mola, Elinchrom, and other brands instead.

Oh and since I have both, what does that make me? Does it cancel each other out? or does it double and make me a super-snob?

I think you are a super snob, warrens... =o)

Shatterkiss and others: I really was under the impression that one of the main benefits of profoto lights was the line of modifiers and attachments. Are the reflectors that useful to justify the cost of the whole system, or do you really find that the quality of light right out of the flash tube is significantly better than other brands of lights?

I know I started this tangent making silly remarks that no one but me found funny, but I really would appreciate an honest answer, I'm not trying to be a jerk about it... Is the profoto light output better than say, elinchrom or another high end brand, or even alien bees, or is there a lot more to it that I am missing..

Lets put the reflectors aside for a minute... is there something that profoto can do that other lights really can't? Or a shot that profoto makes much better?

rffffffff wrote:
is there something that profoto can do that other lights really can't?

Like the most extensive rental support anywhere in the states.

To the "commercial" (please note I did not say professional) photographer this is indispensable.

I can see that being a huge deal in certain instances... I make my living as a photographer only these days, but I am not a commercial photographer by any means. I suppose that might make a difference for fashion photographers too, but what about for the rest of us?

Perhaps this really is the line of demarkation that Paul references... Maybe roughly 90% of photographers really wouldn't see much benefit from other lights?

rffffffff wrote:
Are the reflectors that useful to justify the cost of the whole system, or do you really find that the quality of light right out of the flash tube is significantly better than other brands of lights?

It's kinda yes to both. The Profoto tension-collar modifier mount is just indisputably brilliant. Not only is it the most secure mount I've seen, which is great with heavier objects like beauty dishes, but it's still pretty convenient for mount/dismount. My gripe with it is that it gets misshapen when it's not mounted to a head, but that's a minor quibble. The real brilliance is that it's adjustable forward and back, making any reflector or modifier mounted to it focusable...fantastic! Think about this - you know how you can rack heads deeper or shallower into umbrellas to adjust the coverage? Profoto lets you do that with every reflector! This means you can actually feather hard light by using the sides of just a basic reflector and otherwise-bare head.

The build quality of Profoto heads and packs is also just terrifically solid. That's really comforting when you can't always baby your gear.

But yes, I think they do make better light out of the box. Besides Profoto I've owned Dynalite, older White Lightnings, Photogenics. I've also used or rented Speedos and Novatrons. The closest in quality of light I've come with the other systems is with Dyna's 4040 heads, which also have frosted bulb covers. It's hard to explain, but there's just a precision and cleanliness to the light out of more expensive heads that's a joy to shoot with.

And Carmen's comment was dead-on: knowing that pretty much any rental house in the world that I go to will carry tons of Profoto is a big plus. That may not be a big deal to you, but lots of professional photographers are hired for projects that exceed the gear they own...or they don't own much gear at all. Consistency is big for that shooter, knowing that they can show up in town somewhere, pull 10 packs and 20 heads and still get gear that they and all of their assistants are intimately familiar with. Even being able to rent just a couple of additional heads or packs to supplement gear I already own is great.

There are upsides and downsides to everything. I could probably pack out twice as many AB heads and still have half the weight of a Profoto kit. I'd certainly be at a fraction the price. But for me, the benefits of Profoto outweigh the burden of the cost.

Simon,

I couldn't agree more, and I couldn't have said it better.

Paul Buff wrote:
I don't think the photo snobs are ever going to accept any product that doesn't cost as much as theirs. So I'm afraid Einstein will just have to settle for the 90% of non-snob users.

Make a product with the same build quality, light quality and features as a grafit pack for half the price I'd buy a few of them. I'll even over look the fact of your being a big baby about anytime somone says your lights aren't as good as Bron, Profoto or Elinchrome.

Just because 90% of people use them doesn't make your lights better. What percentage of pros or commercial photographer use them?

A bigger percentage of canon shooters use P&S's, by your logic that would make them better than the 1ds III's or even MFDB's.

I have seen this 'discussion' come and go a few times here, but I have never read it explained as well before... I can see how the reflector thing is great from miles away, and I would love to play with that... but the quality of light comment actually interests me more... Thank you for for a clear response.

I am about to get back into crazy season here soon, but I think as soon as thats all over in december or january I may have to rent some profoto equipment and see what its all about for myself.

The problem with that, though, is that I am a horrible snob, and if I really can put the differences to good use I am going to be out ten grand in a hurry... =o) Then I'll come back on FM and insult all of those damn Alien bee users! =o) Until then, thanks for the info!

It's a slippery slope! I thought I was happy with my Dyna gear until I spent some time assisting a fashion shooter who rented exclusively Profoto. Now I'm happy with my Profoto gear, but I make a point of averting my eyes when I see the D4 packs...and I'm sure as hell not visiting Brent's studio again now that he owns Bron. You hear that, Brent? Next time I'm in town you have to throw a bunch of Duvetyne over that stuff before I'll walk through the door. :P

It's honestly not about snobbery at all - Brent's right, most of us don't care about the label on the gear, it's about the experience of using it and the images it helps us create. I don't like Paul very much, entirely because of his activities here on FM, but I have tremendous appreciation for the lights he sells. I just don't care to own them for myself, at least not at this stage in my career. Ask me again in a few years, maybe I'll feel differently.

