I would be interested if this is a Hasselblad V mount lens like Andi mentioned.

-Son

kites4 wrote:
marcwilson wrote:
jade and kites4, the answers to your questiosn are in the previous pages of this thread.


Thanx Marc, Can you tell me either the previous page number where the actual cost is listed or do you know the cost
of the lens and can just reply with that info ??

I've gone to all the sites and have not found the info...

Stefan said the price of these Zeiss lense will be in par with the current Hasseblad lenses (in the similar range) ie 40mmf4 would be arround $6400CDN, 80mmf2.8 would be $2700CDN and 120mmf4 would be $4100CDN.
correct me if I had mis-interpreted what Stefan had mentioned.

Hi folks
The price is still to be discussed, but it is very likely in the according Hasselblad range as mentioned. And No - this is a 35mm dedicated lens, you can not mount this to a Hasselblad V-system body.We will have Canon and Nikon and Sony immediately, shortly after the Photokina we can deliver Leica R; Contax,PentaxK M42 of course and others. Hartblei already had all these mounts for their lenses before.

On Saturday I´ll shoot a real nice testing subject : I´ll get a Ford GT40 (New) in original paint (blue and orange) for a session, lets see how it comes out............

and about the wideangle zoom TS..... As I´m still primarily a photographer who is in the lucky situation now, that I can hope my crazy dreams will be built and sold and even earn some money you can shure bet I had similar thoughts. Give us some time folks. There are some of the best optics people in the world in Kiev, at Arsenal there have been 50000 workers in 1990. Now there are only 5000 working there permanently. We have a huge potential of extremely well educated and experienced engineers who are really willing to do a new start. Expect the very best from these guys. I´ll support them with anything that I can do.

Stay curious !

Stefan www.hartblei.de

Stefan Steib wrote: Give us some time folks. There are some of the best optics people in the world in Kiev, at Arsenal there have been 50000 workers in 1990. Now there are only 5000 working there permanently. We have a huge potential of extremely well educated and experienced engineers who are really willing to do a new start. Expect the very best from these guys. I´ll support them with anything that I can do.

I guess that sort of begs the question about how much Zeiss content and involvement are in these lenses. I would be much more interested in the participation of hundreds of Zeiss engineers in Oberkochen, rather than 5000 Arsenal workers in Kiev.

Who was responsible for what in the development and manufacture of these lenses? Is Zeiss only marketing the lenses? What's the story here? I would have to say that the more vague Zeiss leaves the answer to this question, the more people will assume that Zeiss has had only minimal involvement. As a result, they will be less willing to part with $4000 for what will be seen as just another Arsenal lens with another brand name attached.

@LotusM

well, you seem to have misunderstood. The Hartblei company is NOT Arsenal.
There are about 30 People now doing these lenses and Cameras. This is also the reason we have put a huge amount of our Capacitiy to develop these lenses. As is written on our Website and in the Pressrelease the whole optical unit is done by Carl Zeiss Germany. This is a module that is put into barrels which were developed by Hartblei according to the original standards and construction designs we were able to access. We got a very large amount of support by Zeiss to establish this project, we have changed nearly everything from what it was before. The quality enhancements are continually going on as we plan to keep up the excellent quality of the prototypes within the runnning production. This will not be easy, but we have the huge advantage that we can hire some of the best and experienced people of former Arsenal who have worked in aerospace and weapons technology, where also in the USSR quality NEVER was to be discussed. Then there is the fact that additionaly to the transfer of technology, we also have given this project a large amount of experience in building superrotator technology for the last years.
The combination of German Lenses, Russian Mechanics and new Management has already done some really impressive things. This also gave Zeiss the Impression that they should give us a chance and present this at Photokina.
They would not do this if there were any doubts.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan www.hartblei.de

Stephan,

First off I'd like to say that I wish you and the company the best of luck....

I think its a good idea to upgrade these lens systems with better glass and better
materials and of course better engineering....

