I got a Canon 10D for astrophotography just in time for it to get cold (Minnesota weather you know) and constantly cloudy. So, rather than hang my head in defeat I decided to turn it Earthbound. I've now taken a couple hundred photos and realize I have very little artistic talent. But again, rather than slink away, I'm taking on the challenge.

With the 10D I got a 28-105mm F4/5.6 lens (http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=9). Research has shown me that this lens is probably one of the worst I could get. One of my questions, is this lens good enough for me to get started? Or should I invest in a higher quality lens. If the later, what would your recommendation be? High quality prime? Good walking around zoom?

As a follow-up, what would a recommendation be for a good book on the basics of photography. Possibly something aimed at the digital world.

Thanks in advance!

Lowest price with high-quality optics would be the Canon 50mm f/1.8. It's plastic and feels like you don't have a lens on the camera. The autofocus is not fast but it is kinda noisy so you know it's working. It can be used to take really nice pictures and is a good tool to learn on. Get a lot of practice with this lens on your camera and along the way take note of what you can't do with it.

That should help you pick out your next lens.

Equipment isn't your problem yet. Forget about buying any gear until you know what you're doing. The camera/lens combination you have is good enough.

If you have no artistic talent, as you say, you should simply start from the beginning. You might surprise yourself. Get yourself a book about basic photography and start with things like the rule of thirds, the basics of correct and creative exposure and the art of playing off shutter speed/aperture/ISO rating to get what you want or need. There are plenty of books about photography, including ones which are aimed mainly at digital.

You should also endeavour to see the work of as many great photographers as you can to find out what you like and how they see the world.

Shoot as many pictures as you can and practice, practice, practice.

You have done the wisest thing and acknowledged that you need to learn. Practice is the best remedy.

1) don't buy any more gear
2) read a couple simple technical books on photographic principles
3) don't be hard on yourself and expect to be an "artist" right away
4) photograph what interests you, not what you think you should photograph
5) read some books on technique in your area of interest
6) experiment
7) don't look at forums like this and expect to shoot images like those right away

Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure.

Half priced books are good places for stocking up on photo books.

Local camera clubs are also a good place to learn.

Have fun man and remember it takes time and practice to get a good feel for everything!

J.D. wrote:
Equipment isn't your problem yet. Forget about buying any gear until you know what you're doing. The camera/lens combination you have is good enough.

If you have no artistic talent, as you say, you should simply start from the beginning. You might surprise yourself. Get yourself a book about basic photography and start with things like the rule of thirds, the basics of correct and creative exposure and the art of playing off shutter speed/aperture/ISO rating to get what you want or need. There are plenty of books about photography, including ones which are aimed mainly at digital.

You should also endeavour to see the work of as many great photographers as you can to find out what you like and how they see the world.

Shoot as many pictures as you can and practice, practice, practice.

You have done the wisest thing and acknowledged that you need to learn. Practice is the best remedy.

X2

Good advice in that post. Also, if you can still find it, get the Kodak Guide to 35mm Photography. I know, I know, you have a DIGITAL camera. But pictures are pictures, and they'll look good regardless of your medium.

Unless you are a rather unusual crop sensor DSLR photographer, you will likely want something wider than your current lens. 28mm is not really a wide angle lens at all on your camera.

Most photographers would want something that would get them into the sub-20mm range on this camera. A very inexpensive option is to get a used copy of the 18-55mm kit lens. It is OK optically, and you can probably pick one up for $75 or so. It is a fine learning lens.

Skip the 50mm prime at this point unless your main interest is short telephoto or portrait photography. On our camera it is not a traditional "normal" focal length. Yes, it is optically quite decent. Yes, it is inexpensive. NO, it is the wrong lens for most people in your situation.

Dan

Ditto what monochrome says. Bryan Peterson is awesome.

Food for thought: Henri Cartier-Bresson spent most of his distinguished career shooting with a 50mm...

@FSJ_Guy: I have that book too. Chalk it up as a recommendation.

What JD said is great advice.

John Freeman's 'The Photographers Guide' series are well worth a look too. There are books on exposure, composition, b+w, etc., Practice doesn't cost you anything so get out there to shoot. The 'Photo Critique' forum is pretty useful too and you can field many suggestions about what you could have improved in a picture. Most of all enjoy your photography!

Another vote for Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure.

Adam.

bring your camera everywhere you go & shoot shoot shoot shoot away


did i mention shoot?

trial & error.

you'll teach yourself how to adjust the settings

Another vote overthere for Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure.
And yeah go out there and start shooting. Shoot in all kinds of light to understand how to work with light.
Try composing your shots in the street.
Practice is everything.

