I'm considering picking up a small point and shoot camera to have with me for my general wanderings around NYC. I don't carry my rebel all the time (on the way to work and back, etc), but I'd like to have something that I can take with me on those occasions. Preferably something with a bit of a personality...a "digital holga" (yes, I know this doesn't exist) would be ideal.

So what would be closest? Can anyone recommend something? I read about the Ricoh GR Digital recently and it seemed to fit the bill pretty nicely, but that made me wonder about other

Edited by munckee on Jul 16, 2007 at 01:34 PM GMT (Reason: realized title wasn't so good)

Sorry bout the double post.

"P&S with...personality?" No, rather just another hyped P&S with a lot of noise.
The GR Digital is a just huge, overpriced, disappointment.

Lotusm50 wrote:
"P&S with...personality?" No, rather just another hyped P&S with a lot of noise.
The GR Digital is a just huge, overpriced, disappointment.

Ok...could you recommend something that might be better suited

The GR-D is the only compact ever with a fixed focal length, that lets you use an optical viewfinder. It's the cheapest option except for the unreliable, but extremely well designed epson R-D1. If you're coming from a film rangefinder and you're used to shooting high ISO B&W film, it's a good way to switch to digital without changing the way you shoot much. It lets you set focus to hyperfocal so there's minimal shutter lag, and it doesn't really look like a digital camera.

Can you tell I want one? The only thing holding me back is the possibility of the Sigma DP1 being released the day after I buy it... not that it wouldn't keep making the same images, but the DP1's sensor would make it a lot better suited to my uses (it's my street/abstract shots that I usually print biggest). I'll stick with film for the time being.

Thanks Jon. Sounds like you're pretty psyched about it!

I do wish the GR had a built-in viewfinder. Somehow an extra $200 for something that makes it less compact is annoying. What's the scoop on the Sigma? I haven't been reading up lately; have to try to track it down on their site.

I'm not coming from a rangefinder, I just want a point and shoot with some decent manual control and some more personality than your standard canon/casio/pentax whatever. I really like the dual wheel control on the GR (heck, even my rebel doesn't have that).

Check out the Ricoh GX100.

Martin

Jon Buder wrote:
The GR-D is the only compact ever with a fixed focal length, that lets you use an optical viewfinder.



Nope. This Sony has a 5mm f2.8 prime and a viewfinder.

I'm sure there would be others.

Oh yeah, here is an image from the Sony.

Mine is extremely beaten up (been dropped heaps and based about) and now it is a bit soft down one side unfortunately.

I said viewfinder, not little glass tunnel in the back that shows you what the camera sees (but with a 20-50% margin of error)

Same thing on the GR-D.

Personality? I doubt you'll find that. Digital is all about mass production and mainstream. I have a couple of friends who bought the Nikon P5000 though. They seem to be extremely happy with what it can do, and it's very tiny, in spite of having most of the manual operations easily available.

Personally, I prefer the Canon A640. It's a bit more bulky, but it's a very practical camera (foldable LCD-screen, AA batteries etc.).

Both have optical viewfinder, quite usable according to me, but don't expect wonders.

Ever considered film? A Bessa with one or two primes is a nice alternative too.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Personality? I doubt you'll find that.
Ever considered film? A Bessa with one or two primes is a nice alternative too.

There's got to be something out there that's a bit more interesting than the standard P&S In some way or another. Or maybe I'm asking too much. Or expecting too much from the camera and not enough from myself.

I'm not in a rush to go to film. If that were the case, I'd just grab a holga and be done with it (granted, not so compact, but...). But the reality is that I'll never bother to develop the film myself, so now you're talking about developing costs, waiting, film costs, etc. I'm happier shooting digital for the time being.

munckee wrote:
Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Personality? I doubt you'll find that.
Ever considered film? A Bessa with one or two primes is a nice alternative too.

There's got to be something out there that's a bit more interesting than the standard P&S In some way or another. Or maybe I'm asking too much. Or expecting too much from the camera and not enough from myself.


If I want quality in a nice compact P&S format, I go to a film compact (Contax T2, Ricoh GR1s -- there are also others that are suitable). That's really the only option if you want real quality from a P&S. Some digital P&S's will look OK as a downsized jpeg on a webpage, but that's as far as it goes. (And if that is all you need, then you have choose among many). I'm still waiting for the industry to get their act together and produce a real quality P&S, rather than spending all their effort on hyping models that don't really cut it. The Sigma DP-1 suggests a glimmer of hope, but that camera is still (after all this time) vapourware.

To be honest, I don't think it will happen. There were some interesting cameras available, like the Olympus 7070, Minolta A2 and the Canon G-series. They were not very small, but reasonably compact. Now, they are replaced by compact DSLRs with plastic zoom lenses.

If the Sigma isn't released, or if it's a commercial failure, none of the big players are likely to take up the challenge. Right now, they all seem to move in the opposite direction. Just look at the P5000 and the G7, and compare them to what was launched by Nikon and Canon a couple of years ago. The only hope will be if the technology becomes available enough for smaller players to launch niche products.

