Well I thought I had heard just about everything until I went to my local dragstrip last night for some fun and photos.

I'm standing next to the track near the starting line and this track official comes up to me ...a hundred people all around me with cameras of various and assorted sizes... and says, "You have to get back behind that line over there," he points to an area about 75 feet away and continues, "because you can't be up here with a professional DSLR camera.

I'm ALMOST speechless ... for about a millisecond. I said "WHAT?" So he repeated the command again.

I said, "you have to be kidding, right?" I look around at all the cameras everywhere and I say..."you go tell all those people on both sides of the track to get back behind that line first and then come talk to me!" He repeated his command again.

I said, "I know what this is about... the track photographer sent you over here didn't he?" I added, " you tell him that I'm not going ANY WHERE and if he has something to say to me he should have the balls to come over here and say it himself."

I continue to tell him, " you're not talking to some kid... I didn't just fall of the turnip truck... you single me out of a crowd of 100 people for this and you're going to have a problem."

He asked who I was shooting for and I said it's my hobby and I'm friends with the sponsor of this race and I'm taking pictures of his car and others for fun.

He said "I'm going to go check and see if you are telling me the truth... which he did... and I was. He came back later and said that he had checked with my friend and he had confirmed that if I wanted to take picture of his car I was perfectly welcome to.

The guy had regrouped by the time he returned...about a half an hour later... and said, "you know, this isn't my fight...the track photographer told me to do this and you were right... there were dozens of cameras like yours on both sides of the race track being used by folks, so he said as far as he was concerned the issue was over... he smiled and left.

What a crock! This is what our world is coming to... you have to stand your ground or you will be sitting in the stands with your hands in your pockets... because some guy sees you with a better camera than his and thinks you might be competition. I'm NOT his competition...but the difference between me and him is.................. I'm not afraid of competition and I'm not stepping behind the line to make him feel a little less threatened....................

The End

Actually Terry as an event shooter I often have up to a dozen people with the DSLR's shooting my event. More than half of them sale their pictures for under cost so when an event shooter gets upset with you don't be offended. As far as competition goes, I don't mind fair competition, but selling 4x6's for as little as 10 cents isn't exactly fair competition and I know the buying public doesn't care if the photo or print qualities are professional, they think it's all the same!

rodeostore wrote:
Actually Terry as an event shooter I often have up to a dozen people with the DSLR's shooting my event. More than half of them sale their pictures for under cost so when an event shooter gets upset with you don't be offended. As far as competition goes, I don't mind fair competition, but selling 4x6's for as little as 10 cents isn't exactly fair competition and I know the buying public doesn't care if the photo or print qualities are professional, they think it's all the same!

I'm in complete understanding with you as I know you probably make your living (as does this guy) or at least supplement your income doing what he and you do. There was a time years ago when I shot pro sports... motor sports, baseball, basketball and hockey. I stood beside REAL competion.... UP, API and SI guys. They didn't tell me to go away and I sure as hell didn't tell them that.

But now....I'm an aging 62 plus year old LEFT FOOT AMPUTEE who can neither walk, run, squat, stand or even sit at an event for more than a few hours... I'm not his competition... I'm not ANYBODY'S competition any more. I was just having fun. If it wasn't so pathetic it would be laughable.

I'm not selling cheap prints trying to undercut him, nor am I seeking sales period! My work speaks for itself and if someone would ask me if they could buy a print... I can assure you that it would not be cheap. I know exactly what you are saying, but they didn't know me from Adam and singled me out of a hundred people with cameras all popping... so this wasn't the issue here.

If you are a good photographer and offer a good product at a fair and marketable price you will sell prints over ANY BODY... it's your work that speaks for you, not your authority.

This speaks for me...

Edited by Terry D on Jul 20, 2008 at 07:18 PM GMT

Maybe the track official could have used a little more tact up front, asking for credentials or who you were shooting for instead of just flat-out saying you couldn't shoot at all, putting you on the defensive.

