don't know if everyone has seen this press release:

http://www.hartblei.de/english.html

I figure someone will get excited about it.

I heard a couple years ago that Zeiss was very much intrigued by Hartblei's Super-Rotator design and had a few examples to study. It looks like they liked it enough to adapt 3 of their Hasselblad lens designs to it and offer it for 35mm cameras.

What isn't clear is who is selling these lenses, Zeiss or Hartblei? And where will they be made? Regardless, this does kind of signal Hartblei's entry into the big time (or at least acceptance as a legitimate producer/supplier).

The only question that remains is how much will these lenses cost. If they are priced like the Hassy equivalents, expect them to cost around $2000-$3500 (depending on the lens). It will be interesting to see how they compare to my 45mm Hartblei Super Rotator -- no doubt comparisons will be made both here and in the print media.

EOS mount on the Hartblei too for under $700 U.S. new. (I mean mount, l 45mm lens and hood)
I've ordered one to look. Only heard good things about the Hartblei glass, So I'm not too excited about what the price will be with actual zeiss glass. Historically I believe there is a connection between these two companys on the zeiss "family tree".
I'm curiuos how it will feel/look compared to the Canon 90 TSE. I don't have the Canon 45 to compare.
Anyway, the new lenses are 645 and I assume the one I get is smaller for ff 35mm.

The one that's interesting is the 40mm. Unfortunately, it's only f4. It's a lot easier to focus Canon's 45mm at f2.8, than it's going to be to focus a Zeiss 40mm at f4. That said, the Canon, which I think is overall a great lens, is soft in the extremeties when shifted and has CA with any shift. If the Zeiss takes care of the CA problem and is sharp through a 12 degree shift, it would be worth looking at.

Just to clarify I ordered a 45mm F3.5 Super Rotator for EOS, not a new lens, I believe.
httivals is talking about the new lens, I believe
I would be surprised if I had trouble focusing a 45mm 3.5. But as a 4x5 and 6x17 shooter I am willing to do things like sit under a dark cloth for five minutes while in public. So perhaps what the 4.0 will take is commitment to the craft

More seriously, I'm an "equally blurry then stop down" kinda of guy. I'm not planning on using this lens for technical product shots At a point a view camera makes much more sense.

dcmiller wrote: Historically I believe there is a connection between these two companys on the zeiss "family tree".

It is quite possible that the factory where the Hartblei lenses are produced is filled with equipment pilfered from the Zeiss factory in Germany at the end of WWII and brought to the Soviet Union.

Some clarifications:
The new 40mm and the older 45mm are 6x6 lenses that fit MF and/or 35mm cameras. The advantage on 35mm is staying away from the edge of the image circle. 82mm filter size on the 45mm.

Mike reviewed the less expensive 35mm Hartblei:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/367685
This lens has a 62mm filter size, and I believe is designed for a 35mm camera only. He reported edge sharpness problems, which should be avoided with the larger image circle of the 40 and 45.

The pdf in the Zeiss press release says the new lens uses Zeiss, not Hartblei glass.

Lotusm50 wrote:
dcmiller wrote: Historically I believe there is a connection between these two companys on the zeiss "family tree".

It is quite possible that the factory where the Hartblei lenses are produced is filled with equipment pilfered from the Zeiss factory in Germany at the end of WWII and brought to the Soviet Union.


This PDF sheds some light:
http://www.digitalfoto-trainer.de/Hartblei-Zeiss%20Superrotator.pdf

Hartblei modifies Kiev lenses which are/were made on machinery taken over from Zeiss after WWII.


On another note, I have the current Hartblei 80mm Super Rotator and I'm not really impressed with it's optics. It is multi coated but the coating seems to be far less efficient than we are used to from todays Japanese or German glass. Contrast is low and it flares very very easily. Sharpness is decent, but nothing to be thrilled about.
The mechanics are on the other hand pretty good with very smooth focus. The rotating is a bit fiddly because the stops don't lock reliable. Shifting is very tight, especially at the end of the range.

