johnhopkins wrote:
I feel sure this is correct. The weak-spec of the 30D is almost a sign from Canon that we should skip it and save our pennies for the coming FF revolution.
There is nothing particularly weak about the 30D at that price. There are many claims that it isn't selling well, but does anyone have published figures for it for, say, at least an 8-month interval ? And I don't understand why FF is a "revolution." The long-term trend in image technology from the very beginning has been a reduction in image capture size, of which 35mm film was a significant development back 40(?) years ago, no ? FF seems like a regression in that context.

Yes, I'm still using a 300D, and for most of my needs, it's just fine.... it is getting old, and with 15,000 shots on it, I'm afraid the shutter/mirror could fail at anytime now... I am not a pro, don't sell anything related to photography.... I don't want to buy a 20D or 30D, or even a 400D... ( I briefly owned a 400D and decided it wasn't really much of a upgrade from my 300D, and didn't like the way it exposed things (under exposure))....

When I buy a car, or most anything that cost more then a few hundred $$$... I like to buy it for the long haul, and don't typically like to buy older models if I can help it... I do not really want to buy any of the current Canon cameras, and I don't want the hassle of buying and selling, only to try and upgrade a few months from now, etc...

You can agree or disagree with my logic all you want... this is the way I am, and I can tell you that if Canon came out with a 40D tomorrow, and it had even a few of the new features of the 1DMIII, I would buy it sometime in the next two months if it were available... One feature I'd really like to see in a affordable (sub $1500) is this ability to tweak the AF like is on this newly announced MDIII... faster write speed to memory cards would also be nice... as would many of the other features that are clearly possible with current technology.

Actually the 35 mm film for still cameras is A LOT older development than 40 years ago: "The film format was introduced into still photography as early as 1913 (the Tourist Multiple) but first became popular with the launch of the Leica camera, created by Oskar Barnack in 1925." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film

So depending on which year you choose, it is either 94 or 82 years old development.

There have been very small film formats within the last 40 years, the popular 110 and the even smaller Minox spy camera format. BTW, Adorama has the Minox film spy camera on sale ...

Do that many people actually, deliberately want FF?

I think that a significant number want FF, most of whom now use crop sensor cameras. Witness the number who were willing to pay over $3000 when the 5D came out, the number who have more recently been willing to pay low- to mid-$2000 prices, and the number waiting impatiently for the price to come down a bit more.

For many who haven't made the switch, it isn't that they prefer crop sensor cameras over full frame.* The issue is simply that the cost differential is too great for them still. I have no doubt that if we lived in a world where the cost of full frame and crop sensor cameras was the same we would see full frame predominate quickly. Obviously the prices are not going to be the same, but as the cost comes down for full frame - as it has already done to some extent - more and more people will decide that the cost value equation favors full frame and the number of people switching will continue to increase.

Dan

*I do recognize that there are those with solid reasons for preferring crop sensor bodies, among them being folks doing a lot of work with big telephotos, and folks who really want a smaller camera body. I'm not convinced though that these consititute anything like a majority of the market for DSLR bodies.

JohnnyGCanon wrote:
johnhopkins wrote:
timbop: Without a prosumer crop camera, there will be a $1500 to $2000 jump from the entry level to the 5Dm2. They can't possibly price the existing 5D lower than $2000

I don't doubt there is a market at the 30D price point, that Nikon, Sony, etc. have some attractive offerings there relative to Canon and I do even expect Canon will very likely produce an improvement on the 30D sometime soon. I just doubt that it will ever be a hot seller so long as it remains 1.6x. Peope want a cheap camera (400D) or desire a full-frame camera (5D), a fast camera for sports (1DmkIII) or ultra-high resolution camera (1DsII). Not many people are really attracted to the concept of a 'better' 1.6x crop camera - its a compromise justified on the too-high price of the 5D. The 3x0D/400D/20D cameras have been massive sellers and Canon will tap a vast upgrade market if they can get the economics of FF sensor production right. Until then a lot of people will sit tight shooting with what they have.

That is a well thought out statement about the current position of Canon in the 5D and below market. I agree with timbop totally. He really tells it like it is.

Someone else recently said that Canon's business wasn't pleasing the consumer but their stockholders! While I agree with the stockholder statement, I totally disagree with the idea that Canon shouldn't please us too. After all, the market starts with the consumer. True, we generally stay with a system because of our investment in lenses and other equipment but we don't buy the next body if we're not sold on it's merit.

When I saw that the new Mark III was 1.3X, I thought that was a great compromise between the FF and 1.6X and I still believe it is. However, the camera is more suited to the professional who needs the rapid fire shooting and other fine features it has. It's not generally suited to the photographer who wants a great DSLR but not at the price of $4000.00 or so. Something around $1400 to $2200 would suit me just fine as long as it had the features I want and maybe 1.3X is the feature I want. Maybe FF is what I want but I would have to be convinced of that first. I think I could step down to the 1.3X easier than FF. I love the long lenses and FF is not kind to them.

What I don't want is another warmed over 20D/30D. I want a NEW camera with the features that are important to me. I also don't care what the number on the camera is like 40D or 5D or whatever.