When someone is paying for the rights to shoot an event and make sales there, they also have the right to inquire about, and enforce, that no other competing vendors are slipping under the radar and taking advantage of the situation. It's in the track's best interest to make sure that all their paying vendors are taken care of.

Mike Pipes wrote:
Maybe the track official could have used a little more tact up front, asking for credentials or who you were shooting for instead of just flat-out saying you couldn't shoot at all, putting you on the defensive.

When someone is paying for the rights to shoot an event and make sales there, they also have the right to inquire about, and enforce, that no other competing vendors are slipping under the radar and taking advantage of the situation. It's in the track's best interest to make sure that all their paying vendors are taken care of.


Mike, I can't disagree with you your logic. And yes they could have handled this a WHOLE lot better than they did.

Keep in mind, and I had not clarified this before, that this was not a big event. It is a Friday night test and tune... with the addition of this locally sponsored race plugged in between the regular test and tune.

I've only been to that track 3 times this year. I'm not lurking there every time it is open... and I easily could, since it is only 15 minutes from my home.

I'm just not the guy you want to walk up to an start ordering around. This was handled very badly on their part. In the end even the guy that started this whole thing came back and said it wasn't even his fight and that it wasn't right under the circumstances outlined in my OP.

I'm a resonable guy and I was resonable with him to the point of being the only one ordered to step back away from the track. Here is a photo of what was going on... then tell me this was a resonable request under these conditions!

This appears to be an issue that is gaining momentum worldwide.
I shoot a lot of events in Australia, most with credentials however there are some sports events where I go and just sit in the crowd but take my camera (was a 10D now a 1D MkII with 100-400 L Series plus short lenses) and have been bailed up by security and officials and told the same thing.
Some grounds/arenas prohibit "professional quality camera equipment" and lenses longer than 300mm and have it as a "condition of entry" at the gate.
The frustrating thing about this is that there's no consistency around the country.
I was shooting Ashes Test Cricket at Adelaide Oval and got the "You can't use that camera" argument, fought a battle and won. Yet for the same two sides, England Vs Australia in Sydney a few weeks later, no problem. Go figure, same organisers, everything.
I used to argue that the 10D wasn't a professional camera body. I need to come up with an argument for the MkII.
I generally smuggle my gear in (do you know hard it is to hide a 1D Mk II and 100-400? - a big jacket helps) and then argue the toss later if I get chatted.
I go through a fair bit of grief at times but usually have a win.
I use the argument that I'm shooting for myself and there's nothing illegal about being able to afford and buy better camera gear than Joe Average and when they stop everybody else from taking photos, I will be happy to stop - until then leave me alone.
You just have to stand your ground.
Most of these over officious security types are weekend warriors. The power goes to their head and they are just trying to justify their existence and own importance.
Regards
Phil

www.freewebs.com/philwillmedia/apps/photos

Thank you Phil... thank you.

This is really too bad because the shots that I take are not what are on the track photogs agenda. He takes the cars leaving the line and he is glued there for the entire event shooting one car after another.

I for one enjoy a fine magazine called Rodder's Journal ... top quality in every way. They feature old photographs taken of events from the beginning of this whole car, show car, salt flats, hot rod show, cruising era. They use old photos found in everybody's sock drawer. What the hell is anyone going to have to look at some day?

Can you imagine... no early Beatles pictures... no Woodstock pictures, no early drag racing (taken by guys like you and me and Joe Blow)................. We wouldn't have the memories. We wouldn't have the variety and the creativity.

One or two guys allowed to shoot at an event are going to miss a lot of interesting things that are going on and that's a shame.

Well I won this time... but this does take much of the fun out of the event for me after having to face off with someone and get my blood boiling... that's not my idea of a good time. And I really think that it is everybody's loss at some point.

I'm done with this...except to say... if you are an espiring young photographer as I was once... and you have sacrificed to get some damn good and expensive equipment to do your very best ... you'd better fight for your rights... or your rights will be gone! and so will your career possibly. If you can't shoot and learn... how are ya gonna get to the top of your game some day

Nuff Said... The End

I got some goon hassling me for taking pictures of friends in a bar with a 30D recently. I mean, did the idiot think I was running a pro shoot or something? I was just snapshot of people with beer.