All in all I guess I'd go for one with Zeiss glass in it although I'd prefer some refined locking of the rotation stops.

MichaD wrote:This PDF sheds some light: http://www.digitalfoto-trainer.de/Hartblei-Zeiss%20Superrotator.pdf

I'm not sure I totally agree with their market analysis in the pdf (at the very least, there is more than one medium format player left).

Going through it made me remember one thing, however, and this was probably the genesis of these particular lenses. I remembered that about 2 or 3 years ago, Hartblei was offering to convert your 80mm Hassleblad lens into a Super Rotator. This was interesting, but I imagine that few people thought that sending their Hassy lenses to the Ukraine was a secure proposition. So now, instead of converting the lenses, they have now formally partnered with Zeiss to get Zeiss lenses directly and build them into their Super Rotator lens barrels directly. Assembly in the Ukraine will certianly keep costs down, but I wonder if Zeiss will be implementing their quality control in the factory there. Quality levels at Arsenal/Hartblei are not great, and far below those of say, Cosina whose production of some Zeiss lenses have been rejected at rates of 70% by Zeiss. It will be interesting to see what combination of price and quality will be present in these lenses. Are these Hatblei lenses that use Zeiss lens elements, or are these actual Zeiss lenses that just use the Hartblei Super Rotator mechanism? From the pictures, they look like the former.

Michael, I'm not faniliar with the 80mm Hartblei. What is the filter size? Here's the price list in Ebglish I'm looking at. It does not seem to include all products:
http://tinyurl.com/fulg9
I would certainly prefer the zeiss glass, depending on pricing.

Yes, the market analysis is "optomistic". It looks like a power point presentation.

The pdf says "Optics by Karl Zeiss", so to me that is clear.

I'm confident that Zeiss isn't going to put out a highly variable product.

It's this one http://www.kievcamera.com/product.php?ID=166
I defenetely paid less for mine, don't remember how much exactly though.

The Hasselblad 40mm went for about 5000$, I am curious how the Hartblei T/S will be priced

the pdf really does miss one big point.
sure these lenses may well be great shift / tilt options (i.e. view camera movements) for 35mm dslr.
the pdf basically seems to say the view camera is dead..etc etc.
well what if you want these movements with a wide angle lens!!
40mm is not a wide angle on a 35mm camera so for work such as interior, exterior, architcture etc, it is most oten that you need these movements (shift especailly) at the wider end..so what do we do for that..it is the canon 24tse or view cameras.

so as much as like the sound of these lenses, and they certaily may well replace the canon tse at 45 and 90 in terms of image quality..their claim regarding view cameras is a little misleading...howevr good the 35mm dslr get, in terms, of image quality, they can not compete with view cameras because of the lack of very low distorting high image quality wide angle shift options.

The new lenses, yes
The older 45mm and 65mm were intended for medium format. Given the old lenses close grouping, I would guess these were designed for Architectural shooting on 6x6. There probably isn't wider than 40mm on the new lenses because Hartblei's TS design doesn't allow it.

After some further research it appears that Hartblei buys its glass from Arsenal. Hartblei currently seems to have two lines of superrotator lenses - 35mm and MF. Both lines are inexpensive, with the 35mm line apparently not having glass quality that would be acceptable for most users of better Japanese and German glass.

The Hartbei assembly seems solid. I would expect these lenses to be assembled in the Ukraine. I'm also expecting not too bad of a price. Zeiss and Hartblei can make a nice margin per lens and sell a lot of these things at a moderate price.

The 35mm Hartblei 80mm 2.8 superrotator is $299 new on ebay. So what will this cost with zeiss glass? I don't think $3000.