Brent Ward wrote:
What percentage of pros or commercial photographer use them?


As mentioned above, a pro is a lot different than a commercial photographer... I think the buff market share of 'pro' photographers is probably really high... his market share in 'commercial' photographers is probably fairly low.

Honestly, for all of the discussion, the build quality of AB lights may seem plasticy, but I have seen these things bounce all over the floor and walls and they just never break. The plastic has a lot to do with it. They are pretty bulletproof in hard use. And the light quality really might not be up there with profoto (I intend to find out) but for so much of my lighting I am lucky if the kid is on the backdrop at all much less in the right position, so most of the time I am lighting for safety rather than perfection. Its unglamourous and certainly less than art at times, but its the reality of my particular segment of photography for the most part...

And to promote harmony: I love AB's for what they are... and I appreciate Paul being on these forums at all... There really isnt too much need to be nasty about it...

slippery slope indeed... I hope I am inadequate enough to notice the difference, but I have a feeling I might just get bitten...

Maybe I'll actually attempt to shoot something that has controlled movements in the process and lean towards learning something else too...

the first time I put the 85 1.4 on my camera I was instantly sold and utterly dissatisfied with almost everything else...

That being said, the einstein lights, I think the original point of this thread, mayh have something that bites too... We shall see!

Yup, one of the reasons I love Profoto is the mounting collar. That alone was a great selling point to me. Also, the output consistency. I love that fact that when I meter the light, I get the same output from shot to shot. And as Simon said the light, it's... I don't know how to quite explain it, it's silky, I don't know, but it's really nice. I believe it has a lot to do with the frosted dome. But you have to use them for light shaping. If you're going to be using a softbox, then I don't think you'll see a difference between them or any other manufacturer.

Also, to me light is light, I can get very similar results using AlienBees as I can with my Profoto's. The Profotos are just more consistent to me and I'm just more comfortable with them.

In regards to Profoto - the light quality is nothing more than the frosted dome. Now, in regards to control and white balance, Profoto really shines. Max or Min power, the Profoto gear is accurate and consistent. That perk aside, people on a forum who've never used Profoto simply don't get what it's like. Like Shatterkiss stated, it's a matter of being introduced to it. I've done assisting work for people using both Dynalite and Profoto. I'll never buy Dynalite (sorry Brent). I would buy Profoto, but don't want to have the cost of doing so. I can do 90% what Profoto does with my X1600's. If I'm careful. What Profoto also gives you over most other manufacturers is build quality and the single modifier mount to ever be touched by God. Even a lot of professional photographers don't have a clue what it is to be on a commercial shoot, let alone most of the readers on FM. It's chaotic with supreme gear punishment. While the little things quickly make or break gear from a set worthy aspect (simply because the demands are extremely high on gear on a commercial set). Good gear with even a slightly less quality than Profoto can quickly fail. So, even though I personally don't own Profoto, I've used them and fully appreciate them. It's not a matter of being an elitist (although with the amount of $ it takes to get into Profoto can create some fanboy response to justify the purchase). But with Profoto, it really is that good.

I only bought Bron for one feature that no other pack has. If I could of found a pack with the same feature for much less I would of bought it!

But I will say this, I had a primo head on a stand fall during a shoot a couple of weeks ago. It was about 12 feet high and fell square on a corner of the head.

The protective glass dome bounced off and shattered, but the head just had a very little dent in it...

Thanks Simon, I agree with you 100%!

Many if us have been through these debates in the past and fell a bit burned by them. Simon sticks in there, and in that regard he speaks for a lot of us who have "dropped out"!

Best,
Michael

Oh, that's just because I'm an idiot who has trouble learning his lessons. For the most part, I skip threads that are AB-specific to avoid getting dragged into flamewars and being tagged a "photo snob".

shatterkiss wrote:
Oh, that's just because I'm an idiot who has trouble learning his lessons. For the most part, I skip threads that are AB-specific to avoid getting dragged into flamewars and being tagged a "photo snob".

I think a lot of us do. Sometimes I'm feeling a little sadomachistic, so I post.

well all in all, despite turning this into kinda the same old thing, I really appreciate the responses...

You know, though, mmurph, I think that makes you a "thread snob" =o)

Hey Paul,

On these new einsteins i believe I read where you will have a different setting to get a quicker T1 time. Will this help in recycle times if there is a setting like this? Or will it still expel full energy and take the full amount of time to recycle.

Einstein has two primary modes: Constant color (Constant 5600°k over 8 f stops range) and Action. It never expels the full capacitor charge , rather it shuts the tube off when the desired power is produced. In Action Mode it maintains the fastest possible duration in the process (as fast as 1/10,000 t.1). It (like Bron and other IGBT controlled flash) does this at the cost of rising color temperature as you reduce power. It also achieves very fast durations in Constant Color mode as you reduce power, but not as dramatically as in Action Mode. The mode selection has no effect on recycle time of approximately 500WS/sec.

Einstein displays color temperature and t.1 time at each power setting and mode.

wow. holy s* thats cool!

I have money burning in my pockets!

when can i buy one!!!

Edited by guardian on Sep 12, 2008 at 12:50 AM GMT

Hey Paul, while we're on the topic, is the Commander really going to have metering capabilities? A simple yes or no will suffice.