My business is starting to get going now, and I want to upgrade from my 5D. I love my lenses and I am not sure if I want to switch to a meduim format system, so would the 1ds be high enough quality for most commercial work, or would I just go with a mamiya or hassleblad system to be safe?

I think you should get my Hasselblad system.

It does depend on the lenses that you have, the 1DsIII is somewhat relentless on lens quality and how much you have invested...

While the 1 ds3 has many build features lacking in the 5d, you won't notice much of a difference between the 1ds3 and the 5d in terms of overall IQ. Unless you're one of those Pixel Peepers who goes over every square inch at 200% looking for problems, you'll find that while there is a very modest difference in large blow-ups - there's not enough there for the average person to observe a noticeable difference.

Now, depending on lenses and the digital back, you're going find a pleasant upgrade with medium format. Not a huge impact, but a lot of subtle distinctions in color, detail and the 3-d effect, which added together make for a very sweet image. If you're used to only working with dslr's be prepared for some disappointments in terms of usability. MF camera's are slower, clunky, not easy for travel, sometimes have auto focus issues and overall are much less intuitive in your hands. They're also very expensive. We're going through a major transition right now where technology is boosting the capabilities of digital backs. It would be prudent to wait a little bit as the current products will see a reduction in price and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Just do a search here and on luminous landscape... you'll find plenty of pros and cons.

Once those 50mp & 60mp backs hit later this year, the others will drop even more than are doing right now.

I'll probably step into a hassy h1 with a leaf or phase back.

the question to ask probably is, what is your reason for wanting to upgrade? What is it that the 5d does not give you? What is it that you are shooting, and how much resolution do you really need? Do you need the additional features of the 1Ds3, do you need the extra resolution of the medium format?

Edited by Daniel Buck on Jul 18, 2008 at 11:55 AM GMT

Byron1000 wrote:
My business is starting to get going now, and I want to upgrade from my 5D. I love my lenses and I am not sure if I want to switch to a meduim format system, so would the 1ds be high enough quality for most commercial work, or would I just go with a mamiya or hassleblad system to be safe?

Why do you want to upgrade from your 5D?

If it is about IQ... Well, the 1Ds3 gives only a marginal improvement over the 5D. Although the 1Ds3 files do need less PP, but can take a lot more PP than 5D files. But in the end, I think digital medium format will give you a larger improvement on IQ than a 1Ds3.

If it is about features such as AF, Live View, metering, etc... In that case the 1Ds3 will be a better camera than the 5D. The 1Ds3 will also be faster and more intuitive than digital medium format. Which system is the most suitable really depends on your shooting style.


Edited by Daan B on Jul 18, 2008 at 06:51 PM GMT

Deezie wrote:
While the 1 ds3 has many build features lacking in the 5d, you won't notice much of a difference between the 1ds3 and the 5d in terms of overall IQ. Unless you're one of those Pixel Peepers who goes over every square inch at 200% looking for problems, you'll find that while there is a very modest difference in large blow-ups - there's not enough there for the average person to observe a noticeable difference.


I would suggest that with either camera we are not talking about the needs of the "average person". I would say that the same potential difference holds for the 5D compared with a 40D. The difference might not be noticeable to the average person.


Deezie wrote:
Now, depending on lenses and the digital back, you're going find a pleasant upgrade with medium format. Not a huge impact, but a lot of subtle distinctions in color, detail and the 3-d effect, which added together make for a very sweet image. If you're used to only working with dslr's be prepared for some disappointments in terms of usability. MF camera's are slower, clunky, not easy for travel, sometimes have auto focus issues and overall are much less intuitive in your hands. They're also very expensive. We're going through a major transition right now where technology is boosting the capabilities of digital backs. It would be prudent to wait a little bit as the current products will see a reduction in price and you'll get more bang for your buck.


Yes, and these subtle differences do add up, and are noticeable to anyone with a discerning eye. But there are definitely diminishing returns involved. Each percent improvement gets increasingly expensive as you move up the quality-price curve. That 5%or so improvement over the 1DsIII costs $10,000 -- and the next 5% is probably $20,000. For some users and client that extra 5% is all-important, they are, however, just not your average Joe.

Maybe you should read John's comments on the MF and 1DsII on his site :
www.pebbleplace.com
It is a nice reading and could give you some hints about what you should expect.

Deezie wrote:
While the 1 ds3 has many build features lacking in the 5d, you won't notice much of a difference between the 1ds3 and the 5d in terms of overall IQ. .

Agreed, it will be one notch up in resolution, focus speed but heavier and slower to process files. Overall more of a small step than a leap.

Get medium format if you want larger viewfinder, WLF and other options, fast flash sync, more dynamic range, more beautiful colours and transitions, ability to use back on view camera, easy sensor cleaning, etc.

Get Canon if you need faster frame rate, if you need snappier autofocus, and higher ISO.

You will notice a much larger step-up in resolution, clarity going to an entry-level MFDB kit than from the 5D to 1Ds3.