Hello anybody from Munich

I have just returned from Kiev with the new lenses 40mm,80mm and 120mm in my luggage which I will showcase on the Photokina. The design is NOT like the old Hartbleis, we decided to go with the new Zeiss ZF Look. The quality of these lenses is dramatically improved, this is what we have worked for the whole last year.(for example the surfice finish is like Hasselblad/Zeiss anodized black-same Quality). The lenses are -simply spoken a photographers dream come true. NO light falloff (all tested with my 5D), razorsharp normal position with even field at open aperture, beautiful color rendition and saturation-nearly nonexistant glare in going directly against the sunlight (well itīs T* remember!). The tilt function with this lens is spectacular. I have added some 14 sample pics on the bottom of the hartblei.de german+english pages (reduced size but this does not matter much-youīll see what I mean). Those shots where all taken with a first sample 80mm, now that I have the final lenses Iīll do some more product shots and architecture with the 40mm. Against what all people tend to say, me having used 8x10 view cameras for nearly 30 years, I almost never used wideangles, we did about anything with 300mm, 360mm or 480mm. As Studio photographer I can say these lenses are a dream come true with the actual 35mm full format chips.For fashion the tilt effekt is even more stunning. You have to see this: crisp and sharp and vibrant. Everbody is invited to see this on Photokina on 2x30 " Cinema displays using Apple aperture on the new quad 3.0Ghz. I canīt wait to start using this, even if nobody would showup(which I doubt...) I would have a LOT of fun.

See you all in Cologne
Stefan Steib www.digitalfoto-trainer.de www.hartblei.de

Stefan-

I think we all agre that these are very interesting and attractive lenses. Your sample images do show off what it can do. Any word on what these lenses will cost?

If I make it over to Photokina, I will certainly come by for a closer look.

Edited by Lotusm50 on Sep 11, 2006 at 04:04 PM GMT

Well, I believe my fantasy of the lens being under $2K is fading...........

Guy Mancuso wrote:
Stefan just e-mailed me back after my request and can make them for the Leica R mount. prices after Photokinia and i said there are 10 DMR owners that would like one

Time to pony up boys.

Love spending your money.

Another public service announcement brought to you by your friendly, neighborhood Leica pusher ...

(I started out with ONE Zeiss. Now I have 4 Leica R's ... )

Stefan, thank you for the info and sample images, these lenses look to have a lot of potential, I just hope I can afford one (or two, or all three).

Are there any future plans for a wider version, something between 18mm and 28mm?

Thanks again,
-Rob

Great to see samples. This is a great move by Zeiss and Hartblei. If only they could do the same for some medium format mounts

These are bound to be absolutely amazing. Even the 45mm Super Rotator with the old glass was an incredibly versatile lens. With Zeiss glass they will be perfected.

I'm really looking forward to these lenses as well, particularly the 40. If they can keep the price below $2k it'll be even better.

Lotusm50 wrote:
MichaD wrote:This PDF sheds some light: http://www.digitalfoto-trainer.de/Hartblei-Zeiss%20Superrotator.pdf

I'm not sure I totally agree with their market analysis in the pdf (at the very least, there is more than one medium format player left).

Going through it made me remember one thing, however, and this was probably the genesis of these particular lenses. I remembered that about 2 or 3 years ago, Hartblei was offering to convert your 80mm Hassleblad lens into a Super Rotator. This was interesting, but I imagine that few people thought that sending their Hassy lenses to the Ukraine was a secure proposition. So now, instead of converting the lenses, they have now formally partnered with Zeiss to get Zeiss lenses directly and build them into their Super Rotator lens barrels directly. Assembly in the Ukraine will certianly keep costs down, but I wonder if Zeiss will be implementing their quality control in the factory there. Quality levels at Arsenal/Hartblei are not great, and far below those of say, Cosina whose production of some Zeiss lenses have been rejected at rates of 70% by Zeiss. It will be interesting to see what combination of price and quality will be present in these lenses. Are these Hatblei lenses that use Zeiss lens elements, or are these actual Zeiss lenses that just use the Hartblei Super Rotator mechanism? From the pictures, they look like the former.
on zeiss-site we can read that only 21mm zm is made in asia. all the rest made in germany.