There are just too many private rentacops picking on normal people these days over nothing.

Terry D wrote:
you'd better fight for your rights... or your rights will be gone!

This couldn't be more true.

In the UK now, the ownership and use of a quality camera is almost a criminal act, and if you're caught in a public place using a tripod you're heading for trouble. Photographers have been arrested, detained and had their gear impounded simply for using their cameras. There are even posters on the London Underground warning commuters about the dangers of photography:

http://www.met.police.uk/campaigns/counter_terrorism/ct_camera_2008.pdf

Whilst the counter terrorist message is a serious one, it has led to quite a few cases of genuine, innocent photographers being singled out, questioned and searched.

Unless you are a member of the working media, once you enter private property, you have no "rights" to any images. Even if you are working press, you still have to honor house guidelines, rules and regulations. While the venue in question, may allow John Q. Public to shoot as they wish, it is still their property and their event and they may restrict your access to various areas as they see fit. Ticket price does not guarantee you prime shooting locations or the permission to take photos whatsoever. The cars and drivers at the venue you describe have probably been abused by other photogs in the past who tried to profit from their likeness and the house set up rules help protect the participants and the venue.

If you don't believe me, try walking on to the sideline or dug out photo area of a NFL or MLB game. Your purchase of a ticket does not allow you access or the "right" to photograph. Even though, Aunt Sally and all 26 members of the Ladies Auxiliary are allowed to watch the game from field level, the promoters have no obligation to offer you similar access. Any venue may restrict photography from any location as they see fit, with or without signs or info on the tickets stating so. While there may very well be massive numbers of the public in attendance, it is still a private event. All those in attendance agree to abide by the house rules when they purchase a ticket.

Was what happened to you unfair? Absolutely. I too, would have been annoyed. However, IMHO, you were not stripped of your "rights" to take photographs either.

If you shoot anywhere on the property of the TD Centre Buildings in downtown Toronto http://www.tdcentre.ca/home/index.ch2?pageNumber=1 with a "professional-looking" camera, you are asked by security to stop shooting. Apparently you can get permission to do so (a total hassle just for some walking around stuff), and there is a rate charged for any professional shooting. Up to $15000 a day for movies (these buildings have been in a lot of movies).

Tourists with P&S, on the other hand, shoot away happily.

Next time I'm going to push the issue a bit further and see what happens.

Guys...point and shoots are now 10 to12 megapxls and 300 + mm ... who's abusing who here? Some of you guys seem to take this in stride... like its no big deal IMO it is a BIG DEAL.

You may recall a few years back... there was a country that was the land of the free... I think it was call America ....whoops, where'd she go

Terry D wrote:
Guys...point and shoots are now 10 to12 megapxls and 300 + mm ... who's abusing who here? Some of you guys seem to take this in stride... like its no big deal IMO it is a BIG DEAL.

You may recall a few years back... there was a country that was the land of the free... I think it was call America ....whoops, where'd she go

So if you buy a ticket for an event for Section G, Row 47, Seat 23 .... where do you sit? Wherever you want? Or do you sit in the seat you purchased? It IS a classic case of discrimination, you are discriminated against because of the amount you spent for your seat. Are you allowed on the field? In the locker rooms? In the press box? Does the ticket price guarantee you the right of who wins, the final score, how well the actors perform, how the movie ended?

You do have certain constitutional rights. In the instance you describe, I don't see where you were denied any of your constitutional rights. Was the policy unfairly applied? Absolutely. However, you were not denied access because of race, creed, color, political opinion, national origin or religious beliefs. You were probably denied because of the implication that your equipment was capable of producing professional caliber images. Something well within the rights of event officials. That may have been a visible indicator to that person to ask you to move in order to protect their rights. If you feel those who were taking those images with P&S should also not be allowed to do so because of the abilities of current technology, perhaps you should enlighten the promoters. Chances are the person involved has no clue what megapixels and 300mm even means.