With used (as one example) 503CWD kits going for roughly $9K vs the price of a new 1Ds3 (which may also require you buy new premium glass anyway to get the most from the sensor), the $$/perceived IQ improvements would favor MF. Same would apply to entry Phase/mamiya kits, refurbs, etc. Prices on entry level kits have dropped significantly and more used lower-MP (16-21+ MP) gear is on market as players announce new higher-density backs and people trade up.

That said, it's all about trade-offs (AF, ISO capabilities, learning curve vs incredible file detail, DR, tonality). Phase dealer Capture Integration out of Atlanta has a number of test shots comparing various Phase backs to the 1DS3. The differences in detail captured, even with lower MP backs, are startling.

What the hell, do your homework, look for a good clean used/refurb kit and go for it. You can always move back to a DSLR (or add one as backup) later if so desired.

On the flip side, if you want a step up in IQ with minimal $$, I'd go for a clean used 1Ds2 instead - or invest in some adapters and premium alternate glass for your 5D.

Looking at you great work on your website I dont see in why you should go for a MFDB. Most photographs have a touch of reportage and available light looks very important to you.

Beauty, landscape and packshots may require DB, however shooting at higher ISO you will loose most benefits of a MFDB.

First of all, thanks everyone for all your help. I love my 5d, and whatever happens, I will keep it and most of my lenses. I don't have too much invested in glass, just a handful of canon primes, and a Leica 80 1.4 that I use for portraits. I am not a pixel peeper, however I want my work to very high quality and I really noticed the difference when I went with the 5d over my d200. I launched my business, Byron Fry Photo, a few months ago and am now gaining some larger contracts and considering taking a loan out to fund a MFBD because I anticipate needing the higher quality in the near future. I have only ever used SLR's and Rangefinders, so the jump to MF is going to really fuck with my way of shooting, but I am sure I will learn eventually. If I was to get a meduim format, I would probably be looking only to spend around 15 000. I would be looking for one wicked portrait and fashion lensethat is close to what 80mm is on 35mm, and then something nominally wide, around what a 35mm would be on 35mm, I also don't mind manual focus, however I would enjoy having it on my portrait lens I think, although I don't have it now so I don't know if I would really need it. Thanks for the tips on a refurbished or used one, that is what I will probably end up buying, but if anyone has some quick recommendations on what I should look for system wise, that would be great.

Take a look at the Hassy 503CWD - easily available used under $10K w/the 80mm. You can also look at mounting the Hassy CFV I or II back on a 500-series(very inexpensive used) or rarer 200 series (more costly) body . There are also some nice lower-MP Phase backs that mount readily on a Mamiya AFDII, Hassy V or the new Phase/Mamiya AFDIII kits as well. There are also some nice inexpensive Contax 645 Kits ($1800 with film back and 80mm/2) that can take a number of different backs.

Having used the 80 lux - a GREAT MF portrait lens (for the Mamiya or Contax with an adapter in stop-down mode, on a Hassy 200 series - or on your 5D for that matter) is the Hassy 110/2. Another is the Mamiya 150/3.5 Some great web sites to check as well are: luminous landscape, www.getdpi.com and www.hasselbladinfo.com (NOT a factory site).

Anyone have any feedback on the h1?

As an aside - New Hassy 503 CWD II w/40mm F4 FLE lens upgrade kit - under $13,000 (Kurland Photo amongst others). Add in a longer lens from KEH - say the 100/3.5 and your under $15,000 out the door.

Rather than the Hasselblad and highly cropped square sensor, I would recommend a larger rectangular 22 megapixel sensor such as Sinar e54LV or Phase One P25. You can get these backs refurbished with warranty for a little over $10K. Then you could add a body like a Rollei 6008AF, Hy6, Hasselblad H, or Mamiya 645 (all still current systems), and an 80mm lens and get going for around $14K.

Even the 6008AF, which you can get for under €1K, includes built-in metering (not in the prism), options of viewfinders, auto exposure modes, auto focus (and focus confirmation for manual lenses), programmability, better lenses than the Hass V, etc.

Thankfully, prices for entry systems (new and used) have REALLY come down, so your options are better than ever at the moment.

I'm thinking of an H1 + a leaf or phase back.

I would pick up the zoom and the HC 120 macro.


I'm really looking at the 28-33mp range in backs.

I demo'd the afi last winter, I think it's a great camera, but little expensive at the moment compared to other options out there.

I'm currently in the process of switching my lighting over to broncolor, so price is the deciding factor.

I agree with Andi, some nice photos, but what you are showing currently doesn't really look like it will lend itself well for MF... and "quality" has a lot of implications... like are you able to get those semi-candid shots... also, what size output? Are people putting your work on billboards? No way would I give up a DSRL for what you are currently doing... percieved quality will be more about light and composition.

My stuff might end up on billboards, that is the big issue, I want a camera that if a job comes around that I need the quality, then I have no worries at all, and I don't plan on buying a camera until those type of jobs come around, I just want to be ready when they do. How far can work from a 1ds3 be used? If it had the quality to be put on a billboard, then I might use it. I am a little at odds with myself here.

The differences between these platforms goes so much further than just resolution. I would find a local medium format digital user or dealer and spend some time with the camera to see what it's all about.