But having said this, Luck you will need.... If the priceing is like being suggested here
in the thousands of dollars, I just don't see you selling too many of these at those prices...

If on the other hand the price say comes in at or slightly lower than say the Canon lens...

Then you have a better chance....

Stefan Steib wrote:well, you seem to have misunderstood. The Hartblei company is NOT Arsenal.

Well, that was the impression you gave by suggesting that 5000 people from Arsenal would be working on this. I would suggest that in the future you not use any references to Arsenal. It does not help you in any way. It does not matter how capable they actually are. It just matters what your potential customers think.


Stefan Steib wrote:As is written on our Website and in the Pressrelease the whole optical unit is done by Carl Zeiss Germany. This is a module that is put into barrels which were developed by Hartblei according to the original standards and construction designs we were able to access.

Where does it say this on your website? I have read both the German and English versions. Sorry, I could not find it. Is there some other press release that is not on your website (http://www.hartblei.de/)? Or is this press release actually available somewhere else and we do not yet have a link to it?

Now just to be clear and everything is fully understood, what exactly do you mean by, "the whole optical unit is done by Carl Zeiss Germany"? Does this mean Zeiss designed it, or does it mean that Zeiss actually manufactures the optical unit and the lens elements in Germany at Zeiss owned and operated facilities? Are the lens elements installed in the lens barrel by Zeiss and then sent to Hartblei for the mechanism, or are the lens elements produced by Zeiss installed in the lens barrel by Hartblei?

Finally, are the finished lenses in Kiev subject to the same Zeiss quality control oversight and procedures implemented for Zeiss lenses produced at Cosina and Kyocera facilities?

Hartblei mechanics are very good. While the design of the Hartblei/Zeiss lenses are changed, I'm confident the new design will be as good or better. The finish on the Hartblei is good, but not what most photographers are accustomed. Stefan stated that the new lens will have a different coating..

Stefan, I applaud your efforts and your company's efforts to bring quality lenses to the market. That having been said, I have used T/S lenses from both Canon and Nikon. From personal experience, the Nikon T/S is probably one of the sharpest lenses made, flare resistant, CA resistant, great color rendition, and no vignetting. They have managed to make an extremely competent mass produced product. I would be interested in seeing comparison between your similarly spec'ed lens and the difference in performance and resolving power.

While the Canon 24 3.5L is suboptimal, the 90mm TS is quite good and the Nikkor 85 is superb. A Zeiss wide angle TS would have little competition, but your mid tele must overcome the law of diminishing returns. If it is only marginally better than an already stellar product, it seems like it would attract more technicians or pixel peepers more than actual working professionals given multiple fold price increase. I'm just wondering the actual viability of such a business model in an age when the queen of boutique lenses, Leica is fighting bankruptcy. Despite the handfull of proponents on this board, the vast un-tapped market of emerging photographers are buying lenses for under $2000. If your company only cares about these elite few 35mm users, who have not yet jumped to the P45 phaseback, or use a 35mm in conjunction with their digital back, then I am not your target audience so ignore me.

I would not want the quality of your lenses compromised, nor is price necessarily the issue, but if you want to convince consumers like me, show us that the lenses are MUCH better. We need comparisons, we need to know that other options are so inferior, your $4000 lens is the sensible option, because that's the only time I buy a lens more expensive than a grand.

Anyhoo it's just a thought...

First of all - thanks for your comments because they are valuable for us.

Now about the facts.
The Lenses as groups are completely made in Germany by Carl Zeiss, whereas the Barrel (thats the Metall which holds the Lenses) is made in Kiev from the same Aluminium that Zeiss uses, the parts are sent to Germany and anodized black at Carl Zeiss. The assembly is then completely done in the Ukraine, controlled by measurement equipment supplied by Zeiss. Do we hold up to the Cosina Standard ? I hope we do at least that.

Now for the comparison lenses: pretty short list as there really is none with the exact same feature of superrotation. period.