One more thing: the more I read and drool over the Mark III, the more awesome I think the camera is. It is truly a huge breakthrough in camera technology. Too bad it isn't in my price range but one can dream!

I wonder if Canon isn't holding off on the 40D, because they want to see how the 1DMkIII sensor is going to work, in real world application. The 40D may then come out as a 1.3 crop rather then a 1.6 crop, so that the progression is 1.6 -> 1.3 -FF rather then 1..6->1.6->1.3->FF.

I wonder if Canon isn't holding off on the 40D, because they want to see how the 1DMkIII sensor is going to work, in real world application. The 40D may then come out as a 1.3 crop rather then a 1.6 crop, so that the progression is 1.6 -> 1.3 -FF rather then 1..6->1.6->1.3->FF.

I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. It would make sense to me for the 40D to have an APS-H sensor. It would certainly help with DR and IQ to differentiate from the 400D. Economically, full frame does not make sense on a sub $2k camera. But APS-H does. The only fly in the ointment is that APS-H precludes the use of those silly EF-S mount lenses. I wouldn't care, because I don't see them as being a worthwhile investment anyway (and have actively avoided them because for sure at some point I'll be full frame.) My other issue with the EF-S line is that supposedly they are cheaper to manufacture due to the smaller image circle needed, but Canon has not been passing that savings onto the consumer.

My only issue with APS-H is that there is no wide super-wide available for it.

350D/400D w/ Canon 10-22 EFS = 16mm-35mm
5D w/ Canon 16-35 = 16mm-35mm
40D APS-H w/ Canon 16-35 = 20mm-45mm

There are options ...

Sigma has a 12-24 which is reviews I've read scores as well as the Canon 10-22; they also have a 15-30. And then for bigger bucks Canon has a 14L.

I use a 17-40 and find it generally wide-enough altho' there are times when a few less MMs would be a good thing!

Dan

Wow, talk about a quickly dying thread. 50 pages a day at one point, now down to about one or two only one day after the announcement. Wow.

Erik Barzeski wrote:
Wow, talk about a quickly dying thread. 50 pages a day at one point, now down to about one or two only one day after the announcement. Wow.

As you can see here, Canon said the following:

At the UK press event Canon confirmed that "these will be all the new products announced in the run-up to and during PMA, which starts on March 8th"

The thread is called "'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread". I think this Canon statement says it all... no need for further rumours.

I really don't think the 40D is a viable option for Canon right now. The 30D has only been out for just about a year or so. The announcement of a 10MP Rebel did not disuade any 30D buyers. MPs are not the end all be all. The sensor is proven to be a very good sensor and really does not need to be tweaked. If anything, the 30D is probably the end of the road for Canon's mid-priced APS-C sensor line. I forsee Canon upping the ante and moving there mid-line cameras to the 1.3 crop APS-H size sensor or possibly even a full frame sensor similar to that found in the 5D. The price of the 5D has come down significantly enough to prompt 30D buyers to spend the extra cash on a used body. What will happen next is an upgraded 5DN with Dual Digic III processors, faster FPS and burst-rate and a more robust MP @13 million pixels. The new mid-line will be the Elan/7D sporting the 1.3 crop factor or full frame 10MP chip and feature set similar to the 5D. Just some musings on my part. Of course, a new wide angle lens for 1.3 x factor chips has long been a hole in the canon line-up, so a special 14-28 F/4 L will fill in the void.

Lytton wrote:
I really don't think the 40D is a viable option for Canon right now. The 30D has only been out for just about a year or so. The announcement of a 10MP Rebel did not disuade any 30D buyers. MPs are not the end all be all. The sensor is proven to be a very good sensor and really does not need to be tweaked. If anything, the 30D is probably the end of the road for Canon's mid-priced APS-C sensor line. I forsee Canon upping the ante and moving there mid-line cameras to the 1.3 crop APS-H size sensor or possibly even a full frame sensor similar to that found in the 5D. The price of the 5D has come down significantly enough to prompt 30D buyers to spend the extra cash on a used body. What will happen next is an upgraded 5DN with Dual Digic III processors, faster FPS and burst-rate and a more robust MP @13 million pixels. The new mid-line will be the Elan/7D sporting the 1.3 crop factor or full frame 10MP chip and feature set similar to the 5D. Just some musings on my part. Of course, a new wide angle lens for 1.3 x factor chips has long been a hole in the canon line-up, so a special 14-28 F/4 L will fill in the void.

I hope you are correct!! Exactly my thought too....

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 40D sooner than you think.

xstan wrote:
My only issue with APS-H is that there is no wide super-wide available for it.

350D/400D w/ Canon 10-22 EFS = 16mm-35mm
5D w/ Canon 16-35 = 16mm-35mm
40D APS-H w/ Canon 16-35 = 20mm-45mm


There's the sigma 12-24...

Hmmmm.... if they didn't upgrade the 1.6.... I would have to hate canon for, lets say forever.
I have 3 expensive ef-s lenses. Maybe I should have bought L's... so I can have a red ring... and no wide angle.