J.D. wrote:
Food for thought: Henri Cartier-Bresson spent most of his distinguished career shooting with a 50mm...


He wasn't shooting on a crop camera. He probably would have chosen a 28-35mm prime for a crop camera.

That's not the point...

Cartier-Bresson used a Leica with a 50mm lens and very occasionally, a wide angle.

The point is, he made great photographs with far less sophisticated equipment than what most of us own, irrespective of quality. To my way of thinking, the mark of a great photographer, or anyone else for that matter, is what they do with what they have available to them. Cartier Bresson was great.

The point is that beginner photographers shouldn't get all wet about what they haven't got. Throwing money around will not make anyone a great photographer. What the OP needs is practice and plenty of it.

leadZERO wrote:
As a follow-up, what would a recommendation be for a good book on the basics of photography. Possibly something aimed at the digital world.


My favorite books on photography are by Andreas Feininger, written in the 1950's!

You can probably get more useful information about the digital aspect of photography from books on post processing. Which brings me to my advice for you.

Fisrt don't be disappointed with your shots straight from the camera. You would be surprised how many shots even the best photographers throw away. I think most of the time it is not because of exposure but because of composition or something else.

Secondly, get a post processing program. Photoshop elements is a good starter. It will vastly improve your keeper rate. The adjustments you make with photoshop have always been taking place. We just didn't see the process (unless you have your own darkroom) because the film lab did it for us.

Taking the picture is about half the process of getting a good photograph. "Developing" it in post processing is the other half.


Marty

There's been a lot of good info here.

Over the years I have recommended the books by Freeman Paterson to those starting out. I assume they sell on Amazon.com.

Some camera stores and community colleges have beginning digital/film courses.

Once you learn the fundamentals you may be in a better position to determine what lens characteristics, i.e., focal length, maximum aperture, bokeh, number of diaphragm blades, IS, etc., etc., that you like.

Any suggestion given here is just what other more experienced shooters like...sort of like Ortiz telling a Little Leaguer what bat to use. Give yourself time. Be aware that not all the EF-S lenses will mount on the 10D, so do your homework.

Learn to decipher the Histogram it can be your best learning tool.

Examine your subject from many angles, sides and elevations...look for a different way of seeing things.

Get closer...then get closer still...then really get close. You will see the difference in your shots as you progress.

Contrary to what you hear here...you may not find ultra wide as exciting as others. Or telephoto might not be your thing.

Your goal is to find out what you really like shooting then concentrate on what makes it better.

Some of the best pictures in the history of photography have been taken with equipment that is close to junk...but the shooter had a great eye for composition, knew the limits of his gear and its strong points and did the best they could with what they had to work with. A mega-buck dSLR is just another tool that makes it easier...but it doesn't replace the eye of the one pressing the release.

Good luck...it is fun ...enjoy the journey,

Joe Sesto
Nipomo, California

J.D. wrote:
That's not the point...

Cartier-Bresson used a Leica with a 50mm lens and very occasionally, a wide angle.


I agree with you entirely on the whole 'it's not the equipment' thing. Great photographers can make spectacular images with next to nothing. Poor photographers can have the best gear on earth and their photos will lack inspiration and sound composition.

There was some earlier discussion on buying the 50mm, and it was brought up that it's too long for the average person to use as a single lens when starting out...you brought up Cartier-Bresson with the 50mm, and I thought it was a continuance. However, C-B used a 50mm as a normal lens, which adds nothing to the 'get a 50mm' slant, since it's a short telephoto. It would be a 'get a 28mm' post.

As to the not worrying about gear when starting out? I wholeheartedly agree. I started with one zoom and the 50mm for portraits, and I added gear when I wanted shots I couldn't get with my current kit...it's continued until now. The truth is you can't know what you want to shoot right away. When I started, I had no idea what my real passion would end up being....It turns out I like to shoot a lot of different things, but mostly architecture, the occassional landscape, macro, and indoor candid shots at events and stage performances (thus all the fast lenses and primes in my bag).

Until you know what you like to shoot, it's hard to get anything, so starting with the kit lens is good as you find out whether you like wide angle, normal or telephoto photography. Do you need fast apertures or not? Etc... The only way to get there is to shoot, shoot, shoot. You may find, for your photography style, you may not ever need another lens!

And has been mentioned...far more important than your kit is developing your eye for unique and special composition. It's an ongoing process that never ends, but it's what makes great photographs.


Edited by Jman13 on Nov 07, 2007 at 07:19 AM GMT

Okay, I get your point but the OP already has that FL covered. I guess it is a little bit confusing for a beginner.