If you work more with tilt you will know that the image is also moving, to compensate that without having to move the camera you need a slight shift adjustment to stay exactly in your layout.
Now as this can be accomplished by other fixed function TS lenses in some cases, as soon as you have perspektive coming in and sharpness to be applied to a sujet you need the freedom to put it where you need it. Now with the canon or Nikon you have not much choice (you can open screws with the canons and readjust it in 90 " steps as there are 4 screws in each corner) now do a catalog of different stuff with different angles and perspectives. either you need a good screwdriver or a superrotator.
I have already several orders here for the prototypes which will sell after Photokina, all came in during the last 3-4 days when people got aware of the lenses
.
The deal will be a 10-15 % Rebate to the (still to be announced) listprice, as well as a guarantee that we will treat theses customers as specially supported field testers until the final product is available. If anbody wants to switch later he will be able to do so at no add. cost.

I think we will find our customers. Sinar by the way sells the same 40mmIF as Digital lens for Highresolution Backs, I think our price will be extremely competitive compared to that.

Stefan www.hartblei.de

shirozina wrote:
Unfortunatley the 40mm with only 12mm of shift is not going to get many architectural photographers interested




Zeiss's last model of the Hasselblad 40mm, the 40/IF lens was reported to be a quantum leap over the previous 40, even better than the legendary Contax Zeiss PC35 CY with its 10mm of shift.

I can the lenses flipping right now. Sell my Canon 45TSE and my CZ PC35 for the Hartblie 40!

Shades of Guy Mancuso!

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 11:59 AM GMT

About the 40mm IF quality: Believe it. It´s a fact.

BTW. Arsenal does and has done more than the cameras and lenses that you may know. They are still assembling stuff like rocket warheads guidesystems with optical target recognition and more things they don´t talk about.
Further in Kiev also is Planemaker Antonov - about the same situation as arsenal , but already improving.These guys have built the largest airplanes in the world-being able to transport 300 tons of equipment, still one of the best ever built airplanes.
I feel it is only fair to do not judge people of the mistakes they (or their political leaders )have done in the past, but look what they do now and further into the future.
I want to give back these guys the chance to do their very best craftsmanship and be proud of it. Maybe this is even more important than money

Stefan

pookipichu wrote:
I'm just wondering the actual viability of such a business model in an age when the queen of boutique lenses, Leica is fighting bankruptcy.

Could you give a source for this claim?

Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 05:26 PM GMT (Reason: Correction)

Hermes, French, I think

Hermes is a french design house, and sold. The buyer already held 24% of Leica stock or something like that, I think. From the sounds of it, it was a good thing. Hermes sounded like they didn't want to invest anything in Leica.

John, could you quote a source for the bankruptcy claim? I am asking because from all that I have read, this is all at least two years back, and I don't think they were ever in the equivalent of chapter 11, but just under heavy pressure. More recently, they have been stable, to my knowledge, if somewhat lacklustre, except the DMR.

jjlphoto wrote:
shirozina wrote:
Unfortunatley the 40mm with only 12mm of shift is not going to get many architectural photographers interested




Zeiss's last model of the Hasselblad 40mm, the 40/IF lens was reported to be a quantum leap over the previous 40, even better than the legendary Contax Zeiss PC35 CY with its 10mm of shift.

I can the lenses flipping right now. Sell my Canon 45TSE and my CZ PC35 for the Hartblie 40!

Shades of Guy Mancuso!

I can tell you that I may one day get a Hartblei TS lens. I don't have any predisposition against Ukraine products whatsoever. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I will wait to see what Hartblei can actually achieve with their lenses.

On the other hand there is no way I will give up my CZ 35PC. This is a truly special lens (Thanks Bathman for a LNIB copy!) and it would be stupid to think I need one more lens, not in addition to, but instead of this crown jewel.

Just My Humble Opinion

Woody Spedden
Great state of Colorado

Edited by jjlphoto on Sep 22, 2006 at 11:59 AM GMT

Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.