Sorry, I am concerned when there may be a constitutional crisis ... based on what you described, this is not one of them. By all means though, contact your local chapter of the ACLU and see if they will take your case on. It would be good to know if the purchase of a ticket, includes the constitutional right of photography at a private event.

Butch you are running wild with this concept that this was a seat assigned event and if you would have read my post and looked at the picture of everyone milling around you can SEE if you LOOK that it wasn't the setup or requirement here.

All these folks out there were not breaking the rules... they were FOLLOWING the relaxed rules that the track allowed ... AND there are NO stated or implied camera or lens prohibitions here... there NEVER has been.

During large events there are seating restrictions... NOT on these test and tune nights.

How about this for right I'm a left foot amputee... How about EQUAL ACCESS UNDER THE LAW Is that good enough for you. I DO NOTuse this as a crutch... but you are asking if my constitutional rights were being challanged... all the non-handicapped folks could use their cameras up where they said that I couldn't........................... LIFE AND PHOTOGRAPHY ARE DIFFICULT ENOUGH FOR ME... AND I'M NOT A MOANER OR COMPLAINER... JUST DON'T IMPOSE SPECIAL..OUT OF THE BLUE...RULES FOR ME IF YOU DON'T MIND!!!

You weren't there Butch... I'm telling you, this wasn't right!!!

Terry, the example of assigned seating was offered as a sample of restrictions that apply to ticket holders, not specific to your experience. I was merely pointing out that admission price (or even free access to private property) is not a guarantee for photographic access for those attending such an event. Promoters, venue owners or managers and event officials can and do restrict access and photography as they see fit. They also can and do apply it unfairly on a regular basis. It may be offensive to many, but they are well within their right to do so. What happened to you was indeed unfair. I think it was unfair. I too would have been upset. But, I also do not believe it is an erosion of rights. Many concert promoters will not allow ticket holders with a camera lens longer than a dollar bill to enter the venue except for working press and official contracted photographers. At the same time, those with P&S are allowed to enter and shoot at will. Your experience is not that uncommon. Ticket holders, and invited guests, purchase or are granted the privilege to witness the event, not the "right" to record it.

Not looking to stir the pot here, but I shoot for our local track. I made and host the website, help scrape the track, and do what ever else I can for that right. So I am essentially paying for the gig. I would be a little mad if every time we have a special event, here comes some guy that is not paying anything to be there, and he expects to get right beside me. If you don't call and ask (at our track), you won't get inside the fence, and you shouldn't. You can't go to ANY bigtime event of anykind, and shoot from anywhere you want. I understand that you shoot for a race sponsor, and that would get you in at our track, but you should have asked first.

This is getting to be a touchy one I am very familar with this track that Terry was at. Again, this was a Test n Tune fun night with a class of door slammers included in the venue. You DO PAY to enter the track and have free roam as pits are free and open. The track is very liberal as you can see of who stands where or sits if they wish to observe and openly photograph the action.

I think the key point here is simply that Terry was singled out by someone rather than approached by that person, and that person assumed that Terry was there to profit from the show. Either everyone shoots with a camera or no one shoots would be the call. You just can't pick a person out and tell them no, certainly a quality P&S is capable of taking a picture worth selling but no one else was asked to step back to a desinated area. He was singled out for an invalid reason!

I know Terry's interest in cars, I know his devotion and passion to photography, perhaps if they did not allow someone like him to bring a camera then they (the track) would not even receive his entrance fee or benefit from him spending money at the facility on food and other items. I do go to this facility occasionally and if the policy was I couldn't bring my camera at whatever level of equipment I choose than I would most likely not go to the track, I enjoy racing, I enjoy my hobby of photography and should be allowed to take pictures for my own enjoyment.

Do I think that there should be a person sidelining and trying to take business from an identified and assigned Track Photograher, NOPE NO WAY. And I also know that the respect that Terry has for an assigned photographer is such that he would never interfere or try to shadow him for shots, he is well above that. There is I think a big difference in shots being taken with re-selling in mind versus shots being taken in more of a creative photographic way, that is not competing and not interfering.