Cosina would without doubt be able to come up with a digital something, but the rumour is that Mr. K isn't very enthusiastic about the idea. They are probably too busy making lenses and film bodies anyway.

There's another thread around here about the E-410. If the camera doesn't need to be pocketable (except for very large pockets), that is not a bad alternative, but really compact it is not.

The Ricoh gx100 is interesting, at iso 100 the resolution looks like 8 megapixels or so though it drops to about 5-6 at iso 400 (I downloaded some RAW files from it). I'm also bemoaning the fact that you still can't get a digital compact that comes close to a good iso 400 film. I really don't want to have to go back to 35mm film (don't mind MF, LF) but I might be forced to for a good compact.

I'm going to be starting a project in the middle east soon with a PJ friend of mine whose work is weekly in the Independant/Guardian (UK broadsheets), we both need a pocket camera for areas where an SLR or even rangefinder would be a problem, where we need to be invisible to people very wary of being photographed. Where I'm going to be needing quality I'll be using a TLR, the WLF is a big help with that kind of photography, most people don't even realise your photographing, but we need something better than the current crop of digi p&s's.

Beni wrote:
I'm going to be starting a project in the middle east soon with a PJ friend of mine whose work is weekly in the Independant/Guardian (UK broadsheets), we both need a pocket camera for areas where an SLR or even rangefinder would be a problem, where we need to be invisible to people very wary of being photographed. Where I'm going to be needing quality I'll be using a TLR, the WLF is a big help with that kind of photography, most people don't even realise your photographing, but we need something better than the current crop of digi p&s's.

This sound like rangefinder territory to me, but there are alternatives. I often use a Canon A95 for work like that. The articulated LCD makes it very flexible with regards to shooting angle, and being an amateur camera, it doesn't draw much attention. The model has been replaced twice, most recently by the 10mp A640. It uses AAs, which means you can get batteries anywhere. Another option would be the E-410 with the 11-22 lens, shooting "blind" and cropping. I do that too, although with the E-1. The Olympus DSLRs are very quiet, although not as quiet as the A640, which can be absolutely silent.

Wow. I guess the pickin's are slim.

So do you guys carry a P&S (w/wo "personality)? If so, which one?

Yup, pickins are slim. I have been looking for exactly the same as you and have been pinning my hopes on the Sigma whose only weakness (aside from not being released!) is the f4 lens. The next best alternative I was thinking was the Olympus e-410 but since there are no pancake lenses that will work with it and have autofocus it kinda gets killed as a 'small' alternative as soon as you put a 2+ inch lens on the front. A Pentax style 21mm f3.5 pancake lens made by Olympus to work with the e-410 would get me really into that combo....alas, no go there.

From these forums and others I really think there is a market for a great quality point n shoot. Unfortunately thus far no one has taken it up (well Sigma but we can't buy it).

The Ricoh gx100 was about as close to an interesting alternative I could find myself.....I am still waiting however and hoping for the Sigma to come along as i don't need the pns until September when I will effectively be without any camera.

yellowducky wrote:
The next best alternative I was thinking was the Olympus e-410 but since there are no pancake lenses that will work with it and have autofocus it kinda gets killed as a 'small' alternative as soon as you put a 2+ inch lens on the front. A Pentax style 21mm f3.5 pancake lens made by Olympus to work with the e-410 would get me really into that combo....alas, no go there.


This is exactly one of the points I was making in another thread. Olympus is not fully exploiting the main advantage of the 4/3r'ds system -- SIZE. Olympus thinks that all people want are more zooms in countless variety and that's nearly all they make. Small pancake lenses that fully exploit the size advantage of the systems would be a way for Olympus to sell systems to those looking for a quality compact. These lenses (which are fairly expensive) are important to Pentax's resurgence and they would be equally important to improvements to Olympus' position as it would open up another category of buyers for their camera that is really looking to other options.

I fully agree, a fully functional pancake lens on an e-410 and I would be done. Sure we could then niggle about corner sharpness or wishing for f1.4 or moan about missing a mediocre and much larger zoom or whatever other things we want to dream about. But we would have a full sized sensor, manual controls, raw, decent build quality and most importantly, about the same size or smaller than a G7.

I would happily hand over the 1,250 usd or whatever that worked out to cost (the body here in HK seems a fair amount cheaper than the USA) so fast it would make your head spin. Hello, anyone from Olympus reading this?

I use the GX100 frquently, and I have never noticed a drop in resolution with increased ISO. Incresed noise yes, but quite usable at ISO 200.

The one problem is the slow write of a RAW file (aboout 4.5"). There is a hyperfocal focus setting (Snap) which speeds up the actual shot since there is no focus lag. However, the AF is pretty fast.

Martin

I downloaded two RAW files, one shot at iso 100 the other at iso 400, the iso 400 resolved a lot less fine detail. Doesn't look smeared, just 'lost'.

Get the Nikon Ti 28 or 35 and shoot film. For the same price of the Ricoh, you'll have the best P&S...

and still at the price of a new DSLR, sigh...