Now something else about using a Hartblei Zeiss Superrotator.

Yesterday I had an interesting experience about another photographer approaching to me when I was shooting some architecture. I mean he spotted the 40mm in shifted and tilted position, it´s a really BIG lens and it shows itself to be different.
He was so curious about it and asked me several questions and we got 2-3 other bystanders, all Hobby photographers which were lively discussing about this "lens monster". Their overall tenor was this to be clearly professional equipment which shows to be expensive but impressive.
Now remember about your own customers who may also be bystanders when you are shooting. Maybe we should make the barrels even bulkier.......

Stefan www.hartblei.de

jjlphoto wrote:
Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/

The article you quote is from 3 August, 2005. There is no indication whether Leica's financial position has improved or deteriorated in the intervening year.

Stefan Steib wrote:
Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.

Not really a fair comparision as this include ALL of Carl Zeiss' businesses not just camera lenses, which is really a small portion of the total overall. And if it was just cameras and camera lensesas Leica's is, it would probably be just as bad as Leica. Without the various Contax lines over the past 2 years and without Hasselblad (and for all intents and purposes without Rollei as well), there are hurting as well. The trickle of sales from Zeiss Ikon, ZM, and ZF lenses isn't making up for that -- Wow! They sold out the first run of 1500 Zeiss Ikon bodies!! ;-) . And the royalty they get from Sony for their use the Zeiss name on the Sony P&S digicams is not significant. I would be very surprised is they got as much as a dollar per camera. Photography at Carl Zeiss is not in much better shape than Leica. Leica, I believe has the better strategy moving foward but Zeiss' photography business can be subsidized by the rest of Carl Zeiss' businesses (of course we don't really know what is going on with Contax, but I don't expect the ZA lenses to be big sellers, or provide much revenue back to CZ -- Zeiss' involvement with them is apparently marginal as they are not even Zeiss designs).

Lotusm50 wrote:
jjlphoto wrote:
Leica was seriously flirting with filing for bankruptcy two years ago, but 2005 looked like it might be okay, but one of their major investors Hermes, recently bailed out. Now they are seriously fighting off bankruptcy

http://global.japandesign.ne.jp/EXPRESS/050803/

The article you quote is from 3 August, 2005. There is no indication whether Leica's financial position has improved or deteriorated in the intervening year.

Stefan Steib wrote:
Luckily Zeiss is in a total different, namely excellent position.
Zeiss has achieved Sales of EUR 2.22 bn Total with 11,476 employees in
2004 / 2005 on 15 different locations. This is a growth of ~10 % against year 2000 numbers with 2000 less workers.

Zeiss also has the advantage of producing the world's best cine lenses for professional use. These lenses which sell for upwards of $50,000 per copy, provide a solid revenue stream, and a stream which does not exist at Leica.

Woody

Not really a fair comparision as this include ALL of Carl Zeiss' businesses not just camera lenses, which is really a small portion of the total overall. And if it was just cameras and camera lensesas Leica's is, it would probably be just as bad as Leica. Without the various Contax lines over the past 2 years and without Hasselblad (and for all intents and purposes without Rollei as well), there are hurting as well. The trickle of sales from Zeiss Ikon, ZM, and ZF lenses isn't making up for that -- Wow! They sold out the first run of 1500 Zeiss Ikon bodies!! ;-) . And the royalty they get from Sony for their use the Zeiss name on the Sony P&S digicams is not significant. I would be very surprised is they got as much as a dollar per camera. Photography at Carl Zeiss is not in much better shape than Leica. Leica, I believe has the better strategy moving foward but Zeiss' photography business can be subsidized by the rest of Carl Zeiss' businesses (of course we don't really know what is going on with Contax, but I don't expect the ZA lenses to be big sellers, or provide much revenue back to CZ -- Zeiss' involvement with them is apparently marginal as they are not even Zeiss designs).