So does the entrance fee paid give him or I the right to go where ever we want at this track, well in this open Test n Tune event yes it does unless otherwise specified. Key here, they picked the wrong guy for the wrong reason while someone else in the line up was probably scheming a way to take income from the assigned photographer.

Donnie, just remember that you have donated time and labor to be able to shoot and profit from your shooting, and rightfully so, a person who has paid money to enter the track has also paid for the priviledge of being there, and should be allowed to enjoy themself and if that includes taking pictures than so be it. You don't have to ask anything at this track, again this was one person in a large group of people that have the same access and many who also had cameras of all levels.

Am I ssupporting Terry on this issue, yes but it could be any other Terry, Butch, Donnie or Karl out there, that could have been picked out. And if it were me, and no one else were told the same thing that had a camera then I would feel very un-welcomed for another paying visit!

Karl................see we needed another .02 here

The thing terry is talking about is there was no track photographer only section he was shooting where everyone else could shoot if the track photographer has a problem with it he needs to get with track managment and have a track photographer only area put in in a prime location other wise he needs to shut the hell up and shoot his pictures. there is no thing as a pro camera it's the person behind the camera thats the pro don't get mad at me and try to restrict only me because I can afford a better camera than you unlike the other guy next to you. If a track, sports arena or any other place lets any one bring a P&S in to there place they need to let any other camera inthe pro's will just have to make sure the prime spots are set up only for them.

Karl Witt wrote:
I enjoy racing, I enjoy my hobby of photography and should be allowed to take pictures for my own enjoyment.

Do I think that there should be a person sidelining and trying to take business from an identified and assigned Track Photograher, NOPE NO WAY. And I also know that the respect that Terry has for an assigned photographer is such that he would never interfere or try to shadow him for shots, he is well above that.

I'm sorry but do you really think that, in a case where the track has a photographer who is paying for exclusive rights to photograph the event, sees another person has pro gear which could well take away from the income he is entitled to, and has paid for, do you REALLY think that "oh I'm doing it for a hobby, honest guv" is adequate ? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

How do you expect the stewards to tell a hobbyist with a 1D from someone abusing the free access to sell photos on the sly with a 1D ?

I totally agree with you that it was handled very badly, but I really fail to see how you expect the stewards to read minds and be able to tell who genuinely is doing it for fun and who isn't.

Most places i know that have staff photographers have set up special places only staff photogs can go or no one is allowed to bring camera's in the event except for staff photogs. as long as the people with cameras ain't breaking the event rules the staff photogs can just shut the hell up! it doesn't matter if the person is just a hobiest or selling the photo's.

IMHO any place where the general public can pay to go like sports arena's race tracks etc. are public areas and the rules of public photography should apply unless openly posted at the gate what you can or can not do!.

Chris
First of all who said the guy at the track was paying for exclusive rights? And if you read the story this had nothing to do with a stewart approaching Terry, he was the delivery boy from the photographer who singled Terry out.

Chris, this is a very different event than what you think, Test n Tune is a non-proffessional event where locals pay $10 to have access to run down the track for fun, there is no money involved to win, there are no trophies, it is simply an open night to have fun, grudge match if you will. Those that pay to get in pay for entrance, this entrance allows them free roam of the track, pits are open to all and at will photography. I assure you, that there were other people there with quality DSLR's that were asked to move.

Chris, you off base on this because you are uniformed of the track situation on these Test and Tune open nights. I really don't need a silly link to Wikipedia either to understand your point. I believe unless stated, I have the right to photograph anything I want at this event unless track rules state otherwise, remember Chris, I paid to to be here! I paid to be there so I could take pictures, If I can't take pictures I won't pay to be there.

You are correct in stating that a photograher or stewart does not know anyones exact intent with a camera, but you CAN"T single one person out, that is unfair. Either we all take pictures or we all don't, not just some people can't that is being biased and prejudiced........wrong!