Perhaps I should have said "a standard lens" as opposed to a wide angle.

Hi,

I think you have gotten a lot of good advice, but I will add a bit more about lenses. The 18-55mm kit lens is a good place to start, but not with a 10D. It won't fit on your camera. Instead I would get three inexpensive lenses to start. A Tokina 19-35mm f/3.5-4.5, a Canon 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5 MKII, and a 50mm f/1.8. Together these will cost less that $300 and give you some decent lenses to start. A good place to look for such lenses is by taking out a Want to Buy add on the Buy and Sell forum. You can also look at www.keh.com, www.adorama.com, and www.bhphoto.com. These are all decent retailers with good stocks of used lenses for sale. I hope this helps.

I'm a total beginner as well. What I found helped me is to bring a notepad with you and shoot in manual while taking notes of your settings. You'll quickly learn what different settings do to the image. It takes longer but you get more "quality" learning expeience rather than quantity. (still try to shoot a ton of shots tho)

Another thing is to bring your camera with you as much as possible. Great photo ops are everywhere. (I have been seen taking pictures in the produce section of the supermarket while my wife spends 15 minutes deciding between 2 brands of chicken stock)

I totally agree with "you really don't need super fancy equipment" but it sure is tempting! (I really don't "need" a Porsche but if I won the lottery, guess where I'm driving the Toyota?)

With digital, we get the advantage of reviewing our image immediately with no additional cost. I give major props to the people that learned with film!

Even with this advantage, I still have a lot to learn.

Good luck and have fun!

I'm not sure why people always seem to make the 50 and normal assumption when the 50 is suggested. Simply put, the 50f1.8 is probably the best $76 lens purchase on the planet and opens up a lot of low light/portrait shooting options. For all intents and purposes the prime it could be a 28mm, it really could be anything.
The point is that while learning, start with a prime, any prime (the 50f1.8 is cheap and optically good that's why it's recommended often for beginners). Start to shoot stationary objects, statues, works of art. Shoot them from 17 different angles. Take your time, think about what you are trying to create and how the camera adjustments you are making will impact your final photo. Learn how to shoot something stationary before trying moving targets or kids...
After you have done your shooting, take time to review each and every photo. Don't delete anything while you're shooting. You can learn a lot from a bad photo. Pull up the exif data and look at your settings at the time of capture. Have someone else who knows a little about photography also look at your work and ask them to be brutally honest. Critisism is tough to hear at times, but if it is constructive it can really help us grow. The last point and most important is not to be afraid of making mistakes. Nobody died from taking a bad photo...

Wow, thanks for all the advice. I guess I will hold off on more equipment. And I think I definitely need to run and get a copy of the book recommended 20 times over.

As for shooting a lot, I have been. When I started I had no idea about depth of field or how to control it. I now understand how it works and why (more of a math person, so the equations made the most sense to me). But I still couldn't choose it on the spot without having a printed chart. (Which was one reason I wondered if a prime might be easier to learn on, one focal length to have printed.)

I'm also learning about exposure. I'm an electronics hobbyist so I built a shutter trigger to do long exposures in bulb mode. Last night I kept getting zapped by static electricity so I decided to try and photograph it. I got some decent shots, but nothing worth writing home about.

Again, thanks for all the advice.

george malamis wrote:
I'm not sure why people always seem to make the 50 and normal assumption when the 50 is suggested. Simply put, the 50f1.8 is probably the best $76 lens purchase on the planet and opens up a lot of low light/portrait shooting options. For all intents and purposes the prime it could be a 28mm, it really could be anything.
The point is that while learning, start with a prime, any prime (the 50f1.8 is cheap and optically good that's why it's recommended often for beginners). Start to shoot stationary objects, statues, works of art. Shoot them from 17 different angles. Take your time, think about what you are trying to create and how the camera adjustments you are making will impact your final photo. Learn how to shoot something stationary before trying moving targets or kids...
After you have done your shooting, take time to review each and every photo. Don't delete anything while you're shooting. You can learn a lot from a bad photo. Pull up the exif data and look at your settings at the time of capture. Have someone else who knows a little about photography also look at your work and ask them to be brutally honest. Critisism is tough to hear at times, but if it is constructive it can really help us grow. The last point and most important is not to be afraid of making mistakes. Nobody died from taking a bad photo...
AMEN!!! Add me in for another vote for the 50. Shooting with a single prime focuses the attention on the elements of the composition. If you want to learn the most and learn most quickly, read the book - but even more important, follow the advice above, think about what you are shooting and shoot and shoot and shoot. - good luck.