By the way, I attended the Dale Jarrett Racing School in Atlanta Georgia as a driver, there was an assigned photographer who was doing an excellent job taking shots of me as I entered the car and on the track, there were many professional looking cameras that the spectators had brought to shoot pictures of their friends, myself included. By the way, I paid good money to the 'track' photographer for my shots and I did not see him intimadated by the other people shooting pictures either.

Back to the point, you just can't single one person out because he/she has equipment that is considered professional, gosh, I know lots of people with this gear that take horrible pictures!

I really hope you understand my point this time, I do believe Chris that you and I and Terry have the utmost respect for photographers making money at any event.

Thanks..........Karl

Wow, interesting thread.
Unless I'm mistaken this was a for-fun event at a private track. The track photog sent security to hassle Terry about shooting.

Although I agree with Terry that their attitude sucked in terms of telling him that he can't shoot while everyone else could, unless they'res discriminating against him for race/religion/disability/etc the track owner has a right to refuse service.

I believe unless stated, I have the right to photograph anything I want at this event unless track rules state otherwise, remember Chris, I paid to to be here! I paid to be there so I could take pictures, If I can't take pictures I won't pay to be there.

If there are no rules posted then you can (but shouldn't) assume you can take photos. Just because you paid to be there gives you no additional rights unless they were spelled out that "buying ticket = allowed to photograph".

but you CAN"T single one person out, that is unfair. Either we all take pictures or we all don't, not just some people can't that is being biased and prejudiced........wrong!

Not even close to true, ever heard that "Life is unfair"? Because it is, the right to refuse service/access/etc lies with the property owner/event manager/etc. would it be fair to tell 1 person to leave and not others? No, but is it illegal? Doubtful without some significant evidence of discrimination.

I'm all for photographers rights and I can't stand to see people back down when they're in the right, but as much as I feel bad for Terry they could have made him leave without an explanation. I'm glad he stood up for himself and was allowed to keep shooting since that seems to be the right thing to do, but people need to remember not to confuse your shooting rights in a public place like a sidewalk vs. shooting on private property or at an event.

I totally agree that you can't single one person out, but I'm afraid that with an L lens and pro-spec D-SLR (and I'm not saying that's what you said, purely hypothetical example) firstly you stand out like a sore thumb, and secondly, you're more likely to get the money shot (AI servo etc etc)

If I misunderstood the situation you have my whole hearted apologies, I'm a big fan of cricket myself, and if I was told to put my 40D/70-200L away on a practice day I'd be pretty pissed off myself, and likely whinge about it for weeks to come, but I think in the back of my mind I'd understand, because I've contributed my fair share to the "Uncle Bob" threads over on the wedding forum, it's such a delicate situation at the moment between established pros, extremely talented amateurs, and those who will sell 6x4 prints at $1 for the ego boost of "making a sale"

I really don't want to stir up any cans of worms or insult anyone here, and to Terry I'm just as insulted as you at the lack of courtesy shown to you, I'm merely trying to play Devil's Advocate.

Terry D wrote:
Guys...point and shoots are now 10 to12 megapxls and 300 + mm ... who's abusing who here? Some of you guys seem to take this in stride... like its no big deal IMO it is a BIG DEAL.

You may recall a few years back... there was a country that was the land of the free... I think it was call America ....whoops, where'd she go


IF I were a terrorist, I would certainly not walk around with a big DSLR and canon L lens. I would buy a good small P&S. It would give adequate picture quality and draw far less attention. If people are going to try and identify terrorists, they need to try and think like one too.

I'm with you on this one Terry. It just aggravates me that I can be standing in a crowd of dozens of 12mp P&S cameras with my D2X and 70-200 and I'm singled out as the ONE person that can't shoot simply because of my gear and for no other reason.

I've been the event photographer on the sidelines with the 'competition' shooting alongside me (youth sports) so I understand that perspective. I usually ask them who they are shooting and then I don't waste my time shooting their kids. I give them my card though and have subsequently been asked by more than a few of them to shoot their kids at the next game. But I've never asked that they be removed, I just outshoot them